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The Nuclear Network Option: What Would This Really Do?
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The Nuclear Network Option: What Would This Really Do?

raindog308raindog308 Administrator

DNS is not my strength, but I'm a little confused here.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/ukraine-icann-russia-internet-runet-disconnection-1314278/

"According to an email reviewed by Rolling Stone, Ukraine’s request to the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) seeks to revoke domains issued in Russia and shut down primary Domain Name System (DNS) servers in the country — a move that would effectively bar access to Russian internet sites, with the potential of knocking the entire country offline."

It's Rolling Stone so who knows. And my question is not about Russia specifically.

If the world wanted to remove a country from the Internet, what would turning off their CCTLD really do? I mean, isn't that really all ICANN can do is drop the .ru root, right?

That wouldn't stop people inside Russia from accessiung a billion other sites on .com, .org, .eu, .party, .whatever, right, or am I missing something? So really all this does is say "the world can no longer do DNS on .ru domains" which for practical purposes eliminates them from the web and providing other services. But if I'm in Moscow, presumably I could still open a browser and go to LowEndTalk.com, right?

If one really wanted to remove a country from the network, wouldn't that have to be done at a lower layer, by not routing IPs from their networks? RIPE (and probably other) registries would have to report all the AS in Russia and then everyone else would have to agree to stop peering (refuse BGP BGP announcements) from them (I'm probably using the wrong terms because I'm not a network guy).

Of course the criteria of what is a Russian network is unclear. Would a Ford factory in Moscow have a Russian-assigned IP block or something from Ford's own IP stash? Ditto for hundreds of embassies, foreign organizations/companies, etc.

I suppose at an even lower level, of course, there is the physical layer of cutting cables and such though with satellites and google balloons and undersea cables and pigeon protocols and everything else these days, I'm not sure that's relevant.

Thanked by 1vero
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Comments

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    While we didn't dive into discussion yet, I would like to warn my Russian friends, that if they want to post something, this could be one of their last chances. According to the above post. And the speed sanctions are implemented these days.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator

    we can consider the question generically, pretend it’s North Korea, etc. i’m really just asking the theory rather than about current events, though obviously they spark the question.

    Thanked by 1kkrajk
  • KermEdKermEd Member

    @raindog308 said:
    we can consider the question generically, pretend it’s North Korea, etc. i’m really just asking the theory rather than about current events, though obviously they spark the question.

    I suspect it is more of creative interpretation by the rolling Stone magazine.

    I believe when they say bar access to Russian internet sites, they just mean bar the domain name extension.

    To your point I can't think of a way ICANN specifically can do more.

  • NyrNyr Member

    @raindog308 said: I mean, isn't that really all ICANN can do is drop the .ru root, right?

    Well, yes and no.

    Russia would be able to hijack DNS requests inside the country, and keep .ru resolution working for Russian citizens. Currently a Russian entity is managing the delegated name servers for the .ru ccTLD, and they can keep doing that without ICANN permission. Russian ISPs can just ignore root responses for the .ru zone, and impact would be minimal inside Russia.

    @raindog308 said: If one really wanted to remove a country from the network, wouldn't that have to be done at a lower layer, by not routing IPs from their networks?

    Yes, but Russia could then create a "de facto" isolated intranet similar to China, which would be detrimental to western interests in the mid and long term. And they would keep access to the global internet via China, just maybe not for the general population.

    @raindog308 said: everyone else would have to agree to stop peering (refuse BGP BGP announcements) from them

    Almost correct technically speaking, but this would be a HUGE mess and is unrealistic. A more viable approach would be to throttle international transit and peering for Russian networks, but this is still very unlikely to happen in my opinion due to the huge implications and it just being an useless thing to do.

    @raindog308 said: Of course the criteria of what is a Russian network is unclear.

    A network connected to equipment physically located in Russia. This includes many Russian PoPs of "western-owned" networks.

    @raindog308 said: I suppose at an even lower level, of course, there is the physical layer of cutting cables

    This would be an even biggest mess than the already crazy approaches previously suggested, because cables connecting third countries pass through Russia.

    @raindog308 said: with satellites and google balloons and undersea cables and pigeon protocols and everything else these days, I'm not sure that's relevant

    It is, because most bandwidth is provided by cables. Satellites and similar alternatives have very limited bandwidth and ultimately rely on cables anyway.

  • MannDudeMannDude Member, Host Rep

    Russian citizens deserve access to information and the internet just as much as American citizens or anyone else does.

    We have never isolated or petitioned that other nations go digitally dark...

    Private businesses like NameCheap can be as exclusive as they want, sure, but pushing organizations for a digital blackout is pretty insane.

    I support Ukraine in defending itself from a foreign invasion, but I also support the people of Russia by not having them suffer from meaningless bullying just because their government and Putin are assholes.

  • lowendclientlowendclient Member
    edited March 2

    Simply purchase to a suite of firewall made in China then turn on whitelist.
    You can try access Google in China :lol:

  • risharderisharde Member

    @MannDude said:
    Russian citizens deserve access to information and the internet just as much as American citizens or anyone else does.

    We have never isolated or petitioned that other nations go digitally dark...

    Private businesses like NameCheap can be as exclusive as they want, sure, but pushing organizations for a digital blackout is pretty insane.

    I support Ukraine in defending itself from a foreign invasion, but I also support the people of Russia by not having them suffer from meaningless bullying just because their government and Putin are assholes.

    While compassionate or trying to be fair to Russia, this would not apply pressure needed to make the sanction powerful. I am not saying the sanction is guaranteed to work but I hope you understand what I mean.

  • edited March 2

    @MannDude said:
    Russian citizens deserve access to information and the internet just as much as American citizens or anyone else does.

    We have never isolated or petitioned that other nations go digitally dark...

    Private businesses like NameCheap can be as exclusive as they want, sure, but pushing organizations for a digital blackout is pretty insane.

    I support Ukraine in defending itself from a foreign invasion, but I also support the people of Russia by not having them suffer from meaningless bullying just because their government and Putin are assholes.

    There is a much deeper reason why I disagree with dropping of Russia from internet access.

    At a broader level, no country is completely aligned with any other because each has its own, and often conflicting, interests. The sole reason alliances are formed between countries because they can find a few common points to agree on and take joint actions on them.

    Now, if such a step were to be taken by US-based organizations such as ICANN, IANA, US-based carriers, it would lead to every country (which would also include US allied countries) to introspect its dependencies on the US and foreign carriers, and the logical next step to eliminate it would be to create an isolated, per country, "balkanized" internet, something which ultimately threatens globalization and increases censorship.

    In some circles, globalization is a word that invokes bitterness and resentment, but ultimately, the relative period of peace and prosperity after WWII is a direct result of it. It has helped create an environment where zero sum games are discarded for positive sum games, when you can grow your economy and secure your future by way of trade, there is no need for war (except for dictators, who ultimately do not understand positive sum games, but that's a separate topic).

    In addition, this forum too is a consequence of globalization. Buying idlers in faraway locations is something that we enjoy, yet neither our obsession with getting the most bang for the buck, nor the providers' business where they serve a large client base all over the world, would have succeeded in a place where everyone was limited to our own borders.

    I get the urge of needing to do something in the current situation, but anything that further threatens the very foundations of peace is not something I want. Not to mention the fact that it would make the job of any would be dictators much easier, as they now get to tightly control all flow of information and suppress dissent.

    /soapbox

  • jenkkijenkki Member

    Battlefield moving to the virtual World? That really useless. With space enabled country. With own wide communication system.

  • xaocxaoc Member

    They're talking about disconnecting themselves from the internet so maybe no action is needed. Putin has been working for a while on an internal type network called runet, probably more restrictive than what they have in China.

  • hostdarehostdare Member, Patron Provider

    why only banning Russia ? ban usa and all its allies for invasion in iraq, afghnistan ? why Ukraine is so special than those countries which has face worse than Ukraine with US multi year invasion

  • xaocxaoc Member

    @hostdare said:
    why only banning Russia ? ban usa and all its allies for invasion in iraq, afghnistan ? why Ukraine is so special than those countries which has face worse than Ukraine with US multi year invasion

    In USA they won't care if they're unable to browse some random .md website, I think.

  • jenkkijenkki Member

    We call it some little bullshit makers. Folks still believe if they cut off cable people in other side get big troubles with it. Sounds funny.

    Problem is Western people still not recognize Rus mentality. Look into history.

    Thanked by 1default
  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @jenkki said:
    We call it some little bullshit makers. Folks still believe if they cut off cable people in other side get big troubles with it. Sounds funny.

    Problem is Western people still not recognize Rus mentality. Look into history.

    Most likely it really exist ("Солдат не жалеть, бабы ещё нарожают" sums it up it very well) and you'll have to live with it alone.

    Now I think I'd vote to leave internet in place in Russia, as they already have failed government, failed army and collapsing economy.. But what they did against free neighbouring nation is unthinkable and price for this must and will be very high.

  • jenkkijenkki Member

    @vero

    You are really like a kid, or overaged kid. No one wants war here and really apologize for simple Ukrainians.

    Why no one cares about people in Iraq, libya, Syria, Kosovo and Donbass? Why no one tried to massive information attack to their invaders and those who bomb them? Same people, may be only with different color of skin. That one side world you're appealing to. I was not won the battle but at least shit into their boots?

  • hostdarehostdare Member, Patron Provider
    edited March 2

    @jenkki said: Same people, may be only with different color of skin

    relatively "civilized"

  • kendidkendid Member

    While I don't approve of the genocide Russia is doing in Ukraine against Ukrainians i don't think disconnecting Russia from the internet is necessarily a good thing. It will only allow the propaganda machine to move ahead without Russian people having thr option to research and look into things themselves.

    Thanked by 1Maounique
  • ValdikSSValdikSS Member

    @lowendclient said:
    Simply purchase to a suite of firewall made in China then turn on whitelist.
    You can try access Google in China :lol:

    Unfortunately, Russia already has a wide range of Russian-made DPI systems, including what is called 'TSPU'. It's pretty capable, maybe not as capable as Chinese GFW, but it's getting close: it can block certain protocols, detect and block tunnels, etc.

    If anyone interested, we discuss Russian internet censorship here: https://ntc.party/c/internet-censorship-all-around-the-world/russia/12

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @jenkki said:
    @vero

    You are really like a kid, or overaged kid. No one wants war here and really apologize for simple Ukrainians.

    Basically you're apologizing for your brothers killing civilians in Ukraine. It's rather like slap in a face. But I also can understand you, just saying this happens because of an attitude (or rather absence of it) of a whole Russian nation. They go to die for nothing to sovereign country. Russians doesn't even pickup corpses for a week. They don't honor their soldiers alive or dead. That's why that quote was so important. I don't want you to feel guilty, just to understand why you'll have to suffer measures for your government actions. As I would for mine if they would f**k up all the way.

    Why no one cares about people in Iraq, libya, Syria, Kosovo and Donbass? Why no one tried to massive information attack to their invaders and those who bomb them? Same people, may be only with different color of skin. That one side world you're appealing to. I was not won the battle but at least shit into their boots?

    Short answer - when Russians come, they always occupy. They don't leave any chance for freedom. They don't go away. At least not leaving puppet government behind them.

  • jenkkijenkki Member

    @vero said: Basically you're apologizing for your brothers killing civilians in Ukraine.

    People is not a military and govs and cannot be responsible for their actions. Suggest you do not push all nation into one move.

    Why you not apologizing when your government with military 8 years continue to kill civilians in Donbass?
    Bomb buildings and schools? Shot out families and small kids? Only because they select other way to stay away. Do you think you never get responded for it? Time may be changed.

    @vero said: when Russians come, they always occupy. They don't leave any chance for freedom. They don't go away.

    Dude, look into history. Rus always help to obtain freedom for all nations who asking for help and always leave out without occupation. Soviet Union always do that. Do not tell bullshit please.

  • @jenkki said:
    Why no one cares about people in Iraq, libya, Syria, Kosovo and Donbass?

    Libya, Syria, Kosovo and Donbass are kinda civil war at beginning (Whatever who's behind).
    In Iraq period, the internet is not prosperous like today, people cares but only saw it on TV. US citizens protested as well, however there's a common excuse like 911.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    @jenkki said:

    Why you not apologizing when your government with military 8 years continue to kill civilians in Donbass?
    Bomb buildings and schools? Shot out families and small kids? Only because they select other way to stay away. Do you think you never get responded for it? Time may be changed.

    I'm not Ukrainian. But I know very well how Russian propaganda works.

    Dude, look into history. Rus always help to obtain freedom for all nations who asking for help and always leave out without occupation. Soviet Union always do that. Do not tell bullshit please.

    Wow. Looks like you really don't need internet as you didn't use it until now. At least not for propaganda.

    Thanked by 2kkrajk ernie88
  • xaocxaoc Member

    @jenkki said:

    @vero said: Basically you're apologizing for your brothers killing civilians in Ukraine.

    People is not a military and govs and cannot be responsible for their actions. Suggest you do not push all nation into one move.

    Both military and governments are comprised of people, not aliens and not cows(maybe some pigs there).

    Why you not apologizing when your government with military 8 years continue to kill civilians in Donbass?
    Bomb buildings and schools? Shot out families and small kids? Only because they select other way to stay away. Do you think you never get responded for it? Time may be changed.

    @vero said: when Russians come, they always occupy. They don't leave any chance for freedom. They don't go away.

    Dude, look into history. Rus always help to obtain freedom for all nations who asking for help and always leave out without occupation. Soviet Union always do that. Do not tell bullshit please.

    Soviet Union was actually created by occupying other nations, what are you even talking about... So much freedom in Ukraine right now, so much joy... oh, wait.

    Thanked by 3vero kkrajk ernie88
  • jenkkijenkki Member
    edited March 2

    @vero said: I know very well how Russian propaganda works

    I can tell the same to you. We seen massive information attacks from mass media controlled from west. Many info even not match really if check out

    @vero said: Wow. Looks like you really don't need internet as you didn't use it until now. At least not for propaganda.

    Show me examples please when Russians coming to some country and occupy them? Even never in history going overseas to colonize Asia or Africa

  • jenkkijenkki Member

    @xaoc said: Soviet Union was actually created by occupying other nations, what are you even talking about..

    Show me examples please.

  • xaocxaoc Member

    @jenkki said:

    @xaoc said: Soviet Union was actually created by occupying other nations, what are you even talking about..

    Show me examples please.

    All the ex ussr republics, the fuck?

  • jenkkijenkki Member

    @xaoc said: All the ex ussr republics, the fuck?

    Howdy shit.. :smiley: Suggest you look into historical documents first.

  • verovero Member, Host Rep

    Come on, this guy is trolling. He had an opportunity to learn history in school, but chose to be paid by Russian government instead. It's so beautiful to see forum (not only this) members showing who they really are. So I'll stop right here.

  • xaocxaoc Member

    @jenkki said:

    @xaoc said: All the ex ussr republics, the fuck?

    Howdy shit.. :smiley: Suggest you look into historical documents first.

    Soviet historical documents(propaganda)? Don't be silly.

  • jenkkijenkki Member

    @vero said: He had an opportunity to learn history in school, but chose to be paid by Russian government instead.

    Okay. You our best hero here, and all others just disturb you.

    @xaoc said: Soviet historical documents(propaganda)? Don't be silly.

    Which propaganda the best? Ours or yours?

    Thanked by 2hostdare kheng86
This discussion has been closed.