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Hetzner - Traffic Use Notice - unlimited != unlimited - Page 7
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Hetzner - Traffic Use Notice - unlimited != unlimited

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Comments

  • @netomx said:
    tl;dr

    Just accept, or go with another provider.

    250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt

    He may post his personal porn with his girl friends to catch audience. Who knows. LOL.

  • edited July 2022

    @letlover said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @MatthewM said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @MatthewM said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @xrz said:

    please can you stop your legal talking?

    this is about false advertising of unlimited

    Claiming false advertising is a legal claim that you are making

    How is it not false advertising?

    Hetzner claims to provide Unlimited and Guaranteed bandwidth at 1Gbit/s on their product. They are claiming the usage is too high by using the TOS for ending the contract for any reason. Sounds like a open-and-shut case of false advertising to me.

    Except it was a one month contract and they have not limited it during the current contract term, nor have they specified a termination date that is within the current contractual period. Hence they broke no laws and provided all services as ordered.

    Does not change the fact that it is false advertising. Simple As. They make one claim when you order and another when you use the service.

    Where did they claim unlimited was forever (on their site and in their terms), not on a random website forum. The advertising was for the term agreed to, which in their terms they can prevent future agreements.

    Nobody reads the small prints from the beginning to the end, unless there is an issue. So marketing realistically is a prudent approach to not get back fired.

    If you don't read an agreement- that is on you and quite frankly isn't a good idea.

    And a one month contract really is a one month contract, whether you like that fact or not.

    You cheat me once, that is your fault. You cheat me twice, that is my fault.
    Have you heard of this proverb? :)

    No cheating, they honored the agreement.

    Paypal changed terms at least 3 times in the past 12 months. My credit card changed terms. I either accept or move on, those are the 2 choices.

  • SagnikSSagnikS Member, Host Rep

    I received this email earlier today as well.

    Dear ---,

    We’re writing to you today because of your traffic use, which currently averages above 250 TB/month on some of your servers.

    Although these servers include unlimited traffic, this is far above what we consider fair use.

    In order to continue hosting your servers with us, the traffic use will need to be drastically reduced. Please check your servers and confirm what is using so much traffic, making sure it is nothing abusive, and then find ways of reducing it.

    We will routinely check your traffic use. If we continue to see such a high amount, we may choose to cancel your contract. (Please see 2.7 of our Terms and conditions: https://www.hetzner.com/legal/terms-and-conditions)

    Thank you for your understanding.

    Your Hetzner Online Team

    Hetzner Online GmbH
    Industriestr. 25
    91710 Gunzenhausen / Germany
    Tel: +49 9831 5050
    Fax: +49 9831 5053
    www.hetzner.com

    Register Court: Registergericht Ansbach, HRB 6089
    CEO: Martin Hetzner, Stephan Konvickova, Günther Müller

    Thanked by 1xrz
  • edited July 2022

    @letlover said:

    @netomx said:
    tl;dr

    Just accept, or go with another provider.

    250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt

    He may post his personal porn with his girl friends to catch audience. Who knows. LOL.

    Shifting off the hackers of the world unite mantra when that fell flat I see

  • letloverletlover Member
    edited July 2022

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @xrz said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said: All they have to say is the usage affects other customers and their network. Game over.

    No needed to say, we cool down the traffic already and moving away, wish after this hetzner state real traffic usage allowance per month

    Hetzner's network capacity should be based on the assumption that all users are using 320 TB/m. This is not your fault actually. This is simply not enough redundancy and overhead room in capacity in network and other areas.

    That is asinine. To start with- what time of day, what region, what exchange, what cost, what redundacy. To just say 320 is STUPID

    I understand that modern era businesses try to save to do this kind of smart caculations. like the business model and logic behind the vps, But being too calculated is not good, as shown in this fire case.

    I still like old days way of doing business. I had an IBM monitor, after all kinds of abusing by me, it was always working, even after other parts of the computer system died long before it died. IBM was that good. But on the other hand, common customers are so cost conscientious, that they buried the old IBM together. Today's society is a dilemma.

  • afnafn Member
    edited July 2022

    @sunnyg while I understand where you are coming from, you are looking at it from the wrong angle.

    To make to clear, we are not complaining hetzner is adding limits or an FUP. It is how they do it again.

    we're complaining about the lack of clarity (that hetzner is notorious for see serisen incident, price hike, and others), the fact they are sending a threat (not a notice, there is a difference), the shady marketing and the lack of proper communication in advance to tell about the new limit professionally (not with a threat), instead they blame it on customer "you abuse our network" instead of manning up and saying "sorry we realized our statement is way bigger than what we can handle please reduce to the new FUP".

    Also, note they did not suggest any traffic add-on. If you complain about customer's traffic usage, then say the limit, and say your price for extra traffic. simple. You don't just threaten to terminate customer because you are too lazy to work out your pricing. right @Hetzner_OL ?

    [Aggressive statements]

    Mod edit (angstrom): Removed. (Your expressed rage towards Hetzner is over the top, and this isn't even your thread. Also, many-many men are moody, perhaps you as well)

  • 1960' Free Love, 2020's Free Bandwidth - the times they are a changin'

  • @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @netomx said:
    tl;dr

    Just accept, or go with another provider.

    250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt

    He may post his personal porn with his girl friends to catch audience. Who knows. LOL.

    Shifting off the hackers of the world unite mantra when that fell flat I see

    This is actually a good business move for Hetzner actually. Hetzner's ip rep is not that good.

  • afnafn Member
    edited July 2022

    @ReadingIsFundamental said: All they have to say is the usage affects other customers and their network. Game over.

    They say port is dedicated and various communications, they say use it as you like. I asked once last year, I got a reply that said do what you want. Again, it is the contradiction we don't like, not the fact they want to install some "fairness" between customers in network usage.

    @ReadingIsFundamental said: Paypal changed terms at least 3 times in the past 12 months. My credit card changed terms. I either accept or move on, those are the 2 choices.

    Only difference is, They tell you when they do and they send you a NOTICE not a threat! and they fucking write it down, clearly and explicitly. Unlike Shady Hetzner who still did not even specify what their limit is.

  • afnafn Member
    edited July 2022

    @letlover said: You cheat me once, that is your fault. You cheat me twice, that is my fault.

    Not me, because there is no such proverb. it is "fool me once..."

    This is irrelevant. bad IP rep, is commonly because of DDOS. DDOS happens with legit customers' servers but that are naive and setting easy password so the server get hacker and used for DDOS therefore the bad IP rep. Traffic has nothing to do with it and will not improve it.

  • @letlover said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @netomx said:
    tl;dr

    Just accept, or go with another provider.

    250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt

    He may post his personal porn with his girl friends to catch audience. Who knows. LOL.

    Shifting off the hackers of the world unite mantra when that fell flat I see

    This is actually a good business move for Hetzner actually. Hetzner's ip rep is not that good.

    Why do they need to worry about IP rep unless you want to use their services for sending emails.

    They are not email services company.

  • HxxxHxxx Member

    @MrRadic offer unmetered 1Gbps on his servers.
    Taggin in case it has an actual limit.

  • @afn said:

    @letlover said: You cheat me once, that is your fault. You cheat me twice, that is my fault.

    Not me, because there is no such proverb. it is "fool me once..."

    The same idea.

  • @imgmoney said:

    @letlover said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @netomx said:
    tl;dr

    Just accept, or go with another provider.

    250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt

    He may post his personal porn with his girl friends to catch audience. Who knows. LOL.

    Shifting off the hackers of the world unite mantra when that fell flat I see

    This is actually a good business move for Hetzner actually. Hetzner's ip rep is not that good.

    Why do they need to worry about IP rep unless you want to use their services for sending emails.

    They are not email services company.

    If I use Hetzner's servers for applications and cannot send out registration emails, finally I have to delete the applications that I invest so much time optimizing, do you think that is my fault?

  • afnafn Member

    @imgmoney said: They are not email services company.

    the fuck is that bs now?

    Remind me of my ISP, they blocked SSH once. They said we are internet service provider, as long as you can open shit in chrome, we did out job. not ssh. They should rename their shit to "web service provider" -_-.

    There is no such thing as "not email provider" if you are offering service. Besides, they are actually an email service provider. check their hosting services. They offer email.

    Thanked by 2letlover TODO
  • edited July 2022

    @letlover said:

    @imgmoney said:

    @letlover said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @netomx said:
    tl;dr

    Just accept, or go with another provider.

    250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt

    He may post his personal porn with his girl friends to catch audience. Who knows. LOL.

    Shifting off the hackers of the world unite mantra when that fell flat I see

    This is actually a good business move for Hetzner actually. Hetzner's ip rep is not that good.

    Why do they need to worry about IP rep unless you want to use their services for sending emails.

    They are not email services company.

    If I use Hetzner's servers for applications and cannot send out registration emails, finally I have to delete the applications that I invest so much time optimizing, do you think that is my fault?

    If they matter that much to you- you'd have multiple sending mechanisms- An iCloud account to insure iCloud deliverability, Amazon SES, MailBaby or MailChannels and others. No single delivery mechanism works for all mailboxes, and there is always the riddle of MS Outlook when you solve all others. So its not a hetzner thing, it's an everywhere thing and takes as much thought as your app

  • R-I-P to all the seedboxes and load balancers out there 2018-2022

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    Paypal changed terms at least 3 times in the past 12 months. My credit card changed terms. I either accept or move on, those are the 2 choices.

    Big companies can do whatever they want, everybody know this. Guess we should be thankful they don't bomb cities yet.

    Just because one marked checkbox while ordering server, doesn't mean one concluded a legit contract. For private consumers there are state regulations. For companies it's far more complex, but both parties should act in good faith and presumably be fair, just and reasonable. But it's all not applicable here, as vast majority is fine with Hetzner's pricing and those few unsatisfied (sorry for them, hope they find new decent provider) won't take their complaints any further.

    The only good thing is that we've learned the actual 1Gbps traffic limits. For current month.

    Thanked by 3letlover sliix TODO
  • @Smith42 said:
    R-I-P to all the seedboxes and load balancers out there 2018-2022

    I mean if people can still push 100-200TB/mo for $30 they'll still choose Hetzner. Leaseweb might have better offers through resellers though.

  • cosmoscosmos Member

    @sunnyg said:
    I'm actually glad Hetzner is taking this stand. If you're going to blast 250TB traffic per month on $30/month servers, 100% you need the boot, no offense to the OP.

    You're omitting the fact that upon entering the contractual agreement, it was agreed that there was no traffic limit (i.e. unlimited traffic). Considering that fact your "250TB traffic per month on $30/month servers" argument is automatically invalidated.

    Going on, Hetzner decided to "rethink" the contract and now pressures users into a certain use pattern, or it won't extend its services to those customers any longer. From a business perspective -- totally fine; from a principial perspective -- totally dishonest and shameful.

    Another point is that it's perfectly normal for people to assume that when "unlimited traffic" is explicitly stated it doesn't fall under FUP. What if in the future they go harassing users for maxing out the CPU all the time? What's next, RAM? "You're not supposed to be using more than 70% of your available RAM on average for 2 months at a time"? This is, of course, under the presumption that you value common sense over corporate legalese, which, in the end, was intentionally curbed by consumer laws for a reason.

    Just defending Hetzners corporate practices where the end-user gets shafted on totally valid and agreed-upon terms in quite questionable, least to say.

    Thanked by 5afn letlover xrz sliix TODO
  • rustelekomrustelekom Member, Patron Provider

    Wow, I feel like I'm back in the year 2000. The old argument about unlimited traffic, disk, memory, and other unlimited nonsense. You can't have anything unlimited, people. Even the universe has a limit:)

    Thanked by 2netomx xrz
  • @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @imgmoney said:

    @letlover said:

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:

    @netomx said:
    tl;dr

    Just accept, or go with another provider.

    250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt

    He may post his personal porn with his girl friends to catch audience. Who knows. LOL.

    Shifting off the hackers of the world unite mantra when that fell flat I see

    This is actually a good business move for Hetzner actually. Hetzner's ip rep is not that good.

    Why do they need to worry about IP rep unless you want to use their services for sending emails.

    They are not email services company.

    If I use Hetzner's servers for applications and cannot send out registration emails, finally I have to delete the applications that I invest so much time optimizing, do you think that is my fault?

    If they matter that much to you- you'd have multiple sending mechanisms- An iCloud account to insure iCloud deliverability, Amazon SES, MailBaby or MailChannels and others. No single delivery mechanism works for all mailboxes, and there is always the riddle of MS Outlook when you solve all others. So its not a hetzner thing, it's an everywhere thing and takes as much thought as your app

    Everyone knows that new user registration email is critical to a web application. This does not only matter to me, but to anyone who uses Hetzner's servers. It is Hetzner or any other ISP's responsibility to provide clean ips, but not the end users' responsibility to find ways to deal with contaminated ips. The fact that I accept Hetzner's enticing price to endure such a trouble, does not endorse that I agree that it is my responsibility to deal with contaminated ips.

  • In comparison, LightSail does not have issues with contaminated ips, so this is not everywhere.

  • edited July 2022

    @letlover said:
    In comparison, LightSail does not have issues with contaminated ips, so this is not everywhere.

    So I have to ask, why do you keep on using Hetzner if you don't like their bandwidth policy (hey see what you'd pay on lightsail) and you don't like their IP's. Seems you have already decided to go elsewhere. Hard to tell from your shot gun approach to discussions- is it leaseweb is it hetzner ashburn is it hetzner vds or dedi. Is it light sail. Is mail via postmark or ses? Your shit is everywhere and nowhere all at the same time.

    Did lightsail approve opening your port for email? or are you just spitballing because the ip you got isn't on a blacklist?

  • MrRadicMrRadic Patron Provider, Veteran

    @Hxxx said:
    @MrRadic offer unmetered 1Gbps on his servers.
    Taggin in case it has an actual limit.

    We actually offer true unmetered

  • I got the email too this morning. After checking the traffic statistics for last month I had only 1 server that was over 250, it was 259TB, while the next highest was under 100TB. Stats for this month are much lower, the largest was barely over 100TB.

    Going through the traffic stats for the past 7 months are pretty much the same. 1 server right over their 250TB soft-limit and all the other servers under 100TB

    At the end of the day Hetzner prices are amazing, just get an extra server if you manage to go over their limit.

    The one thing that irks me is this came out of nowhere. They should probably mention somewhere, that isnt hidden in the small print, that if you go over 250TB they will terminate your contract.

    Thanked by 2xrz sliix
  • letloverletlover Member
    edited July 2022

    @ReadingIsFundamental said:

    @letlover said:
    In comparison, LightSail does not have issues with contaminated ips, so this is not everywhere.

    So I have to ask, why do you keep on using Hetzner if you don't like their bandwidth policy (hey see what you'd pay on lightsail) and you don't like their IP's. Seems you have already decided to go elsewhere. Hard to tell from your shot gun approach to discussions- is it leaseweb is it hetzner ashburn is it hetzner vds or dedi. Is it light sail. Is mail via postmark or ses? Your shit is everywhere and nowhere all at the same time.

    Did lightsail approve opening your port for email? or are you just spitballing because the ip you got isn't on a blacklist?

    You are really mad. LightSail does not open port 25. Yet using google smtp has no problem sending out registration emails. I still keep my lightsail instance and website as the reference and the benchmark.
    As I said, Hertzner's strength was its auctioned affordable unmetered dedicated bare metal servers. Yet Hetzner has raised the price of the auctioned bmds about 50% more early this year. I understand that the energy is the issue and swallowed the much higher bill. Now we know Hetzner's unmetered bw is not truly unmetered. Hetzner's BMDS is far less enticing as even two years ago. Hetzner's vds and vps are very competitive in US, but not so in EU, as PHP-Friends' vds and NetCup's vps are very powerful and reasonably priced.
    Pay attention to your customers' voices, understand your position as a service provider, you have a lot of competition coming everywhere.
    I am asking experienced LETers what is the best strategy for hosting my websites. I do not have any financial interest or affiliation with any vendor here. This is free world and we hail free speech in US. If Hetzner is good, I praise it more than you. If Hetzner does not substantiate its claim, I speak out. You like it or not, this is reality.

  • Important questions are still not being answered.

    1 If pushing >200TB is "too much" for a $30 server, how much is not "too much" then?

    We can say "250TB is TOO MUCH, dont say like it isnt".

    Can we then say "150TB is TOO MUCH"?

    Can we then say "50TB is TOO MUCH"?

    You can probably argue that for a $30 server, even 20TB is too much. Where's the line here?

    2 If pushing >200TB makes a $30 server not profitable, then how much extra can we pay to make it profitable?

    Let's say if 100TB is reasonable for a $30 server, can we pay $90 to get 300TB monthly traffic?

    If I'm pushing 1PB per month (let's just say I'm working for a big OSS project), can I pay $300 and call it a day?


    You are provided a server, $30 for unlimited 1gbps connection plan. You are not given a way to pay more to cover the traffic because it's "unlimited". You only get a warning for termination. IMHO that's the real problem here.

    Thanked by 5xrz sliix afn TODO kdh
  • ralfralf Member
    edited July 2022

    @msg7086 said:
    You are provided a server, $30 for unlimited 1gbps connection plan. You are not given a way to pay more to cover the traffic because it's "unlimited". You only get a warning for termination. IMHO that's the real problem here.

    Most VPS providers won't tell you what fair use of your vCPU is either. For the simple reason, they don't normally care because most people use a tiny fraction of what they could be using, so it's never normally a problem for anyone. But as soon as people can't even use that tiny fraction any more because someone's maxing it out, then it will get addressed.

    The problem is that there isn't a hard and fast limit that makes it a problem. It'll be when there are sufficient people trying to saturate their 1 gig port and it starts to cause strains in the capacity, and then they look at the cost to increase the bandwidth and it's much more than what they're receiving from each customer. It's a fairly obvious choice at that point to let the customer go. And of course, if that customer goes, the pressure is relieved and everyone can go back to doing what they want and nobody has to worry about there being a limit.

    If they've called out 250TB a month, which is approximately 80% of the maximum possible bandwidth, then stick below that. Or stick to 200TB and play it really cautious. Or, move to somewhere more expensive where you get the full 320TB. Even if you play it really conservative and stick to 160TB, that's still an awful lot more than many dedis at much higher prices.

    Thanked by 1sliix
  • @ralf said:

    Most VPS providers won't tell you what fair use of your vCPU is either. For the simple reason, they don't normally care because most people use a tiny fraction of what they could be using, so it's never normally a problem for anyone. But as soon as people can't even use that tiny fraction any more because someone's maxing it out, then it will get addressed.

    Even if they advertise their CPU resources as "use as much as you can, unlimited"?

    If they've called out 250TB a month, which is approximately 80% of the maximum possible bandwidth, then stick below that. Or stick to 200TB and play it really cautious. Or, move to somewhere more expensive where you get the full 320TB. Even if you play it really conservative and stick to 160TB, that's still an awful lot more than many dedis at much higher prices.

    How do you know if 160TB is safe? You assume it's conservative until they call out because "you used 10x more than average user bullst". Yeah, exactly like what comcast is doing to its customers. "Average user uses 300GB so you are capped at 1.2TB per month" thing. I mean, even comcast is doing better because they mark it clearly and everyone knows exactly where the line is.

    I've previously used some providers with high traffic allowence. We were given 100TB traffic and were allowed to cross the line if by not too much. We knew exactly where the line was. We used probably 1TB per month, and 100TB was the same as "unlimited" to us. However, having a clear guideline gave us a good expectation of what is "too much" and what is safe.

    I can simply ask, if I use 160TB per month perfectly legal and reasonable traffic, will I be guaranteed to not get such a warning notice. And you won't be able to answer it.

    Thanked by 1xrz
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