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In Denmark, many private households check the live electric price and program their dishwasher, washing machine, and dryer to run when the electric prices are low.
Municipalities are most likely going to reduce streetlights at night and turn off lights in buildings when they are not used to reduce energy usage.
Shops are also going to reduce their use of light/electricity.
Indoor production of tomatoes and similar during the winter are no longer profitable, so we will only have 10+ kinds of tomatoes in the shops.
But is all voluntary, mostly to save money.
The government has represented the (old) emergency plan on tv, in case it gets worse in the coming winter.
In case the shit hits the fan:
Private households, hospitals, etc. are guaranteed gas, electricity, etc.
Some production businesses will have to stop their production.
We have a lot of wind and windmills in Denmark and are mostly using green energy, but we are connected to and depend on the electricity networks in Germany, Sweden, and Norway on windless days.
Energy companies in most municipalities require 1-2 heating plants and have 3-4 kinds. Most gas and wood pellets plants are idling because of the prices.
Our natural gas depot is 94% full and can last many months. And we have our own biogas production.
Normally we produce more natural gas than we need, but the plant in shut down for maintenance until some time next year.
We pay 60% income tax, 85-150% tax + 25% VAT on new cars, 42% dividend tax, etc.
The price hikes are small compared to our taxes and is just annoying, not a catastrophe.
I will be surprised if Russia manage to create real problems in Denmark.
Why is every datacenter in the vicinity having higher energy prices then me, who isn't in a contract?
Right now I'm paying 2,42 kr kWh, that 0,22 eur. People are taking about 5€/KWh? According to the EU map, I'm in one of the more expensive countries overall. South of Sweden.
For my consumption, and I never think about limiting my consumption, I pay about 26 eur a month, and I got a dryer, washer, and a dishwasher. Always running the longest programs "just to be sure".
If my monthly total would 10x from now, that'd be annoying.
From last month, my energy prices are up 8,5 %.
Obviously, it's really bad for those having huge houses to warm etc. I'm not denying that, I'm just saying the world isn't going under just yet.
Not to get into the taxing debate, but I live in a country very similar to Denmark, and comparing tax rates like that is really misleading, and I'm saying this as a right-winger who what's to lower our taxes a lot (bear in mind a right-winger in our perspective isn't really a right-winger in yours).
The reason is we've got collective pension funds, probably across all of Scandinavia. So apart from the usual arguments of not paying (or kind of not paying) for school, hospital visits, education, child care etc., you actually do get a fair amount of money back once you retire.
You're forced to save for your retirement inside of the tax rate.
Again, not defending it, I'd like more freedom in my savings, but it's really not as bad as it seems from an outside perspective.
Norway for example, their oil fund, in December 2021, was worth about $250,000 per Norwegian citizen.
Even though it's just a simple value divided by citizens I CBA to check what it's valued at now per citizen, but that's a huge sum of money.
Denmark & Sweden isn't in the same league, but the point still stands.
This is actually causing issues for your neighbors, see the swedish professor's lecture. About 20minutes and then he starts taking questions:
"only 10+ kind"
Here pretty much same, a bout half of greenhouses i believe has stated no growing next winter.
Some shops are turning off refrigerators etc. steel mills are shutting furnaces.
Same boat here, i think we have even higher total tax rate, albeit some of yours are higher than ours from get-go like VAT and principal gains.
Individual people who work have a minimum tax rate of about 60%, but not as direct income tax, it's hidden in multiple stages.
Datacenters need to be cooled and networked, all that takes energy. Quite a lot of overheads to get your server powered on.
For you personally, annoying only probably yes. But think of the businesses around you. Price of electricity goes up? So does everything else or a tsunami of bankruptcies.
We are looking straight into the gun barrel of potentially 8x+ electricity cost by end of the year, and this can take more than a decade to solve.
Since electricity was already well above 10% of our revenue, 8x electricity would mean that electricity bill would become higher than our gross revenue. gross revenue, before trx fees even.
It might not even stop at 8x tbh, and even after the price increases we might need to shutdown part of our production when the next increases hit on us.
This ponzi is about to burst in Finland. It's like watching a train wreck in very slow motion, been expecting this for close to 2 decades now, and it's getting ever closer. Our pension funds are at abysmally low level, less than 40k € per retiree, and amount of retirees is about to increase A LOT in the upcoming decade.
I believe they are getting now way less in retirement payments than outgoing. Meanwhile taking huge losses on the market, and politicians using these funds like never ending treasury.
Their investments has been absolutely abysmal as well, earning like one quarter of what the overall market does, and huge overheads.
There's been a lot of debate this lately, but you get like 1/10th or even less than if you just saved it yourself.
Solution to the problem? Raise retirement payments. They are now trying to force higher for entrepreneurs by making bureaucrats decide What YOU should be earning, leading to a situation where they will most likely assign you higher payment rate han your actual income is. It's robbery, nothing else. Some small businesses have informed that they will go bankrupt if this is done.
Basicly, they will set the rate by what you think you should be earning as a salary, regardless of your actual profit. So we could see people getting 10x+ the retirement payments from now on.
Don't remember the percentage but it is something like 20-30% of your supposed income.
And you get nothing in return. That goes to pay the previous payers, just like a good ol' ponzi.
Finland is ripping from the seams with these absurd high taxes and living expenses. Even long term unemployed people are not willing to work for anything less than about 2500-3000€/month in business' costs, and then you have huge responsibilities if you happen to hire badly, ie. they could be constantly on sick leave, but you still got to pay. Even severe case of alcoholism and day drinking might not allow the business to fire them.
We had one person apply for a entry level job, who was on health retirement with bad ticker and long term unemployed, and could only work 2-3 short days a week asking for about 33€/hour in company expenses ... that would work out to about 5500€ for full time. with all the sick leave etc. he would take that quickly rises to more like 45€/hour or 7500€ full time equivalent. Our posting was for entry level junior, apprenticeship / intern type of job.
Yes, I made a mistake and did not check the current situation before publishing, sorry. I just saw this post https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/07/05/claim-discovery-reveals-large-year-round-ozone-hole-over-tropics /, but the article looks like it hasn't been widely confirmed yet.
I was thinking the same. People here act like it's the end of the world. Every price increase sucks, that's true, but for me this means just that I may spend 50 euros monthly less on things I don't need anyway. That I will made some click less on stupid Aliexpress gadges, that I will stick with my 40 idle VPSes instead of 50 and this is it.
Yes, every price increase sucks, but even if things go really bad I won't be cold, I won't be hungry, just my spoiled way of life may be slightly less spoiled. Inconvenience yes, catastrophe not.
This might come as a shock to you, but you are not the center of the universe. The world consists of a lot more people than just you.
You may see $50 a month as an inconvenience, but what about when you go to the store to buy bread but there is no bread because the bakery went out of business? Or the store is completely closed because it's no longer profitable to keep it open? Or when you suddenly find yourself completely without electricity because your powercompany went bankrupt due to losing millions on multi-year contracts they could not get out of? Then you will be cold and you will be hungry.
Keep in mind that for most people a 5-10% or even 100% increase in costs is what you call an "inconvenience", but for most businesses it is the difference between existing or not.
Our entire society is built on extremely thin margins, especially the economy.
End of the world, no, but it will severely impact our way of life.
I am well aware of that, but writings above is my personal opion based on my own experience and surrounding observation. You don't need to accept it and feel free to be a drama queen regarding hypothetical scenarios. There are tough times for many business for sure but generally looking world won't end here. Poor will still be poor and rich will still be rich.
We will talk in a year or two when I will remind you about those words regarding "bread I won't be able to buy" and average european "being hungry and cold" in the near future. I am not saying it will be easy, but I simply refuse to believe that we're really that far. Do you personal feel it?
Yes it sucks that things are more and more expensive, but hungy and cold... come one, we're just spoiled fucks.
Yes, sure. With my pretty much average salary I won't have like 50 idle VPSes anymore (because yes, things are getting expensive), but just 40 although I am not sure if you get it what I am trying to say with our "western spoiled way of life".
Again, it's not only about you. Personally, I am not affected by this in any noticeable degree. I make enough money to not have to worry about the electricity bill even if it would increase 1000%. I might turn down the heat a few degrees in my country house since I only use it a few weeks every year, but that's about as big as an annoyance it is for me. But it's not about me neither.
I know people that have already been forced to sell their house because they can not afford the electricity required to heat it. I know businesses that have shut down, meaning people losing their jobs. And this is after only a few months at a scale that is nothing compared to what it could be when winter hits.
People are already turning down the heat, so yes, people are cold. People in Europe.
People are losing their jobs, so yes, they are hungry. Maybe not starving, but again, this could be just the beginning.
Thinking that you are safe just because you are European and relatively wealthy is extremely naive and egocentric, but then again, so are most people today. The rich will be rich and the poor will still be poor, yes, but making that an argument for not having to care is inhuman. As I said, this do not affect me but I still care, because it does affect people!
"Let them eat cake..."
That's just because you don't understand what I am trying to say. Even now many poor people suffer. Are hungry. Can't provide for a family.
But no matter how bad it will be, your western spoiled ass will be still on a better place than many people are right now today or were yesterday. That's my point.
You talk like it's the end of the world while your and my spoiled ass will feel it more or less just like a little incovenience in life.
Many people on the world sadly don't have this privilege even today as we're speaking here.
And, again, it is not about me. Please stop talking about you and me, it is not about us.
Yes, people suffer. They always have and always will. For a lot of different reasons. This will only make more people suffer, so how it is not a catastrophe? People are losing their homes and their jobs, how much will it take before it fits your definition of catastrophe?
You claiming it is only a inconvenience but not a catastrophe only show how extremely egocentric and narrow minded you are.
No it show only that you can't comprehend what I just posted above. Yes for your western way of life is just an incovenience because you will have less to spend on luxury. Other may not have this privilege, but those usually don't complain on forums.
So your definition of a catastrophe is that it is only a catastrophe if it happens to you?
If shit happens to other people, it is not a catastrophe? That's just fascinating.
No, I never said that. What's wrong with you anyway? It's like I post something and you see something completely else to make argument about.
I am not your "enemy". Maybe I badly expressed my thoughts, maybe you didn't understand them...
I was talking about something completely different. That you and me know a shit about catastrophe. Because we don't live it and we won't live it, no matter how much you want to convience me otherwise.
No matter how much you (or anyone, including me) moan on forums at the end of the day you will just need to cut down some expenses. And this is it. Some other may not have this privilege and that sucks. But those usually don't post on forums.
You said, and I quote: "Yes, every price increase sucks, but even if things go really bad I won't be cold, I won't be hungry, just my spoiled way of life may be slightly less spoiled. Inconvenience yes, catastrophe not."
So you are trying to say that I can not call it a catastrophe because it does not affect me? Are you serious? The nuclear meltdown in Fukushima did not affect me in any way whatsoever, I would still call it a catastrophe.
I have read your posts several times, and to me it still sounds like you don't think its a catastrophe because it does not affect you. And I find that a seriously shitty attitude.
It does not affect me either, but I still consider it a catastrophe because it affects other people. I have friends that have lost their job and had to sell their house. While not affecting me personally, I still consider that a catastrophe.
This will be one of the largest, if not the largest wealth transfers in European history. For average joe, this is an absolute disaster, a lot of people will loose everything they have worked hard for, everything.
Many Joe average loses their house, their jobs and once that happens are chances are they loose their wife too, and hence kids. When you get mentally that broken, chances are you stop even trying and will soon loose your health too.
Meanwhile, those with deep pockets picks everything up on the cheap, and inflation being rampant means rents etc. go up they can get from your old house or apartment in the long run, pain now, but soon extreme income.
Same thing happens with pretty much every asset class you can think of. Stocks, crypto, businesses, commodities etc.
Steel mills are shutting down due to energy crisis for example, won't affect you directly, and you may never see the effect, but an factory build somewhere might get postponed or cancelled and now you cannot get the cheap trinket which never gets to exist.
Your living standards will be definitively affected, even if you fail to see it at first. A rising tide lifts all boats, the converse is true. AND that is what majority of people fail to see completely, it's not a net zero sum game, better economy is better for everyone around. Vice-versa.
For some people it might be just the difference of less gadgets etc., but it would be short sighted to shrug it away as business as usual. This is absolutely an crisis, headed towards a catastrophe.
Properly fixing this might take a decade. Considering first Green Ecoterrorism has to be stopped, probably 2 decades. People will need to be freezing and hungry before they start to even think about all the green ecoterrorist lies might be just that, lies.
Society as a whole might get out much stronger from this, but there's a lot of pain ahead for a lot of people before we can get back to the right track.
How much does Kremlin pays you to spread all this "apocalypse is coming for you europeans" rhetoric or you're doing it for free like @rcy026 which friends already lost their houses?
Some people actually care about other people. Without getting paid.
Yes, because of scaremongering and preaching about apocalypse in front of us over the internet means care for the other people. Who are you fooling.
Hey, currently you just spread another myth that in all Europe problem guilty Russia.
Europe problem begin when some decisions was made by European bureaucrats.
Sanctions against Russia and it's backward effect of course also does matter but it was not main reason of current problems.
No idea what "in all Europe problem guilty Russia" means, but the given your country has a civilian-murdering, women-raping and child-abducting military, "guilty" and "Russia" definitely belong in the same sentence.
Yeah, those clowns in charge of Europe should never have allowed themselves to become so reliant on a corrupt dictatorship like Russia.
Energy was explicitly excluded from the sanctions. It was Russia's choice to cut the supply. Although, actually I'm glad they did, as it'll hasten the change to other sources of energy and cut off your income that's financing your illegal occupation.
Sorry, but I prefer not to react to the cliches widely used by Western propagandists.
The truth hurts too much, eh?
This teen is turning out to be a turd.
Edit: FYI, LET is home to the second highest rate of "the end is nigh" after the Jehovah's Witnesses website on the Internet.
I've done no such thing, I have just pointed out that what you call an inconvenience is a catastrophe for a lot of people.
But I am kind of glad that we disagree, judging by the kind of human you seem to be I consider it a merit if you do not agree with me.
How many people does it have to affect for something to be a catastrophe?
In my book, catastrophe would be some event that was widely unexpected that had a huge impact of the lives of many people, for example a busy bridge collapsing, a huge train crash, etc. This will affect many people, but is expected and people and governments can start preparing now, and in fact most governments have.
Personally, I wouldn't call an increase in price of anything a catastrophe, as there are always other options. In this case, wearing a couple more layers of clothes would mitigate most of the problems that individuals face. People have been living for millenia without gas and coal delivered to their homes. The most basic home in Europe will provide more protection from the elements than a home from 200 years ago when there were no such amenities. Prices in general will go up, but then remember all those years of over 10% inflation in the 70s and 80s? And fuel for cars etc isn't a necessity for most individuals as we've learned that most of society can work from home during the pandemic.
I agree that many people will be inconvenienced. But it probably won't be as bad as the oil crisis in the 70s, and nobody went round calling that a catastrophe. They just got on with life as best they could.
It's said that gas is not only used as fuel or heat source, but also the raw material for some chemical production. With the ever-increasing gas price, some chemical producers might have to close down their European plants and move elsewhere to remain competitive.
Depends on who you ask. I would say that anything that greatly affects a persons life could be considered a catastrophe. @Mumbly would say that nothing is a catastrophe unless it affects him. So, in both our cases it only has to affect one person I guess.
Expected? If you asked an average joe 1 year ago if they think the price of electricity will go up 3000% in the next months, I would guess not a single one would have said yes. Start preparing now is a bit late, you do realize that this is something that has been going on for 10 months now?
We are not talking 10% inflation here, we are talking electricity bills going from £300 to £3000 a month. A lot of families do not have that kind of margins. If you are also one of the unlucky ones that lost their job due to the energy crisis, selling the house may be the only option.
Oil crisis in 70's lead to a 300% increase in oil prices for about 6 month.
This is a 1000% raise in electricity prices for almost a year now, and still going.
I still maintain that anything that makes people lose their job and have to sell their houses is a catastrophe, not an inconvenience.
I never said that. That's your interpretation because your lack of understanding, but don't forget to tell us again how great person you are. It seems like that's important to you. To emphasize how great you are and person you don't agree with isn't.
Well, most of the time you're just full of shit.