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Online.net Announce NL Location

13

Comments

  • @TheLinuxBug said:
    You know, I was thinking I wouldn't mind testing their Amsterdam location but then I see every server they have has 20 Euro setup. For some reason I just can't see spending that type of money to test a network out. Has the routing actually gotten any better since the start? I see they peer AMS-IX but do they have any other good peering besides back through their France infrastructure?

    Anyone have any test files which can be downloaded to test their network?

    Cheers!

    just check https://status.online.net/weathermap/

  • From what I can tell it only provides test files for their French location. I would like to actually test throughput to different NL networks, so I am wanting a test file that I can download to see what that is like.

    If I am blind and just don't see it, please do feel free to provide a direct test file link for me and I will be happy to pass along a 'Thanks' :)

    Cheers!

  • SpacedustSpacedust Member
    edited August 2016

    Using Cogent network I've made many tests:

    PARIS vs AMSTERDAM
    
    Vienna 22 ms vs 19 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Brussels 7 ms vs 4 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Sofia 40 ms vs 37 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Montreal 79 ms vs 80 ms (Paris wins)
    Toronto 92 ms vs 87 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Zurich 15 ms vs 18 ms (Paris wins)
    Berlin 22 ms vs 13 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Duesseldorf 13 ms vs 4 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Frankfurt 10 ms vs 7 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Hamburg 18 ms vs 9 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Munich 16 ms vs 13 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Nuremberg 17 ms vs 15 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Copenhagen 24 ms vs 15 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Tallinn 42 ms vs 33 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Barcelona 19 ms vs 28 ms (Paris wins)
    Madrid 18 ms vs 26 ms (Paris wins)
    Valencia 23 ms vs 32 ms (Paris wins)
    Bordeaux 9 ms vs 18 ms (Paris wins)
    Marseille 12 ms vs 20 ms (Paris wins)
    Paris 1 ms vs 9 ms (Paris wins)
    London 8 ms vs 8 ms (no winner)
    Southport 15 ms vs 10 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Athens 52 ms vs 48 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Budapest 30 ms vs 29 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Dublin 18 ms vs 17 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Milan 20 ms vs 22 ms (Paris wins)
    Rome 24 ms vs 33 ms (Paris wins)
    Tokyo 235 ms vs 239 ms (Paris wins)
    Mexico City 123 ms vs 129 Ms (Paris wins)
    Amsterdam 10 ms vs 1 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Oslo 34 ms vs 25 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Warsaw 31 ms vs 22 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Lisbon 32 ms vs 40 ms (Paris wins)
    Bucharest 49 ms vs 51 ms (Paris wins)
    Stockholm 40 ms vs 31 ms (Amsterdam wins)
    Bratislava 23 ms vs 23 ms (no winner)
    Kharkiv 50 ms vs 50 ms (no winner)
    Atlanta 89 ms vs 93 ms (Paris wins)
    Boston 70 ms vs 70 ms (no winner)
    Chicago 93 ms vs 97 ms (Paris wins)
    Dallas 108 ms vs 119 ms (Paris wins)
    Denver 115 ms vs 120 ms (Paris wins)
    Houston 104 ms vs 111 ms (Paris wins)
    Jacksonville 99 ms vs 102 ms (Paris wins)
    Kansas City 105 ms vs 109 ms (Paris wins)
    Los Angeles 139 ms vs 146 (Paris wins)
    Miami 103 ms vs 112 ms (Paris wins)
    Minneapolis 108 ms vs 113 (Paris wins)
    New York 75 ms vs 75 ms (no winner)
    Orlando 99 ms vs 106 ms (Paris wins)
    Philadelphia 74 ms vs 82 ms (Paris wins)
    Sacramento 139 ms vs 144 ms (Paris wins)
    San Diego 135 ms vs 144 ms (Paris wins)
    San Francisco 143 ms vs 146 ms (Paris wins)
    San Jose 143 ms vs 147 ms (Paris wins)
    Seattle 147 ms vs 152 ms (Paris wins)
    Tampa 104 ms vs 112 ms (Paris wins)
    Washington, DC 78 ms vs 83 ms (Paris wins)
    
    Thanked by 1ManofServer
  • joerijoeri Member, Host Rep, LIR

    Global Liberty want that Online.net pays for the good routing :-(

  • kbfrkbfr Member

    @joeri said:
    Global Liberty want that Online.net pays for the good routing :-(

    Is that a surprise?

    Thanked by 1cassa
  • OVH has multiple 100G peerings with Liberty Global, I wonder what they are paying.

  • Finally get the +2 Gbit/sec network speed:

    **> speed
    --2016-08-03 23:52:49-- http://cachefly.cachefly.net/100mb.test
    Resolving cachefly.cachefly.net (cachefly.cachefly.net)... 62.210.187.96
    Connecting to cachefly.cachefly.net (cachefly.cachefly.net)|62.210.187.96|:80... connected.
    HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
    Length: 104857600 (100M) [application/octet-stream]
    Saving to: ‘/dev/null’

    /dev/null 100%[=========================================================>] 100.00M 95.3MB/s in 1.0s

    2016-08-03 23:52:51 (95.3 MB/s) - ‘/dev/null’ saved [104857600/104857600]

    sleep 5sec
    --2016-08-03 23:52:56-- http://speedtest.tele2.net/10GB.zip
    Resolving speedtest.tele2.net (speedtest.tele2.net)... 90.130.70.73, 2a00:800:1010::1
    Connecting to speedtest.tele2.net (speedtest.tele2.net)|90.130.70.73|:80... connected.
    HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
    Length: 10737418240 (10G) [application/zip]
    Saving to: ‘/dev/null’

    /dev/null 100%[=========================================================>] 10.00G 281MB/s in 38s

    2016-08-03 23:53:33 (271 MB/s) - ‘/dev/null’ saved [10737418240/10737418240]

    sleep 15sec
    --2016-08-03 23:53:48-- http://speedtest.tele2.net/1GB.zip
    Resolving speedtest.tele2.net (speedtest.tele2.net)... 90.130.70.73, 2a00:800:1010::1
    Connecting to speedtest.tele2.net (speedtest.tele2.net)|90.130.70.73|:80... connected.
    HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
    Length: 1073741824 (1.0G) [application/zip]
    Saving to: ‘/dev/null’

    /dev/null 100%[=========================================================>] 1.00G 281MB/s in 4.1s

    2016-08-03 23:53:53 (251 MB/s) - ‘/dev/null’ saved [1073741824/1073741824]**

  • 271 MB/s = 2.117 Gbit/sec

  • lusirhelusirhe Member
    edited August 2016

    This is my XC 1TB Sata AMS1 @16euro/month with a bit of tweaks and tuning:

    http://i.imgur.com/xFlxBVF.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/5Hrh2OJ.jpg

    I'm more than impressed.

    1 10.0.0.1 (10.0.0.1) 4.368 ms 3.585 ms 3.692 ms

    2 * * *
    3 br01.bucuresti.rdsnet.ro (213.154.124.94) 4.553 ms * 4.782 ms
    4 bpt-b4-link.telia.net (213.248.83.189) 13.898 ms buca-b1-link.telia.net (213.248.83.169) 25.238 ms bpt-b4-link.telia.net (213.248.83.189) 15.940 ms
    5 win-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.246.154) 30.687 ms prag-bb1-link.telia.net (80.91.250.70) 21.415 ms win-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.80) 29.397 ms
    6 ffm-bb4-link.telia.net (62.115.139.217) 42.690 ms ffm-bb4-link.telia.net (62.115.136.62) 45.081 ms ffm-bb3-link.telia.net (62.115.134.216) 36.338 ms
    7 ffm-b12-link.telia.net (62.115.142.41) 40.203 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (62.115.142.9) 36.984 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (62.115.141.227) 45.519 ms
    8 be100.agr21.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.14.89) 36.024 ms 36.046 ms 35.981 ms
    9 be2184.ccr41.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.48.70) 38.265 ms be2188.ccr42.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.48.114) 38.141 ms be2184.ccr41.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.48.70) 31.722 ms
    10 be2814.ccr42.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.141) 46.414 ms be2813.ccr41.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.121) 41.803 ms be2814.ccr42.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.141) 47.410 ms
    11 be2287.ccr21.ams06.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.60.174) 41.265 ms be2298.ccr21.ams06.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.60.178) 43.430 ms be2287.ccr21.ams06.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.60.174) 43.288 ms
    12 online.demarc.cogentco.com (149.6.0.90) 49.163 ms 44.738 ms 45.816 ms
    13 195.154.1.185 (195.154.1.185) 40.495 ms 43.066 ms 44.861 ms
    14 163-172-211-101.rev.poneytelecom.eu (163.172.211.101) 44.266 ms 45.944 ms 52.807 ms

    Thanked by 1mtsbatalha
  • Hello guys,

    Someone can post the I/O output for XC SATA AMS 2016?

  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited August 2016

    @lusirhe said
    This is my XC 1TB Sata AMS1 @16euro/month with a bit of tweaks and tuning:

    http://i.imgur.com/xFlxBVF.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/5Hrh2OJ.jpg

    You know it isn't very smart to post pictures showing you downloading illegally, copyrighted content, to your server here, right?

    Also, I would be more impressed if it weren't going over Cogent. Looks like they have a lot of Cogent in their mix outside of local peering at IX. Would be more impressed to see some actual good routes in the mix like Level 3, XO, Gtt, etc.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran

    TheLinuxBug said: downloading illegally copyrighted content

    Wot.

    And no, nobody cares, not even Online.net unless they get abuse report. And then there are procedures for handling the abuse (gets passed to customer who has time to respond, i.e. stop downloading). But you can post whatever you like on forums, that doesn't affect anything one little bit.

  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited August 2016

    rm_ said: Wot.

    And no, nobody cares, not even Online.net unless they get abuse report. And then there are procedures for handling the abuse (gets passed to customer who has time to respond, i.e. stop downloading). But you can post whatever you like on forums, that doesn't affect anything one little bit.

    Sure, if you say so? Not sure when this became the place where it was socially acceptable to discuss breaking the law in the open. I mean I know many have alluded to it over time, but I don't think it should be an acceptable practice to promote usage of servers from LET / it's vendors for illegal uses and we surely don't need people advertising it here. If you want to do that, go over to hack forums or somewhere else where that is openly acceptable.

    It has been an unwritten rule here for a long time that you just don't do that here. I guess now that popularity of the forum has gone down, we just throw our morals and ethics out with the bath water?

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

    Thanked by 2JasperNL Lee
  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited August 2016

    TheLinuxBug said: socially acceptable to discuss breaking the law

    I am sad for you if you have been so brainwashed that legal or illegal have completely replaced the categories of right or wrong in your mind. Whatever fascist copyright laws that your country currently has for protecting the multi-billionaire "entertainment industry" magnates mafia cartel, they are not always in general public's best interests, you know? Downloading some media for personal consumption is not always wrong, and perhaps in some jurisdictions luckily not even illegal.

    Thanked by 2Frecyboy Lunar
  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited August 2016

    rm_ said: I am sad for you if you have been so brainwashed that legal or illegal have completely replaced the categories of right or wrong in your mind. Whatever fascist copyright laws that your country currently has for protecting the multi-billionaire "entertainment industry" magnates mafia cartel, they are not always in general public's best interests, you know? Downloading some media for personal consumption is not always wrong, and perhaps in some jurisdictions luckily not even illegal.

    Has nothing to do with being brainwashed or even my personal beliefs on the legality of such, it simply has to do with keeping conversations here on a moral/ethical ground as this is a place of business for companies in many different jurisdictions, including those located in the US where these laws do currently exist. Just because you do or it may be legal where you are, doesn't mean you should promote others to do the same or to use services sold on this site for things which are technically against 90% of the hosts AUP/TOS.

    If you continue down this path, it is a slippery slope and soon we might as well just start allowing threads on carding, hacking, cracking, phracking, and other such illegal activities that can also be done from VPS/dedicated servers? I know you will say I am silly, but when the reader here is quickly becoming younger and younger (teenagers in school), I don't see these as morally/ethically acceptable things to promote on a forum like this.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

    Thanked by 2Lee JasperNL
  • @lusirhe said:
    This is my XC 1TB Sata AMS1 @16euro/month with a bit of tweaks and tuning:

    http://i.imgur.com/xFlxBVF.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/5Hrh2OJ.jpg

    I'm more than impressed.

    1 10.0.0.1 (10.0.0.1) 4.368 ms 3.585 ms 3.692 ms

    2 * * *
    3 br01.bucuresti.rdsnet.ro (213.154.124.94) 4.553 ms * 4.782 ms
    4 bpt-b4-link.telia.net (213.248.83.189) 13.898 ms buca-b1-link.telia.net (213.248.83.169) 25.238 ms bpt-b4-link.telia.net (213.248.83.189) 15.940 ms
    5 win-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.246.154) 30.687 ms prag-bb1-link.telia.net (80.91.250.70) 21.415 ms win-bb2-link.telia.net (80.91.247.80) 29.397 ms
    6 ffm-bb4-link.telia.net (62.115.139.217) 42.690 ms ffm-bb4-link.telia.net (62.115.136.62) 45.081 ms ffm-bb3-link.telia.net (62.115.134.216) 36.338 ms
    7 ffm-b12-link.telia.net (62.115.142.41) 40.203 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (62.115.142.9) 36.984 ms ffm-b12-link.telia.net (62.115.141.227) 45.519 ms
    8 be100.agr21.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.14.89) 36.024 ms 36.046 ms 35.981 ms
    9 be2184.ccr41.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.48.70) 38.265 ms be2188.ccr42.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.48.114) 38.141 ms be2184.ccr41.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.48.70) 31.722 ms
    10 be2814.ccr42.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.141) 46.414 ms be2813.ccr41.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.121) 41.803 ms be2814.ccr42.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.141) 47.410 ms
    11 be2287.ccr21.ams06.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.60.174) 41.265 ms be2298.ccr21.ams06.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.60.178) 43.430 ms be2287.ccr21.ams06.atlas.cogentco.com (154.54.60.174) 43.288 ms
    12 online.demarc.cogentco.com (149.6.0.90) 49.163 ms 44.738 ms 45.816 ms
    13 195.154.1.185 (195.154.1.185) 40.495 ms 43.066 ms 44.861 ms
    14 163-172-211-101.rev.poneytelecom.eu (163.172.211.101) 44.266 ms 45.944 ms 52.807 ms

    Wow, these are nice results! Mind sharing the tweaks/tuning if possible?

    Thanks!

  • lusirhelusirhe Member
    edited August 2016

    @TheLinuxBug said:

    rm_ said: I am sad for you if you have been so brainwashed that legal or illegal have completely replaced the categories of right or wrong in your mind. Whatever fascist copyright laws that your country currently has for protecting the multi-billionaire "entertainment industry" magnates mafia cartel, they are not always in general public's best interests, you know? Downloading some media for personal consumption is not always wrong, and perhaps in some jurisdictions luckily not even illegal.

    Has nothing to do with being brainwashed or even my personal beliefs on the legality of such, it simply has to do with keeping conversations here on a moral/ethical ground as this is a place of business for companies in many different jurisdictions, including those located in the US where these laws do currently exist. Just because you do or it may be legal where you are, doesn't mean you should promote others to do the same or to use services sold on this site for things which are technically against 90% of the hosts AUP/TOS.

    If you continue down this path, it is a slippery slope and soon we might as well just start allowing threads on carding, hacking, cracking, phracking, and other such illegal activities that can also be done from VPS/dedicated servers? I know you will say I am silly, but when the reader here is quickly becoming younger and younger (teenagers in school), I don't see these as morally/ethically acceptable things to promote on a forum like this.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

    Dude, sorry if my pics offended you.
    I'm sure nobody here knows about private torrenting, plex and stuff.
    My bad.

    Joke aside, I did not promote anything. I just benched my server using private torrents. Not that it matters, but I do live in a country with very permissive laws about torrenting (as long as you use it for yourself, not distributing), and most importantly, this has nothing to do with carding or hacking. You're way outta line here.

    Wow, these are nice results! Mind sharing the tweaks/tuning if possible?

    I did pay for this service, I do not know how to do it myself really.
    It's something about compiling deluge dev 1.3.13 from source, some ltconfig tweaks, together with editing values in interfaces, sysctl.conf, rc.local, etc.
    Sorry I can't help you more here.

    If you want I can recommend you the sysadmin guru that helped (actually it's a linux girl lol) and she can tweak any box for you. (as long as it's worth tweaking).
    Also here are some links that may help you:

    https://fasterdata.es.net/host-tuning/linux/

    https://calomel.org/network_performance.html

    Thanked by 1TheLinuxBug
  • lusirhelusirhe Member
    edited August 2016

    @mtsbatalha said:
    Hello guys,

    Someone can post the I/O output for XC SATA AMS 2016?

    System Info
    -----------
    Processor       : Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU  C2750  @ 2.40GHz
    CPU Cores       : 8
    Frequency       : 2394.002 MHz
    Memory          : 16010 MB
    Swap            :  MB
    Uptime          : 21:25,
    
    OS              : Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS
    Arch            : x86_64 (64 Bit)
    Kernel          : 4.4.0-31-generic
    Hostname        : daccorum
    
    
    Speedtest (IPv4 only)
    ---------------------
    Your public IPv4 is 
    
    Location                Provider        Speed
    CDN                     Cachefly        101.4MB/s
    
    Atlanta, GA, US         Coloat          8.95MB/s
    Dallas, TX, US          Softlayer       12.9MB/s
    Seattle, WA, US         Softlayer       10.3MB/s
    San Jose, CA, US        Softlayer       10.2MB/s
    Washington, DC, US      Softlayer       18.5MB/s
    Washington, DC, US      Leaseweb        13.2MB/s
    San Francisco, CA, US   Leaseweb        8.47MB/s
    
    Tokyo, Japan            Linode          5.33MB/s
    Hong Kong, China        Leaseweb        5.99MB/s
    Singapore               Leaseweb        6.27MB/s
    Singapore               Softlayer       3.30MB/s
    
    Sydney, Australia       Vultr           4.03MB/s
    Rotterdam, Netherlands  id3.net         153MB/s
    Germany                 Leaseweb        104MB/s
    Haarlem, Netherlands    Leaseweb        242MB/s
    France                  OVH             121MB/s
    France                  Online.net      66.0MB/s
    Frankfurt, Germany      Hetzner         97.0MB/s
    
    
    Disk Speed
    ----------
    I/O (1st run)   : 149 MB/s
    I/O (2nd run)   : 142 MB/s
    I/O (3rd run)   : 149 MB/s
    Average I/O     : 146.667 MB/s
    
  • @lusirhe said:
    If you want I can recommend you the sysadmin guru that helped (actually it's a linux girl lol) and she can tweak any box for you. (as long as it's worth tweaking).

    Sure, can you give me the girl information? How much did you paid?

    Thanks!

  • @salakis said:
    This thread is another perfect proof of how terrible the peering of Liberty Global / UPC really is.

    Telefonica O2 Germany ADSL: ~38ms, 16 hops (also backhauled via Paris/Vitry-sur-Seine)

    Didn't test this server here - I can confirm sadly UPC has terrible routing alltough I usually get my DL/UL Speeds and have no outages at all.

  • mycosysmycosys Member
    edited August 2016

    @TheLinuxBug said:

    rm_ said: I am sad for you if you have been so brainwashed that legal or illegal have completely replaced the categories of right or wrong in your mind. Whatever fascist copyright laws that your country currently has for protecting the multi-billionaire "entertainment industry" magnates mafia cartel, they are not always in general public's best interests, you know? Downloading some media for personal consumption is not always wrong, and perhaps in some jurisdictions luckily not even illegal.

    Has nothing to do with being brainwashed or even my personal beliefs on the legality of such, it simply has to do with keeping conversations here on a moral/ethical ground as this is a place of business for companies in many different jurisdictions, including those located in the US where these laws do currently exist. Just because you do or it may be legal where you are, doesn't mean you should promote others to do the same or to use services sold on this site for things which are technically against 90% of the hosts AUP/TOS.

    If you continue down this path, it is a slippery slope and soon we might as well just start allowing threads on carding, hacking, cracking, phracking, and other such illegal activities that can also be done from VPS/dedicated servers? I know you will say I am silly, but when the reader here is quickly becoming younger and younger (teenagers in school), I don't see these as morally/ethically acceptable things to promote on a forum like this.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

    WTF are you smoking? There is a massive difference between illegal and criminal, allowing stuff that isnt criminal is VASTLY different to allowing crimes.

    Not to mention 'legal' has nothing to do with moral or ethical, and many see copyright as immoral or unethical in its current form. If you really had the linux bug you would know that.

    To put the relevance of illegal into perspective - me saying the word 'FUCK' here is technically a crime as it is passing obscenity over a carriage service. get a grip

    Thanked by 2rm_ Lunar
  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited August 2016

    mycosys said: WTF are you smoking? There is a massive difference between illegal and criminal, allowing stuff that isnt criminal is VASTLY different to allowing crimes.

    Not to mention 'legal' has nothing to do with moral or ethical, and many see copyright as immoral or unethical in its current form. If you really had the linux bug you would know that.

    To put the relevance of illegal into perspective - me saying the word 'FUCK' here is technically a crime as it is passing obscenity over a carriage service. get a grip

    I can tell you clearly did not read for comprehension and went into some rage induced coma and started typing. I clearly stated it has nothing to do with legality (or even how I personally feel about said legality) but the moral and ethical principles behind promoting something which is considered against business AUP/TOS in most situations and in some cases is illegal. Whether it is technically legal, your views on that legality or if it is illegal where you are, is irrelevant to the conversation here or my point.

    Now, your morals and ethics may vary, but it is also our responsibility as adults helping other young adults into this field to also show some restraint in what we promote and how. Unlike several years ago, the user base here is actually getting a lot younger as can be seen if you review on a daily basis the threads and subjects discussed here.

    If you want to download/distribute copyrighted content, that is up to you and how you want to handle it, but that doesn't mean it should be a promoted conversation here.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

  • @TheLinuxBug said:
    my 2 cents.

    Or to put it in another way - you feel it is our responsibility to enforce a moral code designed to entirely benefit its implementors, and any dissent is to be seen as immutably immoral.

    Im glad you arent reviewing Mahatma Ghandi, or Nelson Mandela or for that matter Lincoln or Washington for that matter.

    Philosophy and ethics are really not your strong suits are they?

    Oh - and the rage assumption is hilarious. My position is very well considered and long developed, and my feeling is sadness for you that you are so pathetically brainwashed and devoid of critical thought - how could i feel angry at you for that?

    Thanked by 1rm_
  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited August 2016

    mycosys said: Or to put it in another way - you feel it is our responsibility to enforce a moral code designed to entirely benefit its implementors, and any dissent is to be seen as immutably immoral.

    Im glad you arent reviewing Mahatma Ghandi, or Nelson Mandela or for that matter Lincoln or Washington for that matter.

    Philosophy and ethics are really not your strong suits are they?

    Oh - and the rage assumption is hilarious. My position is very well considered and long developed, and my feeling is sadness for you that you are so pathetically brainwashed and devoid of critical thought - how could i feel angry at you for that?

    Or more like until this place started going to shit this was a general rule here, recently it seems staff doesn't feel like enforcing said rules which were previously in place here. That is the mods/admins choice, but the fact you are acting like this is something new, to me, means you are also new here and are unaware of this fact. The fact you feel no shame or responsibility in telling our next generation that doing immoral things is alright tells me a lot about your character as a person and obviously we don't see eye to eye on this.

    I will repeat once again, just because I feel we should keep discussions here morally/ethically above board does not actually dictate my personal beliefs on the issue (this is now the 3rd time I have said this and I would welcome you to stop making assumptions on my behalf). Maybe I am just old enough to actually see there is a difference and place value on such things where as the life you were brought up in didn't teach you any better. You can keep your sadness, sounds like you may need it more than me.

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

  • @TheLinuxBug said:
    The fact you feel no shame or responsibility in telling our next generation that doing immoral things is alright tells me a lot about your character as a person and obviously we don't see eye to eye on this.

    Just how thick are you? Can you not get the idea that illegal is not the same as immoral? Copyright was instituted to protect owners of early printing presses to facilitate their production. They were extremely expensive and very few people had the means to distribute information so their success was critical. We now live in an age where the means of distribution is in arms reach of every person in the first world - these laws are no longer advancing us as a civilisation, they are actively holding back our progress.

    Civil disobedience is NOT immoral. Wake up!

    I will repeat once again, just because I feel we should keep discussions here morally/ethically above board does not actually dictate my personal beliefs on the issue (this is now the 3rd time I have said this and I would welcome you to stop making assumptions on my behalf). Maybe I am just old enough to actually see there is a difference and place value on such things where as the life you were brought up in didn't teach you any better. You can keep your sadness, sounds like you may need it more than me.

    Maybe i am just old enough to have used punch cards - and know captain crunch.

    my 2 cents.

    you may want to consider a discount

    Thanked by 1rm_
  • @mycosys said:

    @TheLinuxBug said:
    my 2 cents.

    Or to put it in another way - you feel it is our responsibility to enforce a moral code designed to entirely benefit its implementors, and any dissent is to be seen as immutably immoral.

    Well, there is that old rule-of-thumb litmus test for ethical:

    "If everyone executed the course of action you're contemplating/advocating, would the world go to shit? "

    As a person who produces very little content, it is easy for me to rationalize about not respecting copyright,because it is in my short-term interest.

    I think, perhaps only in a world where, everyone is a prolific creator, and holds copyrights on work, would we all see eye-to-eye, on the ethics of respecting copyright, and mass re-distribution without author permission.

    Yes, I understand that in reality, the real content creators actually see only a small percentage of revenues from their creations.

    (apologies for long winding sentences. Not a wordsmith. )

    Thanked by 1TheLinuxBug
  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited August 2016

    Lets try this one last time. If you read the AUP/TOS of MOST providers (not all) they SPECIFICALLY outline the fact they do not allow you to use their services for the download/distribution of copyrighted content. Go read, I will wait.

    Okay, so by this being against the rules at most hosts and us going around and saying "Even though these rules exist, fuck the rules, who needs rules... just do whatever you want" when someone comes back here butt hurt because their server is canceled because they followed your suggestion, are you gonna be the one here to help them or will you just be another asshat that goes, "Ohh you shouldn't have done that, too bad, now go cry in a corner!"? (Like people usually do when people complain and then say they used the server for something against the terms and got kicked out).

    For the final time I will say this cause you are obviously thick your self: THIS DOES NOT REFLECT MY PERSONAL BELIEFS SURROUNDING COPYRIGHT. I am simply saying we should not promote people to use services which dictate these things are against their AUP/TOS to go right ahead and do whatever they want.

    So, after you promote these people to go and do this and they come back here and start complaining because they do get caught or something happens, are you also going to pay their lawyer fees for them (obviously an extreme example, but to make a point)? Are you willing to be a conspirator in their case and take on responsibilities for their actions? I am not, so again, the best way to go about that is to not promote such things here. As I said when I started, there are already forums out there which lack these morals/ethics outright, so if you wish to discuss these things you are always welcome to go there.

    Just to circle us back around, the T&S for online.net actually say in them:

    Within the scope of the Charter of Commitments for developing an offer of legal online music,

    consideration of intellectual property and action on digital piracy signed on July 28 2004, note
    that the illegal exchange of recordings and protected works over the Internet as well as piracy
    are detrimental to artistic creation.
    As a result, should the User breach current legislation, and notably laws concerning
    consideration of intellectual and artistic property, the User may be held responsible and it
    undertakes to protect ONLINE from any action brought about by a third party.

    So, by telling people to use Online.net server to download and distribute copyrighted works is not a morally correct thing to do, as their terms explicitly state they do not allow this and if they find reason to believe this is what your use is, you will be held accountable.

    We all know you can get away with it, but my point (from the start of this) was that we should not be telling people to use services which are not allowed by terms of service on their servers. If you can't understand this, then you are the one being thick headed and I give up, because it's obviously a waste of time to communicate with you.

    Cheers!

  • @TheLinuxBug said:
    Lets try this one last time. If you read the AUP/TOS of MOST providers (not all) they SPECIFICALLY outline the fact they do not allow you to use their services for the download/distribution of copyrighted content. Go read, I will wait.

    Just to circle us back around, the T&S for online.net actually say in them:

    Within the scope of the Charter of Commitments for developing an offer of legal online music,

    consideration of intellectual property and action on digital piracy signed on July 28 2004, note
    that the illegal exchange of recordings and protected works over the Internet as well as piracy
    are detrimental to artistic creation.
    As a result, should the User breach current legislation, and notably laws concerning
    consideration of intellectual and artistic property, the User may be held responsible and it
    undertakes to protect ONLINE from any action brought about by a third party.

    So, by telling people to use Online.net server to download and distribute copyrighted works is not a morally correct thing to do, as their terms explicitly state they do not allow this and if they find reason to believe this is what your use is, you will be held accountable.

    You really need to learn to read - what that says is that online.net will not be held responsible for your actions - nothing else.
    There have been many ridiculous terms of service over the years, many of them ruled illegal. It is not our place to decide what is moral or legal for others, in many cultures, and then to ENFORCE THIS CODE ON THEM, and to tell them not only to obey but obey unthinkingly and without discussion.
    If they dont read the TOS they are morons, if they dont follow them deliberately THEY are responsible for that.

    I note you have yet to respond to the comparisons to Mandela, Ghandi or Washinton, persons called TERRORISTS in their time. Should the world have ignored their acts because they were illegal, inconvenient, un-businesslike?

    I also see no relevance between the actions of others and the personal ethics of providers.

    But you seem utterly unable to think, so the discussion is indeed wasted.

    Thanked by 1rm_
  • @vimalware said:

    @mycosys said:

    @TheLinuxBug said:
    my 2 cents.

    Or to put it in another way - you feel it is our responsibility to enforce a moral code designed to entirely benefit its implementors, and any dissent is to be seen as immutably immoral.

    Well, there is that old rule-of-thumb litmus test for ethical:

    "If everyone executed the course of action you're contemplating/advocating, would the world go to shit? "

    As a person who produces very little content, it is easy for me to rationalize about not respecting copyright,because it is in my short-term interest.

    I think, perhaps only in a world where, everyone is a prolific creator, and holds copyrights on work, would we all see eye-to-eye, on the ethics of respecting copyright, and mass re-distribution without author permission.

    Yes, I understand that in reality, the real content creators actually see only a small percentage of revenues from their creations.

    (apologies for long winding sentences. Not a wordsmith. )

    If copyright were destroyed the vast majority of content creators would make MORE money - we would no longer have the vultures of the media companies sucking them dry and contributing nothing.

    MANY artists are making a far better living off copyleft than they ever would off traditional models - people love their work so purchase collectables and print editions etc directly from them. If you do good work people are proud to support you. Look at bandcamp, look at soundcloud, look at the blogospere - creation is intrinsic to us. Without the marketing machine we might even start to value good music over good looks, content over butt size.

    I have been in the music industry most of my life - i know first hand that the copyright machine is destroying content creation, not enhancing it. I contibuted thousands of hours over years to running a new media collective to facilitate uptake o digital media in the community. I have run large fringe festivals. One look at how new or innovative content creators now approach monetisation of their content tells you quickly that copyright is not helping anyone but fatcats.

    Thanked by 2rm_ vimalware
  • Well this thread went sour

    Thanked by 2sin ehab
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