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@emg Don't apply for the job.
All you people, a company asks for an employe with a certain budget. Very clear and very fair. If you don't like the salary, the job or if you don't know the company, then, simply, don't apply. I cannot understand the attacks to the OP with arguments like "you are not as big as amazon or as old as cocacola", or "in my place, the salaries are at least $100K". He just posted a job offer, for whom is interested.
Salary vary between countries. As many have said, for some 1.7K is a very nice amount to receive monthly, while for others is just a week of salary. Education and Previous experience is also to be considered in the salary. If you have no experience and no education and 1.7K qualify under the minimum required by the country/state, then it might be completely fine.
No, they shouldn't post here because it is yet another externalized cost that we all end up paying for. I talked with Steve Jobs once, and I was very aware of the differences in value for each of our times spent in the conversation. The same is true when companies bother $100+/h experts with jobs that don't pay $100+/h. When you support EH in wasting the time of countless admins who can't work for $11/h you make the whole world worse off.
Because people live where they live. If an admin already lives in the UK, what the hell do you tell them as companies like EH stop supporting their local community? What's your plan for that displaced worker who no longer can make a decent living? The true picture of an economy is not measured simply by looking at how much a company profits in a global market.
Limiting economics to first-order S&D is simplistic. Just because you can get something supplied more cheaply elsewhere doesn't mean you benefit if the consequences of that action are fewer people employed locally who demand your services. The full lifecycle must be examined. There's a reason Henry Ford paid his workers enough to be able to afford the products they produced. It's astounding that so many have forgotten history's lessons of how a successful economy is run.
But who is really being exploited if the end result is the destruction of the local economy? Cutting costs alone is a moron's way of balancing the books. You need to look at the source of your income first, lest you end up biting the hand that feeds you.
People from the UK want more local jobs, but they buy servers from... France - because they are cheaper.
Here goes your local jobs.
Yes! Because those first-world infrastructures didn't come for free! Because exporting only cheap jobs don't allow the other countries to build their infrastructures up to the same levels. It's just the worst sort of exploitation. You need to look at the complete picture when you try to engineer an economy that way.
Again, you're not paying for the people, you're paying for the relative cost of living differences. Just admit you want foreign people to remain living in relative squalor, and in the process you're willing to also destroy your own country, too. That's the only real way you can justify paying so little for valuable skills. Otherwise, FFS, pay people at least what you would consider a living wage.
I am not planning to apply. Others are welcome, although I hope they do it will eyes open.
I merely wondered how @EvolutionHost planned to provide the training, vet potential employees who are far away, and how they plan to instill employee trust in them. I doubt that they will find employees with the requisite skills in their local area, but it is possible.
Those are fair and reasonable questions to ask. EvolutionHost is not compelled to answer, of course.
"I'm not about to go into the details, because I really don't know who it was for sure."
Have you ever been outside your own country? The terms you use - sweatshop, squalor, misery, etc. give the impression that you think everyone who is not in US/Japan/Western Europe is living in cesspool shacks and eating Oxfam rice, which is certainly not the case.
I mean, just look at those @cociu wedding pictures...
They're welcome to post here.
Your argument is specious...we could just as well say that the $1700/mo goes further in countries that aren't burdened by a huge overhead due to government regulation, common law tort systems, etc. Why is the cost of living higher in Japan, for example - it's not just that everyone has nicer lives, but rather that hundreds of millions are jammed into tiny islands where the price of a real estate is so high that its annual cost is typically >100% of annual income. You're oversimplifying economics.
And regardless...wtf? Someone's offering a job here. If you want to fight against the tide of globalization, LET isn't the place and someone's job offer isn't the place. I'd have more respect for your argument - which in some parts I agree with - if you'd opened it as a separate thread rather than trying to trash EH's job offer.
Median is not IT, I suggest you to start from 2500EUR for Europe region...
You know, I skimmed through the few pages in this thread and I am quiet surprised no one has asked the appropriate questions needed to even decide if this is a fair payment:
etc.
Again, these are things you should ask and get an answer too when applying for the job (if you are truly interested). Based on the answer to some of these questions that $1700.00 USD could really end up being say $2200.00 month in compensation if they provide for some of the above options.
I also have a feeling they would be willing to negotiate based on skill level and experience and are using $1700.00 as a baseline and they are assuming they will need to train you as well (mentions 2 weeks of paid training) which means they also may not be looking for level 3 techs, but entry level workers who they can train. In which case, again, $1700.00 may be a more than decent starting wage just getting your foot in the door.
Also, those who are just trying to get their foot in the door should look at it more as a paid learning experience instead of a job. Take the job for 6 months to a year, learn and then look for a 'better' job using your newly gained skills to leverage better pay in your next job.
This job would be good for a College student in an IT program wanting to get their foot in the door working in their field. While it may not buy you a Lambo, it can still be a more than reasonable amount for someone working there and then also attending college or for someone who has their housing subsidized for them.
TL:DR:
If you are serious about the job you need to ask more questions instead of making assumptions. Benefits if supplied can often be worth a lot of compensation, especially since you don't have to drive anywhere to work (so no vehicle related costs/fuel costs) for example. By being able to work from your house this also means if you have kids you don't have to pay for a babysitter and can be there to take care of them while you work. There are also many other benefits I haven't even mentioned, however, this should all be considered when applying for such a job.
my 2 cents.
Cheers!
Just for fun, in reply to @TheLinuxBug, sys admins will never have a Lambo (if you refer to the car). Sys admin is an average job unless you are the owner of a company which do provide sys admin services, in that case you are not only an admin. Is important to have realistic expectations.
SysAdmin is usually a job that is very crowded, too much people, anyone claim to be a sysadmin nowadays when in reality they are not. Same is happening with developers position. Because you are a kiddie that knows some html and css doesn't mean you are a dev... Those are not even programming languages.
@TheLinuxBug You're actually surprised no-one asked about pensions, health care and holidays?
If you are so quick to say that the amount is 'not enough' then yes, I would hope that someone would use enough brain cells to know that they should ask more questions.
If your implication is that you don't find people around here to have enough common sense to begin with, I won't dispute you there, but I am surprised it wasn't brought up during the previous 2 pages of discussion here.
Cheers!
No one has to know a programming language to be a "dev". If you develop something, you're a developer. If it's making a crappy website, are you not its developer? Same for system administration. Can you administrate systems? Congratulations!
I think it would be more appropriate to call people shitty developers, and shitty sys admins.
I suppose you only buy locally produced clothes, shoes, food, electronic goods? No?
Your understanding of economics lacks depth. Outsourcing may indeed to the collapse of local businesses performing THAT particular trade. This is the case with almost any manufactured goods. There is very little manufacturing in the UK relative to the size of the economy, and there is virtually no textiles work in any developed nation. Outsourcing destroyed those industries in the 'rich' countries but ultimately it works out for the better. People are forced to be more creative, more 'advanced' in order to stay ahead. Meanwhile the consumer can benefit through lower prices and the people in the more 'developing' countries can earn a better wage while they too move away from 'primary' production work.
Besides, $1,700 is a fair and reasonable salary for many in the developed world. In Lithuania, where I spend about 50% of my time, $1,700 is a GOOD wage for SysAdmins and Developers. To pay them as much is not exploitation and they do not live in squalor. You'd be better off living in Vilnius as a sysadmin making $1.7k than you would making $4k or even $5k in London. Based on living standards, I would say paying $4k in London would be more exploitative than $1.7k in Vilnius.
Besides, economies are made more efficient when left to their own devices. There is a natural balance that comes and protectionism (which is basically what you support) helps no one in an advanced/developed economy. Your views are not far from being down right xenophobic/racists.
I guess your answer to the question at the beginning of that post would be "ask the obvious".
I don't even imply that it was. But it is the case that a race to the bottom, by companies only seeking out the absolutely cheapest labor, does not suddenly make everyone parity with everyone else. It is sickening when people undercut citizens from their own economic pool simply to offer the least incremental improvement to citizens from another economic pool. That's abuse of trade.
Correlated with nothing, that's meaningless. In particular, "poverty" is usually a relative term.
Yes, the "burden" of not living in a hell hole. Again, if you find conditions in those other countries more to your liking, why not try to emigrate? EH is welcome to leave London and live in the place where that $1700 is a meaningful local income.
On the contrary. I'm asking people to consider all the hard facts. Everything doesn't just work for everyone equally everywhere at all times.
If you welcome them to post the offer, you should also welcome the discussion that follows. There are plenty of job boards EH could have used that don't allow feedback.
Who says this is what is happening?
Eastern Europe has far lower salaries to those in Western Europe. But the EU is a 'single market' so to speak. Are they in different pools or the same in your mind?
Who defines the boundaries of these pools you speak of? Does London constitute a single pool? So would it be morally wrong to outsource to Manchester?
It seems wrong to discriminate based solely on geography. And if geography is your problem, then what about immigration? If a SysAdmin from Poland cant get a decent job in his country, would it be better for him to take a job IN Germany? If so, why is that better?
If a company can cut costs, efficiency is improved and there benefits to that. You are essentially advocating protectionism and that artificially raised prices which may be harmful to the local economy.
Which again leads me back to.... borderline xenophobic.
Of course not. I never made the claim that all trade was bad. But the reality is that money flowing around the system can be tracked if you care enough, and you can determine if you're supporting businesses that support your business or if you're just exporting your wealth into a black hole.
Just the opposite. Because:
You are showing a lack of depth when you willfully refuse to plan for the consequences of that collapse. If we agree that some people will lose their jobs, it should be done in a way that transitions them to new jobs. It's the reliance on an "invisible hand" that is what lacks any real depth.
So long as no trade deficit is involved. That's the heart of the problem. What you pay is not the issue; the real issue is how the people who pay you make their money. If your neighbors are your customers, you harm yourself when you don't do business with them.
My point keeps getting hidden in plain sight. Open your eyes and think about what you're writing! EH is deciding that they get to enjoy those living standards of London, but not so for their lowly admins. This is the root inequality that is threatening to dismantle the last 50 years of having a middle class.
All historic evidence proves otherwise.
Science is true whether or not you wish to engage in motivated reasoning. And I find it hilarious that you think you can criticize me for attacking "the other" when my whole thesis has been about people who are not acting in their own self interest.
@ImpossiblyStupid
Ahh well you have indeed fell in to my trap whilst simultaneously avoiding my perfectly valid question about economic boundaries.
EH is looking to hire someone for 'low ball' money whilst being based in London. You think they should hire people in London because they are based there but you have no idea who their customer base is or where they are from and yet you feel they have some obligation to hire local London talent. Why? if they are 'exporting' their services to all over the world which is likely the case for many hosting companies, then why not 'outsource' labour?
And again, what is the difference between hiring someone in Manchester or Nottingham (both major UK cities with salaries well below London) or someone in Easter Europe. Who sets these economic boundaries? You? You conveniently ignore this point! And you have ignored the immigration question too.
For developed economies, it IS the case. For undeveloped economies, indeed, no so. But the UK is a developed economy.
You see your arguments are flawed because your assumptions are that the legal location of the business (possibly London) is where the business is economically active. But you simply cannot make this assumption. Many hosting companies re-sell services from others using servers located far far away.
My own company is based in Hong Kong, but most of our staff are located overseas. But then again 90% of our business is not local HK business. I also choose to live in Lithuania for 50% of my time and yet I have next to no economic interest in Lithuania.
So if I were to hire someone in Lithuania for the 'measly' $1,700 /month for sysadmin/dev work, would that be exploitative or not? Should I hire someone in HK or not? What is the morally correct decision here?
You know what I find hilarious? Your assumptions that people earning $1.7k must be 'lowly', living in 'squalor', 'poverty' or are being exploited. Your assumptions that because a company is registered in a particularly place they are economically active in that place. Your self-righteous double-standards and skewed perception of morality.
We live in a globalised world and the trend is continuing in that direction. Outsourcing in the IT field will 'liberate' (economically) more 'developing' economies and make that country richer. This has a domino effect and it is clearly observable as living standards over the last 20-40 years in developing countries (some are now consider developed and RICH.. like South Korea). I'm sorry but I have never seen any long term adverse affects to rich countries due to outsourcing and globalisation.
The ONLY negative I can see from globalisation is the possible loss in culture and heritage as we all become mixed into some weird fusion of everything. But that's a different issue.
I'm sorry you cannot see this.
My point was that it's LET.
"First World Infrastructures"? Are you so impossibly stupid to really think that countries that don't belong to your... "first world", are living in the stone age? Have you ever been outside your country or, even, your city?
Cuba (yes, Cuba, the living devil for the US) has an incredible public health system with research laboratories that are having more innovations per year discovering new treatments to diseases, than the US. Salaries? 1/10 from the US...
India's IT evolution makes technology there growing faster than in Western Europe with great innovations from scientists there. Salaries there? Well, you know...
China's telecommunication technology with giants like Huawai and ZTE, are the leaders of mobile phone evolution. Huawei presented the first 3G modem (dongle) ever, while other China mobile phone producers like Xiaomi or OnePlus are some of the best choices for our new mobile phone. Meanwhile, motorola mobility, the first world's American giant, has been bought by the chinese.
You want some more? Remote control was invented by Hungarians, Russian Boris Rosing invented in Moscow the cathodic tube for television (yes, the first tube TV as we new it till some years ago was a russian invention) e.g.
Really? Do you think that scientists from... "non first world countries" with salaries much more low than the US and UK, are not capable in just the same level like scientists in your... "first world"? And the infrastructure there is worse than yours?
Do you know that Romania, Czech, Denmark, South Korea and Belgium have much faster average internet speed for households than US and UK? And the cost there for a 100Mbps fiber line there is much cheaper than the US?
Take a look in this diagram, presenting the fastest (by country) 4g speeds:
YOU need to see the whole picture: "First world countries" are just having so much overrated costs of life, that the average citizen, even while earning much more than citizens from most of the other countries, are having worse quality level of living...
Who can determine if our salaries are too low or your salaries are too high? And, if I gain low income compared to, e.g., US, why Texas is selling gas to incredible low prices there while exporting it in multiplied price? It's just the globalization that allow you to control and regulate sections that your "first world country" has power too.
With your logic, your country can regulate the market using power (military, political etc.) and sell the third world overpriced products, but the third world is not allowed to sell you services in their price range! Nice!
A US company is selling hosting to a Greek customer. Should outsourced employers been paid with US salaries or Greek salaries? And the profits (aka the final cost) selling hosting should be relative to what a US company should pay to US workers or relative to the Greek's customer cost of living?
By your logic, should a US company sell cheap hosting, or cheap cars or cheap tv sets or cheap mobiles to Greece, or this is destroying Greek manufacturing and imports should be banned?
Stop feeding the troll, please
Actually, it is you who wants that! Granted, relocating to another country is - to most people - pretty scary stuff, but in reality, easily done. Especially if you already have a job offer there or have a source of income (e.g. working from home, running an online business) not tied to one particular location. FYI, there are many pretty civilized places on this Earth where a couple can live very comfortably on US$ 1700 plus still have US$ 500+ saved up every month! A few examples in no particular order: Belize, Philippines, Portugal, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Panama, Malaysia, Thailand, most places in Eastern Europe... take your pick
Actually, most people from the so-called "developed world" live where they choose to live. They have passports, easy access to most countries and, most importantly, skills in high demand around the world
You tell them: tough luck, stop whining, get out of their comfort zone and broaden their horizons to boot
Tell them to do a little homework and:
either upgrade their skills and find an altogether different job in high demand locally (like accounting maybe?) or
move somewhere else, where they can work and live comfortably using their existing skillset. And maybe learn a foreign language, too, while they're at it, thus increasing their skillset/value...
in 19/20 any case you show that you believe proves otherwise ill show you where it was government intervention that fucked it up. the market over-corrects itself to both extremes but it responds far more efficiently and far faster than any other force.
the market probably will over export jobs to the detriment of its own customer base. individual companies will struggle and go but because of this while others will thrive. the west has no mortgage on standards of living and the rest of the world is closing that gap.
education and freedom are the best things to allow people to improve their quality of life. you are advocating against freedom - as are many western governments - and this will bite us in the arse. governments cannot stop jobs flowing off shore and external countries from improving their quality of services and goods and in turn their quality of living.
and on another note - long term all western countries will very likely have higher and higher rates of unemployment. maybe thats a bad thing, maybe its a good thing...
eaven is not selling now , minimum 300 mpbs wich is asrrownd 2.30 eur/mo +20% VAT and up to 1gbps is selling this days for 10 eur/mo
and about 4g tehnologies the speed is in 21.6 mbps in RDS-RCS and Vodafone here in Romania. About salary .... hmmm , depend of how to look. A idiot in UK or US who win arrownd 3000/mo or in any country with BIG SALARIES pay for his home +300 000 $ . HERE in the "poor country" a idiot buy his home from less 30 000$ and is win less than 300$/mo. So for big money have ALWAYS place to spend, the same for less. We are people all so let respect all togeter.
Have a nice day
The Libertarians are going to win this economics argument - only because "artificial boundaries", protectionism etc are unworkable. Then you must consider the idealistic high wages + low prices expectations of this community we call Low End Talk.
However - the comment and idea from @rm_ that we westerners are "spoiled brats" is bullshit.
I'll speak about Belarus because I lived there: Teachers and doctors earn $200-300 per month (officially) in Republic of Belarus for example, and the fees for their services are low to meet the "social purpose" of low-cost education and health care for the masses. (These people also sell private services for a little more money - but that's a different story.)
IT specialists sell directly to the west, however, for whatever wage they set, and they enjoy a fantastic arbitrage. Every business there wants to cater to them.
But American IT specialists are not as lucky to have an economy in shambles and a great IT services importer like Russia who is willing to let us do business there and earn a RUBLE DENOMINATED salary. We have to pay our teachers much better, our doctors much much much better, and it's unfortunate that our particular sector of the economy - out of many productive sectors in the USA - is the most exposed to globalization and outsourcing risk.
But hey - USA is a free country, and I know many specialists in Belarus, Moldova and Romania who love the USA because the money is good! However - if their economies improve - they will require higher salaries to live. And nothing will stop that work from going to Iran or Malaysia. Iran is an engineering leader in the middle east, and they just entered global markets.
Absolutely. High cost of living negates much of the higher wages. As mentioned before, if you make $1,700 in London, you CANNOT live a dignified life. Unless you live in sweatshop conditions or are being subsidised, that kind of money can't even afford rent.
This is true in almost every properly rich city. Think New York, Paris, London, Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Vancouver etc. Vancouver being the cheapest city among these examples, you still could not get by on $1,700 /month.
To say westerners are spoiled because of high salaries is the same as saying easterners are spoiled for low cost of living!
Where I live in Lithuania, I would say standard of living for the average Joe, is very similar, if not better than the average Joe in the UK. And yet salaries are less than a third. But cost of living is so much cheaper so it's not really an issue. Fuck it, I'll say it, SPOILED EASTERNERS AND THEIR CHEAP GOODS AND LOW COST OF LIVING!
Yeah, especially stuff like computers and computer parts, imported cars (because there are either no locally produced cars, or they don't just look like, they are designed in the 1980s) and the unsurpassed ability to travel all around the world on vacations from the 139 EUR/mo job.