New on LowEndTalk? Please Register and read our Community Rules.
All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.
All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.
Would you send an invoice to a client if their VPS box was suspended for 'Abuse'?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
So your asking them to do alot of extra work for something that was your fault.
The systems are designed to be automated and streamlined, if you no longer wanted the VPS or to work with them around the suspension then you should have cancelled.
No company is going to create plugins and lots of rules for every circumstance that may happen to their products. It's how WHMCS and most other billing panels would handle it.
Just because your suspended your still using resources on their system, you would soon complain if they terminated your suspended VM at the end of the billing period even though was due for renewal if you had files you wished to retrieve.
They shouldn't have to host your files/VM for free.
Suspended means that your VPS is still using storage resources at minimum. It will also require support resources to restore it. Thus, an invoice is reasonable.
I believe that the VPS provider should notify a customer immediately when a VPS is suspended. The notification should include a description of why the VPS was suspended. The description should include enough detail so that the VPS customer can fix the issue once the customer regains access to the VPS. The notification should include a detailed description of the process to get a suspended VPS restored and what will happen if the VPS customer fails to rectify the situation or the VPS repeats its previous bad behavior.
The VPS provider also has an obligation to restore service quickly as soon as the customer initiates the restoration process with the provider. After all, the customer is paying for a VPS, not a suspended VPS.
There are lots of corner cases that you can conceive, related to different ToS and AUP documents at VPS providers. Extra fees and minimum termination notices are two examples.
No extra work is needed. That email will be sent out just like how the invoice is 'automatically sent out'. It's just a different type of email to check up on the customer to see if they want to get their VPS unsuspended before invoicing them. I don't see anything wrong with that?
Well, that's the company's fault then and 1 fault of WHMCS then. It doesn't excuse the disrespectful behavior of sending an invoice to someone who has a suspended VPS though, you have to agree with me on that. I think a customer awareness email that is similar to the invoice generated email would be ideal. " We're just wondering if you want your VPS service to be unsuspended before yor next invoice, please submit a support ticket ."
Some automatic email like that would be ideal imo instead of just sending an invoice to a client with a suspended VPS. I always thought and still do, that invoices are sent when the provider has a sense of confidence that the client will actually pay it. That's just my upbringing though, and ofcourse others will have different views which are OK, but I just havn't heard of a good reason why yet. WHMCS is irrelevant, as the provider has sole control over everything.
Nah, I wouldn't complain but I would 99% more likely pay that invoice if they actually showed that they cared about a customer instead of just sending 'an invoice automatically' in hopes of you to pay.
@dillybob
This is what you agreed to.
7.1 Suspension - At the sole option of ChicagoVPS for any reason set forth herein or in the event that you breach any term of this agreement including but not limited to Section 1 (Payment of Fees) or any violation of the ChicagoVPS Acceptable Use Policy, ChicagoVPS may suspend your account by deactivating any access by you and by web users to any information contained on the ChicagoVPS servers related to your account while maintaining the information and data related to your account upon the ChicagoVPS servers. Suspension shall specifically include the disabling of your hosted domain and any access to information or data related to your account. In the event of any such suspension you will be notified. At the option of ChicagoVPS you may be given an opportunity to correct such breach or violation. Upon being notified of an opportunity to correct such breach or violation, if such breach or violation is not corrected the account may be terminated under paragraph 7.3.
7.2. Service charges will continue to accrue on suspended accounts as if they were not suspended. You will remain responsible for the payment of any such charges during any such period of suspension.
@Lee that is irrelevant. This is a general business question that's not relevant to CVPS, or any type of specific hosting provider or their AUP/TOS. Maybe I should of posted this at the WHMCS forums :P.
Yes, there probably are. But 9 of 10 providers don't use it.
@Dillybob, I suppose it's because the system chooses the lesser of two evils. The system terminates you if you ask it to, or the provider "terminates" you for abuse.
To give you an analogy.. If you get caught cheating in an exam, you're called to the principal's office, and may be "suspended" from school for a while. If you're a repeat offender, or perform a grave offense like a criminal offense, the school makes you pack up your stuff and leave-they terminate you. Suspension for abuses is like a rap on the knuckles-you're let off, or allowed to continue if you apologise or explain. A termination is a graver punishment. There's a significant difference.
Your invoices keep getting generated unless you make a request for canceling your account, or the provider decides to, for a repeat offender.
I am just being clear that this topic is driven by you abusing a service at CVPS. It's not as general as you are making out.
Well maybe you should produce such a plugin for WHMCS instead of testing sending DDOS to someone's network. And then moaning that is "disrespectful behavior" for there automated cron job dare thinking about sending you an invice for a service you ordered and agreeded to.
Also, I think the term 'invoice' has lost it's true meaning within the web hosting industry because it's so saturated and used so often. We must go back to original definition and let's not forget:
Cite
Notice the bold.
Demand for a payment, but, when a VPS is suspended and you don't have working service with that provider? That's apples to oranges folks and doesn't make any sense.
A good analogy would be: You're a Web Designer and you're making a website for a client. You send your client an invoice of $1,512.32 cents. Your client has an option to pay that invoice or ask you what the Website will look like. You tell your client that he must pay the invoice FIRST before he shows him the design and layout. The client says.. 'Hmm, why is he sending me an invoice when I don't even get to see what the site looks like yet'. Same logic here, why send me an invoice when I don't have an active service or product available?
Hope this helps shed some light on my viewpoint.
It may be a TOS violation, but testing a filter by sending packets from a single router hardly qualifies as Distributed Denial of service.
@Dillybob Offtopic: did you edit your OP and removed some key info like "you are the client with CVPS?" Nothing wrong with that but I'm kinda confused and would like to straighten my thoughts.
For your invoice demand payment thingie, no. You paid your last invoice, you can choose to cancel and leave during that period of time. And an invoice is different than a contract, a contract is when both parties agree on one thing in this case a billing cycle of service for a billing cycle of money. You can request for a service and the provider's response is to send you an invoice and you pay that you get service. Same thing here, the first day you requested service and the provider sent you an invoice and until you send them a cancel/terminate message, they can and will assume you want to continue. Yes your service is suspended, but not cancelled and if you contact your host to sort out whatever the problem is you can/will have your service back. You don't need to cite all those sources, this aint English class. Just use your brain and think about the simple logics. We have told you what you asked for.
It was more the fact he thought them sending an invoice was "disrespectful behavior", yes I agree its far from DDOS but still something you don't just do.
No, you're an idiot. That is the real story here.
And that is your opinion, I don't view that about you though. I just think you have a distorted view on customer relationship management.
You edit your posts so much I am beginning to think you are really cd/home over at WHT.
I wonder how you're privy to this information. Insider contact at CVPS?
Your profile picture definitely suits you.
It was quoted on Google Chat from the same post over at VPSBoard when he said it was CVPS.
https://vpsboard.com/topic/7252-if-a-clients-vps-is-suspended-do-you-still-send-them-an-invoice-for-next-month/#entry95646
Whether the question is about CVPS is irrelevant.. I already said that. No where in this thread did I say that it WASN'T from CVPS. It's just you're trying to steer away into ad-hominen attacks against me for no reason whatsoever. The hosting company / what I did to the box is really irrelevant to the question at hand and about invoicing.
First off, thanks for not be-littering me like Lee and actually responding critically.
The problem is, an invoice should not be 'generated automatically, until a client cancels their service', especially when their service does not work! I don't want to be disrespectful, but that's like saying Virgin Mobile will continue to send me an invoice or bill me for my phone bill when my phone service does not work.. That's not okay.
Your exam/student analogy is good and I agree with it, but, I'm not questioning how or why they suspended me in the first place. If anything, I deserved it since I DOS's the VPS with udp flooding. My issue is just in general, why would they send an invoice or want me back on their network when they know it was suspended for abuse, that just doesn't make any sense to me.
You would think they would not want someone returning who abuses the system? That goes with your exam analogy, if a student keeps cheating at every high school he goes to.. what other high-school will want him?
It IS demand for payment. You pay, your service continues to the next term and re-activated as soon as you fix the abuse issue. You don't pay, service terminated, data deleted.
You don't need to see the product FIRST. VPS are generally the same, only differing on allocated resources, which have been detailed on product/page. Also, this is about suspension, not activation of service. You actually HAVE seen the product, and even ran some tests on it. Your analogy may be more suitable to asking a VPS trial before ordering and making payment, which most provider do not do as it is prone to abuse. Oh, and some online designer do ask for payment FIRST before showing his work as some nasty clients might just steal the idea without paying.
The provider has an established system, YOU must follow it, while they do not have obligation to modify their working workflow to suit you. Your service is suspended while running tests, I would say you are not going to renew the service. So just submit cancellation request and invoice would also be cancelled. Move on and find another provider that works for you, has a system that suits your needs. Why making such a fuss? You're just pissed and want to win some points over the provider, only you do not.
However if you didn't pay for your monthly bill they would continue to bill you each month till your contract was up. And normally suspend your service once you have failed to pay after 30 days, however they will still charge you what you agrreded to when signing up each month increasing your debt, and if you then failed to pay the full amount left on your conrract pass it to a debt agency, all while your service being suspended.
One thing your service not working because of a service issue, another thing you causing abuse and having it temproarly suspended.
Nope. You have a distorted view of the definition of an invoice then.
Re-read my post on the first-page: http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/1126884/#Comment_1126884
'an invoice serves as a demand for payment'
How can they make a demand for payment when the customer has a suspended, not working service?
More babble. Their policies, AUP is all irrelevant in whether or not it's okay to send an invoice on a suspended client's VPS. They can do whatever they want, and I don't question that. I question WHY it would be okay and I still haven't heard a good reason. You don't invoice a customer when they have a service that is NOT working. That's just basic business etiquette is it not?
When you sign up for a VPS, you know damn well what you're getting. You cannot compare that to a client that wants to know what his website will 'look' like. Apples to oranges comparison.
Abuse is a blanket term for a variety of activities. The system that most providers use, WHMCS doesn't categorize abuses according to their severity. The usual suspension for abuse happens automatically. Suspension is just keeping your account dormant, until you decide to reactivate it.
If you were a repeat offender at one company, you would've been terminated. If you were a repeat offender at hosting companies, they would report you for fraud, and your future orders would get cancelled automatically at multiple providers. As it is, your suspension for the network abuse is just a TOS violation. It's not so grave as yet to warrant your expulsion as a customer.
You're really desperate for recognition, aren't you?
It depends. Did the abuse stop before the invoice was sent or was it ongoing?
If it stops, the invoice should be sent; whereas if the abuse is ongoing, I'd nonetheless just terminate the account.
There have been more than a handful of good reasons provided. They've made sense to everyone in this thread, except yourself. At this point, I can only think of you as a troll. So I will answer with my victory argument:
Of what? My non-monetized youtube video with slurred speech exposing WHT? :P I'm genuinely curious about this question.
Oh yeah, the abuse stopped once they suspended and the VPS was offline for 2 weeks at least, then I just got an invoice 2 days ago, which just seems very odd. (Again, not complaining about the suspension, I deserved it, just invoicing me seems odd and a red flag).
And I agree and this is. This is the the closest argument I can accept as why they would give me a opportunity back as a second chance perhaps? But, it still doesn't address the fact as why they sent the invoice over when I have no working service with them in the first-place? Why would they risk me back on their network when they know I was suspended for 'DOS'ing it', if you will.
..and you have not articulated one point to me but instead insist with ad-hominen attacks. Great arguments u have there.
The invoice was sent by an automated system which sends it to every customer in their database. If you weren't terminated, but only suspended, it considers you an existing active customer.
Is it a flawed system? Maybe. But it's one which actually gives you consideration as a customer. If you were terminated, you wouldn't receive an invoice. If all customers who were suspended were to be terminated, then a lot of less evil abuses would cause genuine customers to lose their data.
As an example, even an inbound DDoS is considered as a suspension-worthy abuse. Imagine losing your data because a provider decided to have an automatic system to terminate you citing abuse for inbound DDoS. If this was one of your secondary servers handling ftp or something likely to miss your attention, you'd lose your valuable data because the automated system decided to not send your invoice.
I suppose this is the logic behind WHMCS still sending you invoice even if you're suspended. I reiterate-a suspension is a nascent service with the potential for activation. The provider is still storing your data on his node, and hence is justified in charging you an invoice. If you were permanently terminated, there would be no generated invoices, but your data would have been wiped as well.
I agree on your first part, but not your second part. It's not 'consideration' to send a customer an invoice (demand of money) when their VPS is suspended. It's quite the opposite, it's disrespectful.
I do agree about it being a flawed system and am happy you at-least acknowledged that.
I disagree partially with this. MY VPS has been offline and allocates no data, rather than just the basic openVZ virtulization: 'container-based virtualization for Linux' itself. My node has been offline, and there is no OS installed, so the allocation that is being is used does not justify an invoice. Even if it did, that still doesn't excuse them of sending an invoice to a client that has a non-working service.
What if your phone company suspended your phone service for 1 month, then invoiced you for the next month, how would you feel? I mean, they still have your telephone number on their database right? Same exact logic here (in regards of data), it's negligible and unjustifiable for an invoice.