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INCERO - Holding hardware hostage & some extras
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Whether or not there's a legal case or precedent just isn't my expertise. I'm just talking casual understanding of what is normal in our industry, and having a link to a terms of service in your footer is in no way a variation from what is considered normal, acceptable, or unhidden. Feel free to disagree, I've just seen more than enough to consider it quite standard. Again, it has nothing to do with what's legal. It has to do with what I think is morally and intellectually sound. I think he has to be lacking one of those two to pursue this route, that's all. Morality or intellect. Pick one.
Not my job to care though, I'm merely producing commentary. Ryan's my bro, the title caught my eye.
@ascendrix your provider tag should be removed, IMO.
For obvious reasons, it certainly wouldn't be from me. I know enough not to take any action where I can be biased, I never hear the end of it. I will make commentary though
On what basis? People shouldn't be able to speak out, ask for help, opinions?
I know that it was stupid not to look for TOS or ask for them. I learned my lesson. And if you look for morality you're sure as hell not gonna find it in the US legal system.
Okay. That satisfies my curiosity.
Just check out some death penalty cases. People get assigned "public defenders" who are completely useless and then innocent people land on death row (that's not too really the case in Texas though).
I'm glad to hear that you believe that US law is immoral and therefore is able to assist you in your efforts.
This is all very simple- do both parties have a signed contract that includes TOS and other documents? If yes read it, if no - shame on both parties.
In the US it's the providers responsibility to present you with the terms of service and make you perform some action (signature/click). This normally isn't enough to win any court cases still, which is why so many companies make you scroll the whole agreement or wait x seconds. Those techniques still lose unless the provider can prove that you understood.
@jarland
1. Not saying that US law is immoral, but that some aspects of the US legal system are. In fact most, if not all countries have immoral aspects in their legal system.
2. In my opinion (I know I'm biased) both I and INCERO are at fault (not from a legal perspective). I am at fault, because I didn't ask for TOS or terms. INCERO is at fault, because they should've pointed that out. When I asked Psychz for a quote the terms where on the quote.
This :
Wanna give kids free lessons when it comes to doing business on the cost of your own time and resources ? As a provider and as a client.
Without reading three pages... can someone summary this?
From a legal perspective I agree 100% with you (there are some limitations to this since it was a B2B transaction). From a logical/reasonable perspective I should've asked for their TOS or terms.
Yeah:
1. I signed up for a service with INCERO without actually checking out their website or asking for any TOS or terms (my fault). INCERO didn't point anything out either.
2. I wanna cancel my service and INCERO claims that according to their TOS (which I didn't accept) the minimum term's 6 months.
3. I ask'em to ship out hardware and they refused.
Conclusion: I learned a lesson. In the future I'll always ask for TOS or terms and not rely on the UCC or other statutes.
Not worth it.
@jarland: Just to give a little insight from the european perspective here - I am not sure about the laws in Switzerland, but here in Germany, you have to EXPLICITELY agree to any TOS, otherwise it does not become part of the contract. At least when it comes to online business between companies and consumers. However, in this case we do neither know which legislation is relevant (I suppose US law as the place of fulfillment is within the USA) and we do not know whether the OP ordered as a company or as a consumer.
I am not taking any sides here (Gordon behaved strange so often from an outside pow that I do no longer care if he is an ass or not) - just want to help you understand the OP's legal standpoint better (even if it might be wrong) from another (legal) cultural perspective.
I'll check the UCC or other applicable statues tomorrow. I believe that the same applies in the US, even for B2B transactions, otherwise standard rules laid out in the UCC/other applicable statues apply for whatever the parties haven't agreed on. Thanks for your giving your insight.
You'll check tomorrow but you figured it would be a great idea to fire this thread today ?
Wow.
/thread for me.
That's where, if I'm truthful, I just don't care as much. Having a legal leg to stand on is of value, but would I personally do any large business with someone who will invoke their legal rights in this case? I mean, I don't think I would. I think it's an issue of personal integrity. I have many legal rights that I do not invoke often in life, simply because burning bridges is something I think you should tread carefully on. I legally have the ability to ask my landlord to fix a lot of things, and many of them I fix myself simply because we're on good terms and I consider it polite.
You pick your battles in life, and I don't think this is one that I would pick. I don't think it's reasonable to have not read the TOS before going in on a deal like that, and I don't think that I would hold someone else accountable for my refusal to do so. Especially not along with disputing all of my payments for previously rendered services. Whether or not it was my legal right to do so.
What legal statue applies is not within the scope of this thread and I'm 99.999% sure (and you can check what others said) that I would've had to explicitly agree to INCERO's TOS for them to be a part of the contract.
Just because Incero is invoking their desired contractual rights doesn't mean you shouldn't use them.
I do not dispute these payment nor do I expect a refund.
So you're lying now or you lied earlier?
All he is saying is that he never agreed to any term. So far they delivered and he paid, he just wants to stop and take his equipment.
I filed a complaint, not a claim that the transaction is unauthorized. I'll also call PayPal tomorrow and if these complaint withdrew funds from INCERO's PayPal account or suspended them I'll withdraw the complaint.
I thought that this was already solved in WHT, I finished amicably
@ascendrix
It really sucks you are dealing with this issue. I suggest continuing to work with Incero as much as you can, perhaps finding a reasonable compromise.
There is a Consumer Protection Division of the Texas government (office in Austin) that may be able to receive a complaint, if you choose to file one.
Exactly. Business partnerships are meant to make your life easier, not harder. Co-location can be cheaper, but that is not always the case especially when customers provide their own hardware. It is on the customer to be aware what they are signing up for prior to signing up. Although, if the provider tricked you into something ("bait and switch"), that would be a valid complaint (I have had to file such complaints against companies here in Texas), but does not sound like that is what happened with you.
No he isn't. How did you read that from "I do not dispute these payment nor do I expect a refund." Which, by the way, is a direct response from him saying this:
...
Would you care to tell me what PayPal calls that? Might that be a....dispute? You said you did it on every single payment so it wasn't just to open a line of communication. You disputed every charge for previously rendered service.
I mean do what you want, but don't lie to me.
No, what I expect to resolve this is: either Gordon/INCERO produce evidence that I agreed and understood their TOS (which he can't, because I neither read nor agreed nor understood them before placing the order) or that they just ship out my equipment and then we'll go separate ways.