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INCERO - Holding hardware hostage & some extras
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See my previous reply for what I want. INCERO charged me some extra fee for paying with PayPal (which is right, because PayPal's more expensive for them) and that price includes some sort of buyer protection, so why not make us of it?
Wait:
At WHT he requested that you cancel all disputes and pay the 03 months.
Even Gordon says to help him with the move
Okay. So then this is a lie:
I don't understand why this is so hard for you.
I am not disputing the legitimacy of the payment or the fact that it was authorized. What I do claim is that I'm unhappy with the service they've provided me and that they've taken my hardware hostage (there's not a single line in their TOS authorizing them to do so, even if I would've accepted them).
Haha. Best comment so far. :-)
I'd agree it's a dead end anyway, even without judging either side...
possible options?
1) Pay the invoice by wire transfer. Without iban you might need to move to your bank personally. Be aware that it might take quite a while, even weeks to transfer money to the US that way. Hope that you get your hardware shipped after that.
2) let them have your hardware and try to get as much money back through chargeback as possible. Depends on what those boxes are worth... might be less time involved and the european sight of law may be in your favour for having the banks act as you prefer them to.
if you study law you should know that there is some kind of 'Pfandrecht' in nearly every civil laws without the need of TOS declaring it. So a business might hold your whatever hostage until you pay. That also applies to european countries for sure.
Don't get me wrong, I don't appreciate business done like that, but if you decide to do business in US better be prepared for such... manners. I don't believe an attourney or the local police over there will help you much with that. They won't care if @jarland Is going to shoot someone in the back after grabbing an old xbox through his open window, so why should they bother about some damn servers...
That's fine, it's just not a counter argument against my opinion. For clarification and simplification, my opinion was this:
Main reason for my post was to point out where the OP's legal viewpoint comes from, as it seems to differ significantly from an US point of view. However, I run a business since decades, as you know. I read any TOS and every contract that I have to sign, but I have an university degree in law and fully understand what I read. I am aware that most people out there do not read anything and just sign. But I also think that consumers have to get protected somehow, much more than businesses. Making them state that they read and agreed to the TOS makes everything much easier in the end, for both sides. No idea why US companies don't do that by default to avoid any hassle. Probably because you don't have to. However, it would just be a single checkbox in a HTML form that could make a thread like this end within minutes.
Still, I don't care too much either. I was just bored, couldn't sleep and wanted to scrimshank from brushing my teeth.
I just wanted to take a moment to let you know that I think you're a terrible person for making a bastardization of that conversation part of this, and I would appreciate it if you would not.
Exploiting my emotional state during a personal event that I intentionally kept to the "cest pit" thread and taking it out of context to draw an inaccurate image of me for public consumption is far from appreciated.
(To be clear, at no time have I ever stated a desire to shoot someone in the back through an open window as they steal an old xbox)
Even most US companies I've worked with ask you to accept their terms or TOS. Sometimes they're even on the quote and you need to sign/explicitly accept the quote before they provide anything.
A lot of people here agree that you are bound by the terms of a contract that you never agreed to?
That would be like paying for your food at McDonalds and when you get to the pickup window they say that you owe an extra $5 that was stated in their terms of service.
The only ethical way to do business is to have the customer agree to all charges, terms and provisions and to have them signal that they agree and understand with some type of click or signature.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that he may be legally bound to it. Morally? Perhaps, because it's not unreasonable to go in search of said TOS from the perspective of understanding what is common in this industry. But if he doesn't want to be moral, and would rather exercise his legal rights, that's his business. That's his right. It should just give someone else pause before doing large business with him, because one might desire legal council before doing so, to ensure that this person is not going to try to stab them in the back later.
And I don't see why Psychz and other companies do a lot to ensure that the client is aware of what he's signing up for (for example by including their terms in the quote) and INCERO doesn't. On top of that the first invoice from INCERO was quite detailed, for example it said "1 x Background Check Fee for 24/7/365 Access, $25/Person, Billed when access is requested, No persons with any criminal history permitted within building @ 0.00". So they cared enough to inform me that a background check costing $25 is required if I want to access the building, but not that there's a 6 month minimal term?
So Psychz and other companies include their terms in their quote, and INCERO just puts them on their website and then it's common in the industry (although most companies do the opposite)?
How can you be morally bound by a contract that wasn't presented to you? You might have too many friends at Incero to be objective here.
It's common for the TOS to be available, is what I'm saying. I have no idea what you did or didn't do during signup. I'm merely stating that the fact that you did nothing to seek out and read a TOS, while having one readily available (as theirs is), is a very common industry practice. Now that you know what is in the TOS that you took no time to seek out, you wish to state that you never agreed to it. That's fine, that may be very legal for you to do so.
Someone doing business with you in any large scale needs to very much make sure that they have their ducks in a row, to be sure that you won't try to stab them in the back later by invoking your legal rights against them. One should seek legal council before doing business with you on any large scale, just to make sure they're safe. Perhaps I'm just from a small town where a hand shake is an agreement and one values their own reputation. You don't, that's fine. That's your right. As is mine to think less of you for it. It's not going to color my opinion of you forever, I probably won't remember this thread in 6 hours.
Because it's in the footer of their website, and knowing how to purchase things in this industry I go out and read it before I lay down large amounts of cash. Who I'm friends with doesn't change that I try not to be an idiot when I spend large money, and then hold others accountable for my idiocy.
I would have thought if it was a 6 month term for the deal, Incero would charge all 6 up front and not go m2m on it. Is that not common?
Noted. I admit I did not think nor care about the publicity difference between this thread or cest pit. Feel free to move it over anyways.
I'm from a small town too (near Lenoir,NC which you know is way out there), and as a provider if a customer tells me they were unaware and I don't have a specific email, contract or web-acceptance where they accepted my terms, I'm going to be the better provider and give them the benefit of the doubt. Happy customers are worth more to me than a couple months of colo even if I think I'm right. Afterwards I would probably also change my process so that future customers don't unknowingly get caught in that 'trap'.
That's a totally valid viewpoint. I should say, what I would do as a provider differs wildly from what I expect others to do for me as a customer, or that I would hold them accountable for.
This thread has just turned into a discussion about law in different countries and everything that needs to be said has been as such I am closing it.
If anyone feels they have legal standing against a provider please consult a lawyer before posting in public.