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The thread is about Europe.
Again, the thread is about Europe. It even says so in the title.
OK, so then we are back to the "if it doesn't happen to you, it doesn't count" rhetoric?
If your concern is that I expressed prices in GBP to make it easier for everyone to grasp, I apologize. Feel free to translate to Euro or SEK or whatever currency you are more comfortable with, the percentages will still be the same so it's not really relevant.
Again, it is not about me.
What doesn't sound plausible for you is reality for others. You have no idea how the european power grid is setup, do you? It does not matter if a country has 10, 50 or 100% of its power from renewables, nuclear, gas or bicycles, if there is a power shortage in one country in Europe, there is a power shortage in all of them. Just google it, or start at https://www.entsoe.eu/
Some countries are not so reliant on electricity or get government backing, such as UK, but countries like Sweden rely heavily on cheap electricity, especially during winter.
Those prices I listed were taken from Vattenfall, one of the biggest power companies in Sweden. I could list the current prices of all the major providers here if that makes it feel more plausible for you?
Vattenfall: 330,40 öre/kWh
Fortum: 244, 51 öre/kWh
Eon: 406,63 öre/kWh
Mälarenergi: 349.96 öre/kWh
öre is 1/100 of a SEK, 1 SEK is as time of writing 0,094 Euro
See the professor's talk, actually renewables are an issue.
This is happening, it is real -- there is no shadow of doubt about it. Stop trying to cast doubt to something which is very evident and people are suffering financially from it. Just because you don't experience it, does not mean someone else is not.
You directly replied to a comment about the UK stating as a fact that bills were rising from £300 to £3000. When I called you out on that, you doubled down and said I was wrong.
When I provided my example showing an approx 40% projected rise in the UK, I was accused of narcissism by @PulsedMedia.
When I described the situation in the UK, I was told that the world doesn't revolve around the UK and how sucky the UK is because it's too socialist, and how it's far worse in other countries.
But still, you didn't retract your obviously bullshit claim. It was only when you let slip that you're actually in Sweden and I called you out on making a claim about UK prices, that now it was just for "our convenience".
Even so, I really cannot believe that bills in Sweden have gone up by 1000% (incidentally, going from 300 to 3000 would be going up by 900%, but as it's all bullshit, let's not argue the semantics) because if the cost of gas is roughly 6x the previous price (and falling) and renewables provide over 50% of Sweden's electricity source, then that means there is excessive profiteering going on my the Swedish electricity companies. Instead of the 3x price, they're charging 10x? And your government isn't stepping in to prevent profiteering? That's not "anti-socialist", that's "corrupt".
Do what you like. But I'd be convinced if you can provide a single before and after bill where it's gone up 10 times.
I know you hate hearing about me and how easy we have it in the UK, but for comparison that's about 90% of what I'm currently paying, before the rise. As it happens, what I'm paying is what most people in the UK are paying as my rate is the maximum it's legally allowed to be by the cap.
So, in summary electricity in the UK is more or less the same, maybe slightly more expensive than Sweden, but you're saying that we don't understand your problem?
As the average maximum price in the UK is due to rise to approx £2500 per year, I still can't see where this claimed £3000 per month is coming from in Sweden. Even without the government subsidies, the maximum average price would be £3549 per year. Do you just leave your electric ovens on all day or something? How on earth is the average Swedish household using 10x as much electricity as the average UK household?
(accidental re-post during editing)
No, I replied to a comment about Europe, where someone compared the current rise in electricity prices to the oil crisis in the 70's.
I have nowhere in this thread talked about prices in the UK specifically, as I have no knowledge about how they handle their power grid after leaving the EU. If you would argue that I should say "EU" and not "Europe", I would agree with you, that would be correct. But since the op named the thread "European energy crisis", I just rolled with it.
And what should I do about that? I do not in any way control @PulsedMedia or what he says.
I am pretty sure I have never called the UK sucky because it's to socialist. Not that I am a socialist in any way, shape or form, but I simply do not consider the UK to be especially socialistic.
What is bullshit about my claim? I have never made any claim whatsoever about UK prices. I can see that listing it in GBP confused you, and for that I apologize. But listing the prices in SEK would probably have meant absolutely nothing for the majority of readers here. I could have used Euro, in hindsight that would probably have been better.
I did not "let slip" that I live in Sweden, I have never claimed otherwise. You assumed I lived in UK, but that's on you.
Well, what you believe is actually irrelevant as the figures speaks for themself.
"Electricity prices in southern Sweden in January 2021 averaged 0,2460 kr/kWh. In August of 2022 the price average was 3,304 kr/kWh."
That is well over 1000%, even over 1200% if my math is correct. Again, would you like a calculator?
300 to 3000 was rough numbers just given as examples, I thought that was pretty obvious.
And there is really not much profiteering. Most of our electricity is exported because we have to (again, read the link I provided you) and most of the power companies are actually paying more for the electricity than what they are charging their customers for it.
The government is working on a bunch if different ways to handle this, but their hands are pretty much tied due to the enormous clusterfuck that is the European powergrid.
And again, it does not matter how much of our power comes from renewables, the power market does not work that way.
Lets make this simple.
A little over a year ago 1 kWh of electricity averaged 0,2460 SEK.
Last month, 1 kWh of electricity averaged 3,304 SEK.
Unless you are questioning the fundamental concept of math, that is over a 1000% increase. You can type it out in any currency you like, as long as you do the right conversion, the percentage will be the same.
Source for both last year and last month please.
Your last month figure seems way too high - 3300sek is what, £265 or 310EUR - for 1kwh? I don't buy it.
I think your fundamental concept of math might be wrong. Perhaps you've mixed up the figures - first one being per kWh and the second one being per kVA?
I think he means per MWh price (1000Kwh) = 31 cents per kWh instead of 3 cents? That must be excl. taxes then.
0.246 SEK / MWh is way too low though. He's made a mistake somewhere in his post.
Probably excl taxes. Since in Sweden probably 70% tax is on the kWh price
Quote: The energy tax rate for electricity continued to grow over the past decade. In 2021, the energy tax rate is 35,6 Swedish cents/kWh
Doesn't make sense either.
That was my post.
OK. Why then did you apropos of nothing start talking about price differences in GBP if you didn't want to talk about the UK?
Just to re-iterate my point. Not one single person's bill has gone from GBP 300 to GBP 3000, nor will it in the next year. Not a single one.
Both of those comments (sorry, I deleted the narcissist one) were from @PulsedMedia, I didn't say you'd said it. I also consider the UK to be pretty far from what I'd consider a socialist state.
You said people's prices have gone from X to Y. You specifically mentioned a currency out of nowhere. And my point is that every time I've said that was bullshit, you've argued against me saying that it's true.
Have a search through the thread like I have just done. The first time GBP or £ got mentioned in the entire thread was by you. In this claim, you know, the one that is false. That I said immediately was false, and you kept denying it.
If your claim was people have gone from SEK whatever to SEK 10x whatever, then sure, I wouldn't have called you out on it because I have no knowledge about prices in Sweden. Even EUR whatever to EUR 10x whatever, because Europe is big enough that that might well be the case somewhere, like Greece. But no, you specifically chose to use pounds. That makes me think you're making a point about the only country in EU that uses that currency, because honestly, what else would anybody think? And as it happens, I know enough about prices in the UK to know that your statement cannot possibly be true for ANYBODY who pays for their electricity in pounds.
Please provide a single instance of a before and after bill that shows this. A considerable part of most people's bills is a daily standing charge. I'm still sceptical that any residential customers are seeing a 10-fold rise in their actual bill, although I'm willing to be proven wrong by an actual bill.
Your exact quote was:
That doesn't say "I've made up this BS 1000% number and I'm using a hypothetical currency and a hypothetical monthly price". You made a provably false claim.
I've got better things to do to hunt around all your previous posts for a link about a country whose prices don't affect me. I'll trust that the majority of your electricity is exported, because I have no reason to doubt it. That however, is a matter for your electricity production companies and government to sort out.
I am, however, amazed that you don't consider raising the prices by 10x when the costs have raised by 3x to be "not profiteering". Even if all your domestic supply is from gas, a 6x increase in the cost of gas does not translate to a 10x increase to the customer.
You cannot make the claim as you did that people who were previously paying 300 POUNDS are now paying 3000 POUNDS, because that is a lie. That is simply untrue. It is a falsehood. It is a deviation from truth. It's a little porker.
What happens in other countries and other currencies isn't what I'm arguing about. It's the fact that you made a false claim and then continued to argue it was true when it wasn't.
Also, FWIW, if a little over a year ago your energy was 0.2460 SEK (about 0.02 GBP), that the issue isn't so much about the scale of the rise, it's probably the case that your energy was being artificially subsidised before, and that's probably why the UK isn't seeing the huge rises you are. Last year, I was paying 0.144 GBP per kWh for electricity and 2 years ago, 0.1324 per kWh). Now it seems we're paying about the same. For that, you have my sympathies.
If the tax on electricity is 70%, it would seem that the Swedish government has a pretty easy fix to the problem if it wants to solve it.
This is all about keeping EU in a energy leash, the control of which Russia has.
If you replace Russia with USA i will completely agreed with you:) And don't trust to current west propaganda. That is old story and USA always would like have control over Europe in all aspects - not only by NATO but also by nature resources. Europe has a low natural resources - that is due to old industrial history. Even in USSR time USA was against oil pipe and then gas pipe from USSR to Europe. Finally, 50 years later USA goal realised and pipes cut off. Only USA win here.
I'm just waiting with popcorn for the United States to realize another goal in its plan and completely erase the memory in European countries of World War II and who won there and who bombed Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
Replied to in the appropriate thread: https://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/3481444/#Comment_3481444
It is not 3300 SEK, its 3,3 SEK but with more decimals.
It was copy and paste from www.vattenfall.se, sorry if the comma confused you.
Yeah, all of Europe use , for decimals and . for thousand separators.
His figures (I only checked the first) worked out about 27p per kWh compared to about 28p per kWh in the UK, so more or less the same.
So basically, your only issue is that I expressed the prices in GBP instead of SEK? Really?
You can look up the prices yourself:
https://www.vattenfall.se/
https://www.eon.se
https://www.fortum.se
If you can not grasp the simple concept that a 1000% increase in price means that the bill will be 1000% higher, than I highly doubt that anything I say or do can make you understand.
1000% is not made up, its actually a low estimate. The increase is over 1200% if you do the exact math.
GBP is not a hypothetical currency.
I will admit that £300 may be an hypothetical price, I can not guarantee that a customer pays exactly £300. It might be £300.11 or $299.98. But that is not the point. I can guarantee that a lot of people in Sweden had electricity bills way above 3700 SEK (which is roughly 300 GBP) long before the energy crisis, and that is the point.
If you had clicked the link, you would have known that it is not that easy. It's a European agreement with enormous amounts of red tape and contracts that range up to 30 years.
Would it make you feel better if I said they pay the EQUIVALENT of £300? They pay £300, but in Swedish kronor. How can the currency, and not the value, be the important thing here?
So you are claiming that because I used a different currency, my statement was untrue?
All the values were correct but the unit was false, so that makes the statement false?
So if I say that a file is 1024 kilobytes but the file turns out to be 1 megabytes, that makes my statement a lie?
The reason UK is not seeing the same rise is that you are heavily subsidized and not part of the European power grid.
Whoa, we need a new level for insanity; Eurocrazy
Just heard that EU Commission in all of it's wisdom has decided that indeed, trees do not grow and is non-renewable.
Okay .... Am i insane for thinking that trees literally grow in trees?
I’m just amazed how you guys have the patience to argue with dodgy provider and and their white knight shill(?) who’s writing longass posts to justify the absurd price increase.
I mean you don’t actually buy this shenanigans do you?
€ 18 to 81, € 3 to 8.8 and $46 to 233. Hmm. This does seem closer to the so called 1000% increase than the actual jump in electric bill.
I’d like to see someone posting the actual electric bill comparisons to prove me wrong and back up the catastrophe/tenfold increase… arguments.
Slovenia is part of the the European power grid and like said, our main provider increased energy price for 18% in 1st August 2022 and it's now:
They won't increase price anymore this year, but there's expected some price increase again on the begining of the new year.
Since 1st september our government regulated max allowed price of energy and until 31. avgust 2023 can't go above 0,118 eur/kWh (higher tariff), 0,082 eur/kWh (lower tariff) and 0,098 eur/kWh (single-tariff).
They also reduced excise duty for 50% and additional 50% lower taxes for renewable energy, so we actually pay now a bit less than we did it before 1st september.
I am not posting this as pissing match with "southern sweden" (I am pretty sure you're doing better in many aspects) just explaining how our government limited energy price wild ride by speculators which drive massive energy price rise and how much we pay per kWh.
If you want to interpret it that way, then sure.
However, as I have repeated over and over and over is that you made a claim that people's bills were going up from £300 to £3000 per month. You portrayed this as a fact, and I knew that couldn't possibly be true and called it out.
Rather than admitting it was an example that you had made up, you doubled down on your claim that it was true.
Do any of these links provide examples of anybody's bills rising by the amounts you claim?
If bills have risen by 1000%, it should be trivial for you to produce a single example of a before and after bill from anywhere in Europe that demonstrates this.
And as I said, a large component of most people's bills is a daily standing charge.
As you've already made one claim that's provably false, if you want people to believe this claim that people's bills have gone up by 1000% in any currency, the onus is kind of on you to provide some evidence of this. If it's true, finding a single example of this can't be that hard, surely?
Again. Nobody, repeat, nobody has had a bill that went from 300 pounds to 3000 pounds. Not one single person.
And if you can guarantee that all these people have had these bills, let's see one then. It still won't make your claim about UK prices any truer, but at least it'll prove your claim of 1000% rises in Sweden.
Because I was disputing your claim which was explicitly talking about bills in pounds. That is why it's important.
Yes, exactly. Your statement as written is completely untrue.
Of course not.
However if I claimed you bought 5 Dell laptops and in fact you'd bought 5 MacBooks, you'd be right to say my claim was false.
If my native currency is GBP, and I said that I bought a laptop on holiday for USD 300, you'd obviously assume I bought this laptop in a country where USD is used and for exactly 300 USD. Not that maybe I was on holiday in the UK and bought it for 275 GBP and just felt like converting it to some random currency for a laugh. In any case, saying I bought it for 300 USD would be a false statement, because I didn't use that currency.
If the UK is so heavily subsidised, why are our prices now currently almost the same as yours (within a couple of percent), and previously were our prices about 5 times higher than yours. Sounds like yours is the subsidised one to me.
In fact, we're yet to receive any subsidy. It will be applied to the upcoming rises, which will happen in October.
Anyway, it's kind of pointless to keep arguing this. You clearly believe that you're right.
However, I also believe that by choosing to frame your statement in GBP (which hadn't been mentioned at all in the thread until then as the thread was about Europe) you were deliberately trying to imply that it represented a situation that had taken place where the transaction was in GBP, which necessarily implies in the UK. And taken that way, your claim was false. When I said that your claim couldn't be true because prices in the UK hadn't risen that much, rather than saying you weren't talking about the UK, you repeated your assertion that it was true.
Just because it's too late to edit my last post, and I think you think I'm arguing a different point.
I'm not arguing that there is no bill that is exactly £300.00 that has gone to £3000.00. That would be obtuse in the extreme.
I'm arguing that nobody who received a bill in pounds has experienced a bill for 10x that amount a year later, nor will they. This is simply because the maximum price is capped.
The rise to date is hard to say with certainty - I am in about the worst position, going from a low fixed-rate to the "variable with cap" rate (so effectively exactly the cap) which is about double the price from last year. Most people will have had a more modest rise so far.
The next rise in the cap in October was due to be 80%, but will be about 40% due to the government subsidy. The rise after that will be in April, but as the price of gas is starting to come down again, I expect this will probably be about the same amount. However, this is again capped by the government, so the price should not rise much in April. Additionally, we have an extra guarantee by the government that if the cap goes above a certain amount, they will subsidise the difference for 2 years. As we will already be hitting that limit next month, the price rise people get next month will be the highest it can go for 2 years. So, most people in the UK will be seeing approximately a 150% rise over 2 years at most. Someone who was paying £300 a month last year is probably paying £600 now and might be paying £750 all next year.
Just for clarification, the cap is determined by the average price for gas to the companies over the preceeding 6 months, adds a fair profit margin determined by their previous earnings, adds inflation and then fixes that as a maximum for 6 months. The cap is also calculated on average usage and quoted as e.g. £2500 per year for the average home. However, it's actually done by assuming an average usage and the cap is really on both the per kWh and the daily standing charge. So people can always reduce their bills by reducing their usage. For households that use the same as they did in the past though, for the next two years they won't receive a bill that's more than about 150% more than this time last year.
Someone who actually gets it!!! @PulsedMedia thank you for the post that clearly outlines how the Green Movement is basically terrorism wrapped up in a big red bow.
"if" just like in The Netherlands
So lets see. I had an power plan of €0.03/kWH last year (January). Now I'm forced to use the Nordpool plan which just did €4.80/kWH last month.
GREEN IS THE WAY TO GO!
Oh my.
WTF? It'd almost be cheaper to run your house on AAA batteries and an inverter!
(EDIT: PS that's hyperbole, not a serious comment)
As a Canadian, it's weird it's not written as "246 SEK" and 0,2460 is confusing AF. I initially thought that was supposed to be a decimal. It's a good thing I don't write software involving money, I'd be an International incident.
Edit: read further posts
did you try to install solar panels at home? at least for summer, you will get cheaper electricity than the grid
It seemed the price increases were factored on top of regular prices and your previous rate was below regular price with a promotional discount and so now your promotional discount is erased. Maybe the issue is that promotional discount from regular price was meant to stay and not force people to regular prices? Just guessing...
Depends on who pays for the cost of solar electric setup. And maintenance. Not even talking about space/ feasibility.
Otherwise, for. 1000 US dollar/ Euro setup at 8-10 percent interest rate, another 100-120 in maintenance/upkeep;
Grid power works out cheaper
Those price increases are just some screenshots I saw here.
Totally not in the mood for deciphering their shady calculation and definitely not interested in their products, after seeing tons of complaint posts about their services/support/attitude especially after knowing they are completely banned in seedbox communities.