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Kiwix servers terminated by Hetzner - Page 2
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Kiwix servers terminated by Hetzner

245

Comments

  • @Benjiro said: A Email is not a secure way to ensure a proper termination!

    very well stated .

    I have some production stuff on Hetzner and pay like in 4 figures monthly , and every time i read story like this , i start looking for alternatives , Yes the price / performance ratio cant be beaten specially the Power Edge Servers + network uptime.
    Still its always depressing .

    Thanked by 2maverick r3k
  • @Benjiro said: They did not (if we check the original post)... Hetzner claims they send a mail, OP stated before they never got any termination mail from Hetzner (even checked their Spam Folder).

    So you're automatically assuming the OP is not lying while Hetzner is? Why so?

    @Benjiro said: email is NOT a secure (and legal) way to terminate one sided a contract

    Source? An email would be fine to terminate a contract e.g. at the end of a billing period etc.

    I've used Hetzner for many years for a number of different projects and they have always been solid. I use a decent amount of processing power and bandwidth and have never faced a single issue.

    At the end of the day if they don't want you as a customer, they don't need to accomodate you and by the sounds of it, it seems to be a T&C's issue.

  • @Benjiro said:

    @Silvenga said:
    Really makes me wonder what Hetzner has done to make their support so frustrating to work with....

    Probably the whole "too successful issue". When companies grow, at the start there is a major focus on customer gain and keeping customers. Over time as they grow, the whole support starts to become more expensive as more customers means more support = more personnel.

    So then you start to see the cost cutting behavior, where they start rejecting less profitable customers or potential risks (before given the people a change to prove they are not a risk customer), and at the same time, you also see the cost cutting on the support people.

    This behavior always seem to coincides with price increases. And there have been plenty of examples of that. AX entry systems are now 30% more expensive, Auctions have gone from 23 "lowest" to 40 "lowest", auction storage servers have now dead stops (where they are listed but will never count down), they did not in the past, the whole electricity increase (and "we promise to lower later", never did), the normal storage servers increases, the lack of improvements for years on their VPS prices/storage/memory (vs competition that is now better deals). I can go on as its a loooong list.

    Its not a surprise they cut back on communication. Fixing a issue for a low paying customer may cost them more money to fix it, then to just get rid of that customer. I am betting there has been some internal management change in the last few years, because that tends to coincides with those changes.

    Both Hetzner and OVH have become too big to care about their customers. It's rare that I contact support at large providers, but when I do it's due to an issue that is their fault and something that any reasonable provider would make an effort to get resolved. I can't think of a single case in recent years where they actually cared enough to even try to resolve an issue that I have brought up. It's always just excuses and/or flat out refusal to do anything.

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • @iKeyZ said:
    So you're automatically assuming the OP is not lying while Hetzner is? Why so?

    Where did i stated that Hetzner lied? Stop putting words in other people mouths.

    I clearly stated that OP said they never received a mail, Hetzer said they send, and we have @Neoon that instantly goes that OP lied because of what Hetzner said.

    I then explained why emails are a bad way to send terminations because they never arrive, be stuck in limbo, get filtered by spam filters, etc. So OP missing a mail can be as true, as Hetzner sending the mail can be true. The issue is there is no follow-up and now Hetzner is stuck with "we send a mail" but that is not really informing a customer of a rather drastic change in their account status if its possible that the mail got lost / spam filtered, no? You get the issue ...

    Thunderbird here for instance when it spam filters, deletes those mails after 30 days. So, you can have "received a mail" but "never received a mail", with not even proof you got it, despite you getting it. So nobody lied but both parties are now up a creek with no paddle.

    This is why mail are notoriously bad for terminations of contracts and a issue in a lot of countries legally.

    Source? An email would be fine to terminate a contract e.g. at the end of a billing period etc.

    Too many legal issues with emails when its brought into court. See the stated above. This is why again, the long text for things that Hetzner can improve to ENSURE that a terminated customer is informed (and it also legally covers their behinds).

    At the end of the day if they don't want you as a customer, they don't need to accomodate you and by the sounds of it, it seems to be a T&C's issue.

    That is their right, the issue is when you start deleting a customers property, and yes, your files and data is your property. Even when hosted on a 3th party service. This is why as a business, you need to do more then just send a mail, to cover your behind legally.

    We seen the same issue with payments that expire, and accounts getting deleted. All it does is create a negative impression on the host provider. I am actually helping Hetzner by pointing out these issues so that both parties in the future with any termination, are more secure and no claims can be made that they never got a mail.

    As stated, its way easier to block the ips, and have the customer contact support. So you have multiple "judge, we did X, then Y, then Z BEFORE we deleted the customers account (and their data)".

    Thanked by 1karanchoo
  • @Benjiro said: So you have multiple "judge, we did X, then Y, then Z BEFORE we deleted the customers account (and their data)".

    It doesn't matter. 2.7 of their ToS say "we reserve the right to terminate the contractual relationship without notice for good cause." If they had a reason to cancel the service, it doesn't matter whether the client was informed beforehand or not, even though out of courtesy they usually would.

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that under the ToS, they're entitled to cancel the service without notice.

  • @Benjiro said: I then explained why emails are a bad way to send terminations because they never arrive, be stuck in limbo, get filtered by spam filters

    When you sign up for the service you'd know if you had emails or not - known contacts should be added to a list to avoid being sent to spam/removed. It's unlikely if the OP has had emails beforehand that they have been filtered now. Emails are fine to receive communications.

    What other form would you suggest? Phone calls can be missed/lost due to signal, letters can go missing etc etc.

    @Benjiro said: That is their right, the issue is when you start deleting a customers property, and yes, your files and data is your property. Even when hosted on a 3th party service. This is why as a business, you need to do more then just send a mail, to cover your behind legally.

    You keep mentioning to cover them legally - where is this illegal? If they've sent notice and have proof of such, it's on the OP. By the sounds of it, they gave notice too which is completely fine.

  • @karanchoo said:

    @Benjiro said: A Email is not a secure way to ensure a proper termination!

    very well stated .

    I have some production stuff on Hetzner and pay like in 4 figures monthly , and every time i read story like this , i start looking for alternatives , Yes the price / performance ratio cant be beaten specially the Power Edge Servers + network uptime.
    Still its always depressing .

    I'm in a similar situation.
    I'm planning to move important stuff away from Hetzner.

  • As said multiple times before - hetzner is not suitable for production. They have no respect towards customer, they do not care.

    Thanked by 3jsg yoursunny karanchoo
  • We obviously can't know the actual specifics to each case but you can kinda follow the dots right? Hetzner has been expanding, high profile(-ish) customer terminations, bandwidth/pricing changes. Isn't this just part of the normal lifecycle of big providers?

  • @Benjiro said:
    You may be surprised how much controversial political stuff is on Wikipedia. Mentionings political dissidents, some event in the 1989 in China, etc... you get the idea. And that is just one country i can think... Plenty more countries that see information in wikipedia that they rather not want to see (even some western allied countries).

    The controversial stuff is what makes people come and stay engaged. Facebook is dead because no one goes there for the pictures and memes, and their censorship neutered the real conversation so the only "words" written on facebook are spam, ads, and groups for people who like to preach to the choir.

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    @Benjiro said:

    @Neoon said:

    @Hetzner_OL said:
    Hi there, as some untrue news is making its way about this case: There was a notice of termination via email with a deadline in accordance with our T&C, on 30 October 2024. Our team has already been in contact with this customer several times and we also have the transmission protocol of the communication. You can all rest assured that we do not close accounts randomly. There is always a specific and legitimate reason for doing so, such as abuse of our services, not following our terms and conditions, etc. So please make sure you comply with our T&C: https://www.hetzner.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/.

    So they lied, I see.

    They did not (if we check the original post)... Hetzner claims they send a mail, OP stated before they never got any termination mail from Hetzner (even checked their Spam Folder).

    Somebody fucked up or is lying, Hetzner says they send emails, he said he got none.
    Whoever this is, I personally don't care.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker
    edited December 2024

    @Hetzner_OL said:
    Hi there, as some untrue news is making its way about this case: There was a notice of termination via email with a deadline in accordance with our T&C, on 30 October 2024. Our team has already been in contact with this customer several times and we also have the transmission protocol of the communication. You can all rest assured that we do not close accounts randomly. There is always a specific and legitimate reason for doing so, such as abuse of our services, not following our terms and conditions, etc. So please make sure you comply with our T&C: https://www.hetzner.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/.

    You of course get to tell your version of the story too and deserve to not be attacked personally.

    But (a) of bloody course an official speaker/representative of a corporation always will say that they acted perfectly legally and according to the(ir) rules. And (b) there's also the @Silvenga report ... and many others.

    A decent company wouldn't play Kafka with customers but rather try to really help them, to get their own problems solved, and to find reasonable solutions for relatively minor "sins" like e.g. limiting bandwidth rather than cutting off a customer in case of too much traffic.

    But then, so much seems to have become clear, Hetzner is not a decent company, at least not anymore.

    @Neoon said:

    @Hetzner_OL said:
    [basically "we are totally innocent, he/they are evil guys"]

    So they lied, I see.

    Maybe - or maybe not. To judge that one would need (all the relevant) facts. But we do not have the facts, all we have are two stories, one of which came from an employee who is paid to make the company look good.

    You might as well believe the lawyer of a rapist, telling you "she wanted it!"

    The only accusation against Kiwix I see so far that could stand is "You are obviously stupid! If you were not you'd have chosen a good, serious, and reliable provider for such a project - and definitely not Hetzner! aka kafkaesque games".

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker
    edited December 2024

    To avoid misunderstandings: Yes, Hetzner is (a) a large company ~ with thousands upon thousands of customers, and (b) often among the cheapest if not the cheapest with many of their products.

    This necessarily leads to a problematic situation: either they "optimize" support in terms of work and cost -or- they take a hit in terms of profits. The only way out known so far is using AI which comes with its own set of drawbacks and problems.
    Either way, at least one side will be unhappy, usually the customers.

    Also, looked at from a technical point of view it may seem to make sense for a lot of people. Something along the lines of "many customers are with them since quite a few years and experienced high reliability. Support usually is needed only at the beginning, so it's low risk to try them. Worst case is the cost of one month lost" - but there is a but and a very ugly one, in fact even two. (a) police, judges, your customers(!) tend to care little about technology but a lot about legal aspects incl. the fine print, and (b) a clause that says something to the effect of "we can terminate your contract and/or service whenever we please and without even providing a reason" may be acceptable for purely private use but should be a red alert blinking and a deal killer for any even half-serious use!

    TL;DR: Make your choice, either pay a few dollars more with a decent provider -or- basically sign a blank sheet of paper - because that's what Hetzner's and OVH's contracts/TOS boil down to, plus, as should be well known by now, utterly kafkaesque "support".

  • Hetzner_OLHetzner_OL Member, Top Host
    edited December 2024

    Hi everyone, Our teams who review such cases do so on a case-by-case basis. We do not use AI or automated systems for these situations, but review them manually.
    As a general rule of thumb, we try to avoid commenting about these cases publicly. We do that so we can protect the affected customers' personal data.
    But this doesn't mean that we're not in contact with the customer, which we are in this case.

  • allthemtingsallthemtings Member, Megathread Squad

    @Hetzner_OL said:
    Hi everyone, Our teams who review such cases do so on a case-by-case basis. We do not use AI or automated systems for these situations, but review them manually.
    As a general rule of thumb, we try to avoid commenting about these cases publicly. We do that so we can protect the affected customers' personal data.
    But this doesn't mean that we're not in contact with the customer, which we are in this case.

    📉📉📉📉📉

    Thanked by 1sidewinder
  • AdvinAdvin Member, Host Rep
    edited December 2024

    We are looking to move our colocation racks for similar reasons and we've already cancelled almost all of our dedicated servers and cloud compute with them. Hetzner is not really friendly to resellers like us. I don't want to have to be in a situation where I need to move an entire rack of equipment within 30 days (an impossible task incurring $XX,XXX costs: finding a new suitable datacenter, having new racks deployed in a few days, getting a new network setup, shipping equipment, etc) because Hetzner suddenly decides that we aren't a suitable client for them. No other colocation datacenter would do something similar.

    I've seen other hosting providers get terminated with a 30-day notice to get out. It really sucks when I've seen providers pay $X,XXX monthly, and then receive one of these notices. Hetzner will not work with you at all and will never give you a reason. If it is because of large amounts of traffic or incompatibility in business models, then they should just say that.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @Hetzner_OL said:
    Hi everyone, Our teams who review such cases do so on a case-by-case basis. We do not use AI or automated systems for these situations, but review them manually.
    As a general rule of thumb, we try to avoid commenting about these cases publicly. We do that so we can protect the affected customers' personal data.
    But this doesn't mean that we're not in contact with the customer, which we are in this case.

    "Teams"? So, not even just single persons?

    Sorry, I don't believe that. What I'm willing to believe is that a real human support person, or maybe even a team, looks at those few cases which come up to the public surface (like the Kiwix case).

    Believing that your company actually and really has a human support person looking into every case, let alone with teams, would, with your pricing, translate to your company cutting corners elsewhere, quite likely on tech, infrastructure, in short on product quality.

    Besides there's a reason for your "sign a blank paper" TOS. You, in fact, do not even have a need to look into every case, and as has been shown often already, you indeed often do not respond reasonably even to serious problems like e.g. with your online user interface, payment gateways, etc.

    And no. those are not "regrettable exceptions" because that would mean that your company employs stupid idiots who do not even recognize a blinking red warning flag when they see it. I think I can be forgiven to refuse to believe that you have blind and stupid idiots in your support department.

  • allthemtingsallthemtings Member, Megathread Squad

    @Advin said:
    We are looking to move our colocation racks for similar reasons and we've already cancelled almost all of our dedicated servers and cloud compute with them. Hetzner is not really friendly to resellers like us. I don't want to have to be in a situation where I need to move an entire rack of equipment within 30 days because Hetzner suddenly decides that we aren't a suitable client for them. No other colocation datacenter would do something similar.

    I've seen other hosting providers get terminated with a 30-day notice to get out. It really sucks when I've seen providers pay $X,XXX monthly, and then receive one of these notices. Hetzner will not work with you at all and will never give you a reason. If it is because of large amounts of traffic or incompatibility in business models, then they should just say that.

    Imagine if they booted a provider such as @labze the trickle down would be catastrophic, huge damage - Ive seen several huge spenders booted off Hetzner without a real reason and given a 30 day window to move everything off....again without a real reason

  • allthemtingsallthemtings Member, Megathread Squad

    @allthemtings said:

    @Advin said:
    We are looking to move our colocation racks for similar reasons and we've already cancelled almost all of our dedicated servers and cloud compute with them. Hetzner is not really friendly to resellers like us. I don't want to have to be in a situation where I need to move an entire rack of equipment within 30 days because Hetzner suddenly decides that we aren't a suitable client for them. No other colocation datacenter would do something similar.

    I've seen other hosting providers get terminated with a 30-day notice to get out. It really sucks when I've seen providers pay $X,XXX monthly, and then receive one of these notices. Hetzner will not work with you at all and will never give you a reason. If it is because of large amounts of traffic or incompatibility in business models, then they should just say that.

    Imagine if they booted a provider such as @labze the trickle down would be catastrophic, huge damage - Ive seen several huge spenders booted off Hetzner without a real reason and given a 30 day window to move everything off....again without a real reason

    It’s not my business to name but pixeldrain publicly stated multiple times he was booted from hetzner without a real reason and he had hundreds of servers and multiple PB of data he had to move off within a unrealistic 30 day window…that’s a tens of thousands of dollars per month customer and that’s how he got treated. Do you think they care about your 1/2 100€ server?

    Thanked by 2jsg Cybr
  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    So, summary:

    Hetzner: Everything is fine, our support teams look at any problems customer might experience.

    Reality: A storm is brewing, even large customers have had enough of Hetzner's Kafka games and terminations without even providing a reason.

    @Hetzner_OL

    I get it, Sophia and Lea, it's your job, you're getting paid for denying and painting a sunny picture.

    But frankly, it might be smarter to talk to your boss(es) and ask for permission to state at least some truth, something like "Sorry, yes, we did fuck up in quite a few cases. But then please also see our side: with our prices we just have to cut some corners - and you all want those low prices. But we pinky promise to extend our support team by 2, maybe even 3 persons".

  • AdvinAdvin Member, Host Rep
    edited December 2024

    @jsg said:
    So, summary:

    Hetzner: Everything is fine, our support teams look at any problems customer might experience.

    Reality: A storm is brewing, even large customers have had enough of Hetzner's Kafka games and terminations without even providing a reason.

    @Hetzner_OL

    I get it, Sophia and Lea, it's your job, you're getting paid for denying and painting a sunny picture.

    But frankly, it might be smarter to talk to your boss(es) and ask for permission to state at least some truth, something like "Sorry, yes, we did fuck up in quite a few cases. But then please also see our side: with our prices we just have to cut some corners - and you all want those low prices. But we pinky promise to extend our support team by 2, maybe even 3 persons".

    It doesn't matter at the end of the day. The amount of money that they'd lose from a thread like this is inconsequential compared to the amount of revenue they have. To be considered big in Hetzner’s eyes, I assume you have to be in the €20,000+ per month range given that Hetzner is one of the largest server providers in Europe. I don’t think you even get an account manager or centralized point of contact even at €XX,XXX/month.

    Thanked by 2jsg allthemtings
  • loayloay Member
    edited December 2024

    Update from reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/1ha5qgk/comment/m1d9byp/

    The_other_kiwix_guy:

    Got the email, thank you for that.

    Dear Kiwix
    
    This is to inform you that your account K0799712724 and all services you have with us are going to be cancelled.
    
    The cancellation is being done in accordance with our Terms and Conditions (https://www.hetzner.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/). The official cancellation date is the end of next month, 30.11.2024.
    
    If you have servers that you would like to cancel to an earlier date, you can do so via the client web interface. Any servers that have not been marked for cancellation by the end of the month, will be automatically cancelled to the end of next month.
    
    If you have domains registered via Hetzner, you will have to transfer them to a new registrar within the cancellation period.
    
    This decision is final and cannot be appealed. Thank you for your understanding.
    
    Kind regards
    
    Your Hetzner Online Team
    

    We still don't know what caused the cancellation but it is what it is. Does not sound like we broke the TOS so that's kind of a relief on our end.

    Case closed.

  • networknetwork Member
    edited December 2024

    @loay said:
    Update from reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/1ha5qgk/comment/m1d9byp/

    The_other_kiwix_guy:

    Got the email, thank you for that.

    Dear Kiwix
    
    This is to inform you that your account K0799712724 and all services you have with us are going to be cancelled.
    
    The cancellation is being done in accordance with our Terms and Conditions (https://www.hetzner.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/). The official cancellation date is the end of next month, 30.11.2024.
    
    If you have servers that you would like to cancel to an earlier date, you can do so via the client web interface. Any servers that have not been marked for cancellation by the end of the month, will be automatically cancelled to the end of next month.
    
    If you have domains registered via Hetzner, you will have to transfer them to a new registrar within the cancellation period.
    
    This decision is final and cannot be appealed. Thank you for your understanding.
    
    Kind regards
    
    Your Hetzner Online Team
    

    We still don't know what caused the cancellation but it is what it is. Does not sound like we broke the TOS so that's kind of a relief on our end.

    Case closed.

    lol so there was no reason? They just felt like it?

    Thanked by 3allthemtings jsg Cybr
  • allthemtingsallthemtings Member, Megathread Squad
    edited December 2024

    They have been untouchable for years in terms of price/performance/support its a shame what's happened in the past 12 months or so...I personally wouldn't touch them for anything i give a shit about after seeing more and more incidents in the past few months all with a common theme of no real answer for termination

    What a shame. Oh well back to OVH

  • allthemtingsallthemtings Member, Megathread Squad

    @network said:

    @loay said:
    Update from reddit:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/1ha5qgk/comment/m1d9byp/

    The_other_kiwix_guy:

    Got the email, thank you for that.

    Dear Kiwix
    
    This is to inform you that your account K0799712724 and all services you have with us are going to be cancelled.
    
    The cancellation is being done in accordance with our Terms and Conditions (https://www.hetzner.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/). The official cancellation date is the end of next month, 30.11.2024.
    
    If you have servers that you would like to cancel to an earlier date, you can do so via the client web interface. Any servers that have not been marked for cancellation by the end of the month, will be automatically cancelled to the end of next month.
    
    If you have domains registered via Hetzner, you will have to transfer them to a new registrar within the cancellation period.
    
    This decision is final and cannot be appealed. Thank you for your understanding.
    
    Kind regards
    
    Your Hetzner Online Team
    

    We still don't know what caused the cancellation but it is what it is. Does not sound like we broke the TOS so that's kind of a relief on our end.

    Case closed.

    lol so there was no reason? They just felt like it?

    Yup thats the common theme it seems

  • allthemtingsallthemtings Member, Megathread Squad

    Your EX44 about to get choked slammed any day now @emgh

  • @allthemtings said:
    Your EX44 about to get choked slammed any day now @emgh

    he has diplomatic immunity now, they can't touch him... :D

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker
    edited December 2024

    @Advin said:

    @jsg said:
    So, summary:

    Hetzner: Everything is fine, our support teams look at any problems customer might experience.

    Reality: A storm is brewing, even large customers have had enough of Hetzner's Kafka games and terminations without even providing a reason.

    @Hetzner_OL

    I get it, Sophia and Lea, it's your job, you're getting paid for denying and painting a sunny picture.

    But frankly, it might be smarter to talk to your boss(es) and ask for permission to state at least some truth, something like "Sorry, yes, we did fuck up in quite a few cases. But then please also see our side: with our prices we just have to cut some corners - and you all want those low prices. But we pinky promise to extend our support team by 2, maybe even 3 persons".

    It doesn't matter at the end of the day. The amount of money that they'd lose from a thread like this is inconsequential compared to the amount of revenue they have. To be considered big in Hetzner’s eyes, I assume you have to be in the €20,000+ per month range given that Hetzner is one of the largest server providers in Europe. I don’t think you even get an account manager or centralized point of contact even at €XX,XXX/month.

    Maybe - or maybe not. After all LET is one of the major places worldwide people look at before hosting decisions are made.

    The way I see it our job as LETsters is to make sure that potential and actual customers of any provider get to see both, the good and the bad. Which also means to make corpses certain companies try to keep deep under water come up to the surface.

    Personally I have no problem with Hahahatzner, I'm not a customer of theirs (for a good reason) and if some or even many fall for their low-prices seduction I don't care. What I do care about though is that before or when "signing" people should know, what they're signing.

    Some might disagree but IMO it's very valuable and powerful, when even providers tell their story. So, thank you!

    @all

    Get it already! A company treating even customers worth thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars revenue per month measly, even despicably, do you really think, that they'll treat you, a hundred or so dollar per month customer well?

    Hence I suggest to start something constructive and useful: Name dedi providers who are not much more expensive but actually treat their customers well!

    I'll start with the provider where my friend and colleague and myself got a dedi and since have a consistently positive experience, incl. exceptionally good support: AlphaVPS / @AlexBarakov.

    Feel free, even invited, to join in!

    Thanked by 1loay
  • @allthemtings said:
    They have been untouchable for years in terms of price/performance/support its a shame what's happened in the past 12 months or so...I personally wouldn't touch them for anything i give a shit about after seeing more and more incidents in the past few months all with a common theme of no real answer for termination

    What a shame. Oh well back to OVH

    Me too. I am moving my data and discussing with clients this case.

    Thanked by 1allthemtings
  • loayloay Member
    edited December 2024

    I am wondering if this is the reason, which is still common use case:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/hetzner/comments/1ha5qgk/comment/m18te00/

    • > Visits kiwix github repos
    • > Finds out they are using bot farm to scrape web content into Zim files
    • > Knows exactly why Hetzner cancelled their account
    • > Leaves this comment so you can sip your tea in peace
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