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Payment Dispute with DedicatServer.RO
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I don't know about other countries but in Sweden, a requirement for the crime "stealing" is that the crime was committed intentionally.
No such thing as unintentional stealing.
Might be different in the U.S. but that sounds weird.
(a) which part of "he took money for a service not provided" did you not get or fail to understand as not correct?
(b) Even if, assumed, I myself didn't control everything always and missed that they still got money - wouldn't an honest non-fraudulent provider simply answer "sorry, just an oversight. You'll be refunded"?
(c) our deal wasn't monthly but yearly (in advance) in the first place.
I understand that and agree. In fact I considered it quite possible that dedicatserver didn't defraud me intentionally but that it simply was a mishap (which I would not consider fraud).
But whatever the law says it's still fact that they took money from me without providing a service. The decisive point in my eyes was "will they refund?"; in fact, although my impression of dedicatserver certainly isn't the best I actually expected that they'd say "sorry, a mishap, we'll refund you" and the whole case would be closed and everyone could be content. But alas, they chose a different route ...
A honest provider hast answer
Open a paypal case to see if you have authorized these payments or not and post the answer from Paypal here
You will get your money back after you open a case on Paypal and post their response here to clarify whose fault it was.Even if Paypal won't give you a refund i will give you the money.
Paypal case : Subscription ID: I-BUMC7RBTFE1N - maybe you need
You are still not open til now a Paypal case!!!! but you denigrate the company over and over again...
Onspite of all help from provider op does not want to go thru with thr proposed solution.
At this point it's fair game to change title of the post to jsg is a scammer
/s
(a) Again, you are not in a position to put conditions to me. I absolutely will not jump through loops you put up for me.
(b) wrong. I did contact Paypal and "opened a case". But, now you can laugh about me, I've never had to do that, so possibly I did something wrong in the process. But I do have a paypal case number from them.
(c) I will not publish Paypal's response or anything else like that. For a simple reason: You demanded it. I don't care less about the money than you should care about the consequences of your "I don't provide any service anymore to that (now former) customer but I'll take the money anyway, hehe" action.
BS! Even he himself doesn't dispute that he took my money without providing a service to me. His (legally invalid) argument is that not he withdrew the money but that I payed it to him.
Taking money for a service without providing that service = fraud.
If you got a subscription in PayPal, you got to kill it.
You miss the same it's on you, not on provider
Plus go ahead with thr dispute if you feel you are so entitled.
@jsg Don't worry, we also receive the answer from Paypal
And you are calling the provider fraudulent for your mistake. Not theirs (not directly I feel) and this is not a new thing here.
Well, yeah, that's somewhat correct.
But in this case, you've authorized a merchant to charge you via your PayPal Subscription / Automatic Payment.
I would suggest to just work this out professionally, in private, with the provider as I'm sure they're more than willing to refund you.
Guys, this is easy to fix -- personally and privately and professionally. This doesn't need to be a drama. It's an easy mistake to make on both sides, now it's about how to reconcile a simple discrepancy and not turn this into something it doesn't need to be.
Not quite. The authorization is to charge me via paypal for a service. Significant difference. I didn't receive the service since many months - and provider knew that.
No. I disagree. Charging a former customer via Paypal for a service not provided is fraud.
And btw, a company is held to a higher standard than a private person. A company must know - and act accordingly - when a contract ends and further payments are not justified.
Plus, I did provide a chance to settle that issue by opening a ticket. It was @dedicatserver's decision to not respond and simply offer a refund but to delete my account.
It's fraud, plain and simple.
My host mentions this in T&Cs (cause I assume it happens a lot inc for me selling digital memberships not hosting related):
They did not 'took' the money from your account. You/PayPal sent them the money, in accordance with the created subscription.
Someone who has been active on LET for so long should be familiar with the concept of PayPal subscriptions and allow the provider sufficient time to respond before opening a passive-aggressive post (title -> post content, lol). Although, drama is always welcome
jsg, please roast me, thanks.
The only way they can pull money from a PayPal is if you had setup a recurring billing/subscription. If you selected the PayPal subscription button while purchasing the VPS, which is a small button with the PayPal logo that has small text saying subscription (there are usually 2 buttons, one for one time and one for subscription, after you have checked out), it is likely that you have mistakenly setup a subscription instead of a one time payment. It also tells you that you are setting up a subscription at the final part of the payment, but it is likely that you missed that too. There is absolutely no way they could randomly pull money from your account without this recurring billing/subscription OR a billing agreement, you should know this as a VPS reviewer.
WHMCS sometimes doesn't cancel these subscriptions, and instead adds the overpayments to account credit instead. This is likely what happened in this case, I personally don't like PayPal subscriptions because of this reason. They are inflexible and sometimes WHMCS breaks with them, just ask @PulsedMedia. I doubt they were intentionally trying to defraud you, but rather, WHMCS didn't cancel the automatic payments (for whatever reason) and you didn't realize you setup a subscription with them. The PayPal subscriptions are buggy and are generally a mess to deal with. We (and a few other providers on the forum) use billing agreements, but it is extremely hard to get approved for. PayPal subscriptions are inflexible & buggy, but it is the only way to accept automatic payments through PayPal without being a large enough hosting provider to get approved for billing agreements, which is the only reason why hosts use it.
That being said, the provider's response is immature, but I get their frustration as you immediately opened an LET thread with immediate accusations of them committing fraud or stealing in the title, when this is usually just a case of WHMCS breaking or PayPal being stupid (both companies/software are stupid in their own ways), especially because you did not give them enough time to respond to a ticket. You gave them a single day to respond, and that's definitely not enough time. For a billing issue like this, I would wait up to 2-3 weeks and then start hurling accusations of "fraud," especially since billing issues usually require someone higher up in a company to deal with. I highly doubt someone at the company manually charged you, it is likely that this is a failure of an automated system. A provider usually doesn't manually go and cancel subscriptions or keep track of EVERY VPS/payment, that's usually done automatically by WHMCS for a reason.
A thread like this can hurt a host's reputation in the long run, and the title is obviously clickbait given that in the post itself you say that you still aren't sure if it's fraud. I'm not trying to defend the provider, as their subsequent responses are quite frankly unacceptable and petty, but I'm just trying to give context on why this might happen and that you probably shouldn't open threads like these in the future WITHOUT waiting for a provider response, and you need to stop with the evidently clickbait titles that could damage an otherwise legitimate company for an honest mistake.
It is not a fraud if you think so/ feel that way.
Its unfortunate that this happened due to buggy software (validated by plethora users/ providers alike about WHMCS).
If you had money taken away for "months", are you saying you are unable to monitor your finances and keep a track of whats happening?
And then, one fine day you decide to brew some drama and gain some sympathy.
Sure, we are sorry for the loss, but, provider is NOT a fraud (yes, thats the fact, no one is feeling this - unlike you), and yes, i hope you have learned something here and atleast got the "subscription cancelled" on Paypal. If not, there is little anyone can do here.
Uhm, I did not tell Paypal to just send money for the fun of it. Paypal was authorized (indeed my mistake it seems) to send money to dedicatserver for a service provided to me when charged for that service.
As said service was terminated long ago there was no basis for charging me via Paypal.
No matter how anyone turns it: charging via Paypal for a service not provided = fraud.
Did dedicatserver defraud me intentionally? Probably not although their reaction suggests they did indeed but that can also be explained by dedicatserver being well known to behave like an a__hole. But if it was done by mistake or due some WHMCS weakness/error/bug/[whatever], then why didn't they simply say so and offer a refund? And that also holds true here. Yes, I do understand that I could have waited a day or two after opening the ticket instead of creating this thread but still, they anyway had the option to say "sorry, mistake/WHMCS problem, we'll refund you" - but they didn't. So it's fraud, simple as that.
I'm trying not to take sides here, but they are not the only one being known for being an a__hole.
I don't know if you have standing orders (or any international banking services currently) where you are, but a standing order is probably the most similar thing to a PayPal subscription.
It sends money to a recipient on a specified schedule. The recipient doesn't charge or request it.
You made a mistake @jsg, and one you surely were already aware of. You've been around long enough to know how PayPal subscriptions work and that they're a total PITA for everyone involved.
Should they refund you? Probably. Should you have posted this thread? Probably not before they had a reasonable chance to reply to your ticket.
The word "fraud" implies intentional deception. It's a strong word to accuse someone of, and something that any person would take exception to. Enough people have indicated this is likely a problem with WHMCS, etc., so why not shake hands, ramp down the rhetoric, take a refund and be done with it?
And the great service you've done for everyone is the lesson for us all to double-check our PayPal recurring payment agreements.
Definitions always take different meanings when someone is not willing to accept things.
Good luck @jsg
Mods, so, the title remains the same here? We definitely have more clarity now.
@jsg
What do not you understand :
you could also open a thread( to solve faster your problem, although I haven't been on LET for about 6 months and I haven't posted anything since taxes were imposed) , but not with this title and not with insinuations and denigrations.
In my opinion, you wanted to do harm intentionally.
The fact that you still haven't opened a case on PayPal shows me that I was right.
The fact that you keep saying that it doesn't matter if you made a mistake or not the company is to blame shows that you are not mature enough to admit a mistake and you don't deserve to be taken into account.
Yes, I guess there are also some people considering me to be an a__hole. No problem, that's life.
Yes I did. And that error was to trust dedicatserver/astimp s.r.l..
Yay, let's get philosophical ...
The word "fraud" implies different things depending on perspective, field (e.g. legal), persons involved, etc.
IF I were bringing a criminal case against him, your point might be relevant.
Looking from the perspective of a defrauded person, fraud is, for instance, when you paid for something you didn't get. And it's in the nature of things that fraudsters and their friends have a quite different perspective (I don't care about).
Objective fact is that some money that belongs to me is in the pocket of dedicatserver and that he didn't provide a service for it and hence didn't earn it.
Objective fact is also that out of a set of options how to handle it, he chose confrontation and basically "FY!" instead of saying "sorry, an honest mistake, I'll refund you".
Finally and importantly, an objective fact is that an honest provider does refund money he somehow got and didn't earn. Obviously dedicatserver is not an honest provider.
correct attitude
sarcasm
with the same attitude you write on LET too
It's not philosophy, it's Webster's.
By default, fraud implies intentional deception. It's not fraud if he didn't intend to do it. It was most likely a mistake.
And BTW, while we're at it, to accuse someone of fraud without evidence is an act of defamation. You are attacking his reputation, livelihood, his business, and in the US, technically, he could sue you for libel if he wanted to be a real jerk. I don't know how the libel laws work in other countries, but the word "fraud" is actually a very strong accusation to make. If you can't prove intention, you should retract that word.
In any case, both of your responses are less than professional, so it's a bunch of negativity being thrown around and personal feelings getting in the way of common sense.
He's obviously upset at the accusation and your approach, and his system obviously made a mistake. You're upset at the money and his poor responses and approach, and you obviously did sign up for a recurring billing agreement and didn't cancel that inside of PayPal (which can be construed by some as a mistake -- that's arguable). Mistakes on both sides, why not just end it like sophisticated mature adults and be done with it? Persisting is making your own reputations worse.
To the mods, this thread title is not accurate and should be changed IMO.
@jsg
Ok, I understand your points, but I would highly suggest refraining from making these types of threads in the future, immediately putting a provider on full blast for fraud without giving them a chance over tickets to respond within a reasonable time frame at all, especially because this is a common issue that happens at multiple hosting providers due to PayPal subscriptions + WHMCS being buggy.
PayPal subscriptions send money regardless of the factors, they cannot be modified and they are set to charge you on a certain, inflexible, interval (i.e. once on the 20th of every month). Sometimes these don't get cancelled properly, and mistake payments are made. This happens at a lot of hosting providers, and it's usually refunded to account credit (usually automatically by WHMCS) or back to the balance. They cannot manually charge you for a service on their own dates, it can only be charged on a very specific date (which is determined when you buy the VPS) and that date cannot be modified after the subscription has been made. Most providers put liability on the customer to properly cancel these recurring charges. It seems that you do not know how PayPal works.
This actually happened to me with Bitwarden last year, I got double charged for the service due to an improper PayPal subscription setup (I had 2 PayPal subscriptions instead of 1). I only noticed a year later, when I got double charged again and noticed this time, which they subsequently refunded because it was a recent payment. They did not reimburse me at all for last year's mistake. Is Bitwarden committing fraud? They are well respected in the community, should I make a thread like this and put them on full blast?
It worked out in this situation, because @dedicatserver_ro is immature and petty (from what I've seen in these responses), but in the future, please keep this in mind before opening a thread.
My comment on this:
Sometimes it does happen that a subscription just auto charge when it shouldn't. To me maybe it has happen once or twice while hosting with many providers. It usually doesn't.
Now I don't understand why op went straight to open this thread, but that's normal nowadays. But the insistence from the provider to instruct op to open a paypal case? I see this thread as a great marketing opportunity (always see the positive side of things). You could just ask for the ID of the transaction through PM and return the money, post evidence of returning it here and recommend the OP to take better care of subscriptions. That will certainly look professional and might get you one or two clients.
But you cancelled the service and their panel reflects this. There was no expectation of any service being provided.
In other words, you keep harping on about "fraud" when you mean theft; taking your money without authorization. Problem is, YOU authorized it.
The irony here is that YOU needed to say, "sorry, just an oversight. May I be refunded"?
So you went from paying annual PayPal payments to monthly ones just a few months ago? That needs more investigation.
I tried to explain the role intent has in law years ago to jsg, but he flat out refuses to learn. This is clear when he repeatedly says, redundantly, intentional fraud.
I will look on your garden now, gnome.