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Your points are valid and I never disputed them, only the fact that he did not really commit fraud. I would not wish to host someone which is not honest about many things, but if I do already due to my mistake or due to rules allowing it before, and the customer did not commit any abuse or fraud I would never report to FR, but at most terminate the service and recommend some people which can host anonymous customers. This way a lot of drama can be avoided, better for all parties involved.
In this case I smell revenge and this is one of the ways FR should not be used in, but I do understand the frustration to a point.
I sympathise with you OP, but can't you just cut your losses and use full on fake details next time? I mean, i'm sure we've all "missed off" crucial details in our information that we could complete if asked to, not that i'm accusing you of doing this.
Some of your points are interesting. The gist as I gather is that Yomura/Delimiter thinks it's too big an entity to have a representative on this forum. It also shares personal and confidential data it's privy to, to its parent company and its technicians.
As I understand, the customer signed up with invalid data while signing up for a service. The customer paid and used a couple of months of service. All through that time, Delimiter did not get any complaints/issues due to the service provided. Sometime through the contract, the company became aware of the invalid telephone number provided, and contacted the customer. The customer, mindful of his privacy, provided a work phone, which could not be verified. In addition, he changed the address to match the phone number.
Instead of terminating the customer immediately citing TOS and leaving it at that, Delimiter somehow seemed morally and ethically obliged to share the customer's confidential data with an unconcerned third party website. How lucky it was that the customer did not actually give valid data. Otherwise, that too might have ended up with whatever websites Delimiter/Yomura peddles data to.
The contact details of the company Delimiter VPS lists an address in 2 Lansdowne Row
London, W1J 6HL. If this is a UK based company, how come they don't adhere to the Data Protection Act 1998? The act gives an individual the right to deny use of his personal data with any third party. By extension, it also enforces adherence to the act by companies based in UK.
And what's with all the rigmarole about why the individual chose to insert a wrong phone number while signing up? Was there any actual fraud commited? If not, why's he being crucified?
Regardless of the alignment and biased opinion being articulated by some existing Delimiter customers and some well known hosts, as a prospective customer, it's troublesome that Delimiter does not care about lowend customers, shares confidential personal data with thrid party websites and does not have any concerns about creating a fraud record about a customer who signed up for their service and did not cause any harm whatsoever to it.
Round and round the cobbler's bench...
Not really, most people agree Delimiter over-reacted, some say it even broke the law and others say it was their right because the customer was combative.
I can understand all points and there is no black and white, but, while an individual might be excused for being in the wrong, in a company of a certain size, these things should not happen.
Delimiter, if thinks it is too good for the lowend customers, should not only avoid this place, but also increase prices two-folds and all troublesome customers will disappear, only real frauds will go because they are not paying with their money and do not provide their data anyway.
Besides, if they do not believe in the low-end market, why use FR and not send the police after the perpetrator directly? That is a way better revenge and will teach us all a lesson, while also showing piles of money can oil the state machine better than any small company which actually pays it's taxes.
I thought it was established that this wasn't about OP's concern over his privacy. He provided an incorrect address in the very beginning because, in his own words, he had forgotten to input the house number. It was an honest mistake. He didn't provide a phone number because, again in his own words, he does not own a phone. When they contacted him about the discrepancies, he changed the address to his work address instead of filling in the missing house number. They called that workplace and inquired about him, but was told no such employee existed. By then, OP was too frustrated to provide them with his real work phone number and asked for a refund (this again was in his own words, in response to a question I asked). Nowhere did he actually say he didn't want to provide them with his details because he was concerned about his privacy.
That was my assumption, considering he filled in a series of 0s instead of an actual number. If one really wanted to insert a fake number, how hard would it be to google a nearby establishment's site, and enter their phone number? His reason as to why he inserted a dummy number is beside the point. It would have been relevant, had Delimiter received a court or police directive with actual evidence/investigation of fraud.
The point that's moot is that the only thing the customer was 'guilty' of, is providing dummy data. Delimiter/Yomura is prima facie 'guilty' of disseminating confidential private data not only with technicians associated with its parent company (who have no legal right to access such confidential data), but also with a third party website that wasn't authorized with such access. I am very interested in Delimiter/Yomura's justification for their illegal activity, which quite apparently is a graver offence that what the customer did. Nowhere have I seen evidence brought forward by Delimiter regarding criminal activity by the customer. Where's the actual fraud?
I'm sure the big corporates that Delimiter and Yomura caters to, would be very interested to know that these companies aren't trustworthy of confidential data.
I don't get what the fuss is, Delimiter has been very strict and active on checking signup since the first day they introduce their 5 dollar a year atom(yes they drop their balls in OP's case), but I think most people do know what they are getting into when signing up. Especially most billing department(if they have a separate one) do not operate in weekend.
quote from their website:
Delimiter may have done a little bit too much and put the op on FR as some suggest, but guess what, they have the right to do it. There is a reason things like FR and maxmind exist, people entering shady/incorrect info because they think it is ok when you enter a binding contract. You don't like it? Go with another budget provider. Most host knows every time you need someone look up on an order because it has been trigger by fraud, it cost them time and money, who is going to pay for it?
I technically never had service with delimiter, it was during their launch of atom series and I was one of those who got stuck for a month after going thru their verification. I tried to ask mark for help he pointed me to an email in delimiter, 1-2 days later a lady called me telling me they have refunded my order as request(server not provisioned, I am moving to asia where delimiter's network was not optimal for my use).
Don't like mark who is not a delimiter employee trying to help by accessing data sent by delimiter staff because you throw a fit on the internet about how your shit doesn't work? work with delimiter, FR(in op's case) or find another provider. There is a decline of better tier host rep in let recently due to various reasons, being one of the most demanding crowd in this industry I wonder what will happen in the near future when everyone had 'enough'.
Worry about your privacy? use bitcoin, most host will not care about fake info because they are 'paid', or better yet get off the internet, cellphone and computer because you are being mined regardless.
Then all this fuss did not happen, they caught the 00000 phone number and denied service to the customer, so, what are we talking about here?
Wrong. Delimiter has no legal right to disseminate personal and confidential data. The laws of UK are quite explicit in denying any such right, unless the customer's legal right to confidentialty is waived by him. Does the contract entered upon by @alessio have any such explicit clause sanctioning Delimiter for data dissemination?
You completely do not know how FR work... Delimiter do not share confidential personal data they share one way crypted a hash... from the hash nobody (except maybe that big data backup agency) can tell who you are even FR do not know
to the check you in FR database other providers crypt their customers data and compare hashes
example what is shared 82c5532b0a3f01767aa2d9e6d26435b9a7d6a767
That is a technicality for lawyers, we all know why people are put there, so dont beat around the bush, we are not in a court of law here.
Fake contact details, refusal to verify is going to land anyone in the same situation (some hosts will not bother to take the time to post in FR, or even do more than quitely delete/close the account after refunding if the money did go through in the first place). Obviously you don't like feeling pointed out as a bad guy publicly (even though FR really isn't public, but I still understand your point) - but you did it to yourself, even if the follow ups post that initial 'false information' at signup you tried to correct. Sometimes you can't un fire the bullet and you get stuck with messy consequences.
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You sound like you have some serious beef with Delimiter. Your entire argument was based on the OP's supposed concern over his privacy, and when I pointed out the multiple times he stated things to the contrary, you dismissed them as "not the point" and continued on your rant about Delimiter violating customers' privacy and sharing confidential data when the cause didn't warrant it.
Delimiter did not even report OP for fraud, which is what you're implying with the "he's only guilty of providing dummy data" angle you're now going for. In case you haven't noticed, Fraudrecord isn't specifically for reporting customers who have committed fraud, and this has been established over and over again by numerous other members as well as stated clearly on the actual website. The name of the site is rather unfortunate as right off the bat it implies anyone who has been listed there has committed fraud, but it covers a wide range of clients who may be reported for issues such as being abusive to support staff-- or sign up with false information and refuse to verify. Delimiter gave ample time for OP to work with them, and he ignored them until they threatened suspension of his service. You also forgot that OP approached @MarkTurner about the issue first, which prompted him to request the tickets and have a look for himself. Ever thought that perhaps OP did give him permission to review his situation?
Frankly, the only thing Delimiter is guilty of is not catching that sign-up when it first happened rather than during an audit much later. Whether or not they should have filed a report on FR is up for debate, but if you're going to rant about them leaking clients' confidential data to a third party website you might as well skewer every single provider here that has ever used FR as well, because they've all done the exact same thing.
That was for phone number, which he said he told Delimiter that he didn't have a phone, not for street number.
Oh the backfire.
I bet you helped delimiter sell a few dedis. These topics show they care about their neighbourhood.
10/10 OP is the best delimiter seller
Makes me want to deal with Delimiter even more now.
Why is this still open, @Nekki ?
It is an interesting discussion actually.
There is a very thin line regarding personal information data obfuscation for safe surfing or privacy sake, and data obfuscation to infringe the law or to bend the rule
We need to learn more about privacy, and when one's privacy should not be considered private anymore.
The fuss is that there was (seemingly) no need for Delimiter to report @alessio, so people wonder why they went out of their way to do it. Delimiter could have simply cancelled the account, forgot about it, and moved on. If they had done so, these threads wouldn't have appeared. I have no understanding of the particularities of the situation, but it isn't difficult to abstractly sympathize with the OP.
As @AnthonySmith said on page 2,
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Actually, the privacy spin that is interesting to me is to understand how an unofficial "ombudsman" from a "separate legal entity" can request/receive ticket/customer interaction details and comment about them in a public forum.
Actually, when we see the previous thread, http://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/37435/impossible-to-obtain-a-response-from-delimiter/p1 ,
@MarkTurner was dragged into the thread ("I asked him to kindly escalate ...")
It was originally a private communication between OP and @MarkTurner.
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And, as I have stated before (IMHO) Yomura/Delimiter should designate an "official" representative for this (and whatever other forum) interactions. Not an (admittedly hard working) employee, from a legally separate business unit, doing this out of the goodness of his heart.
The fact that he is doing this out of kindness does not lessen their legal exposure, etc when real sh*t hits the fan.
Edit: And BTW, this is one of the reasons why you do not want to do anything in an "unofficial" capacity for ANY employer. When sh*t goes down, they can potentially make you a "fall guy," and step over your cold, dead, carcass to replace you with another "employee."
Heh. Delimiter, keep up the good work!
The legal part is true, but there is also legal terms that OP didn't abide (this is from http://www.delimitervps.com/legal/termsconditions.php ):
Providing False Data on any Contract or Application: including fraudulent use of credit card numbers.
and also companies have their way to protect their business:
You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Delimiter USA, LLC, its officers, directors, employees and agents, from and against any and all claims, damages, obligations, losses, liabilities, costs or debt, and expenses (including but not limited to attorney's fees) arising from: (i) your use of and access to the Delimiter USA services; (ii) your violation of any term of this Agreement; (iii) your violation of any third party right, including without limitation any copyright, property, or privacy right; or (iv) any claim that use of our services caused damage to a third party. This defense and indemnification obligation will survive this Agreement and your use of the Delimiter USA services.
in my understanding should this be taken to legal area, @MarkTurner might be considered not as someone from Yomura, but in his capacity as an agent of Delimiter USA:)
Another good example of how a company work in relation with privacy, is the privacy policy from @TurnkeyInternet https://turnkeyinternet.net/policies/privacy/
By using services from any providers, one is bound with their TOS/AUP/Privacy Policy, and some of the policies requires one to waive some of one's rights
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You do realize that you can put almost anything you want in a "contract" but it can still be in violation of prevailing law, right?
Also note that I have not commented on OP's supposed violation of their ToS. My concern is with privacy (or apparent lack thereof) with respect to this provider. Don't honestly care if this sells more servers for Yomura/Delimiter OR if it makes me popular or unpopular. I am not here for popularity.
IMHO, there are serious concerns when an unauthorized party can be privy to, and speak on behalf of, a separate legal entity with key details of a contract. Period.
Is Delimiter an entirely separate entity when they're owned by Yomura?
(overhead announcement: paging armchair lawyers/real lawyers to aisle three..)
Certainly, but then it is within the legal/court domain.
It is a serious concern, but real arbitration can only be settled in court
. However, it is OP who asked for help in the first place.
Before entering any contract we need to understand what's in the contract so that when we agree with the contract, it means that we waive some of the rights despite of the prevailing law, unless there is a class action against those who directly or indirectly violate the prevailing law.
@ihatetonyy @vRozenSch00n - I was going to just stay out of this because we're still going round in circles as as you put it the 'armchair lawyers' want to contribute now. But.....
@geekalot etc - Yomura OWNS Delimiter. When you use a Delimiter service, you are in fact using a Yomura service. Delimiter is a sales and support operation nothing more, all of their infrastructure, servers, IPs are owned and operated by Yomura. Everytime Delimiter's techs can't solve a ticket they escalate it to Yomura to resolve. Everytime there is a DDOS, Yomura's NetOps deal with the attack and notify the relevant brand (eg Delimiter) to notify their customer.
Lets really analyse this situation, a customer buys a service from Delimiter, who deploys the service in a Yomura datacentre, on Yomura Network. When a customer asks for assistance a Delimiter employee takes care of it (not an outsourced service, more on that in a moment), who if they need assistance requests it from their parent company who is also their service provider.
In this instance Yomura acts as Delimiter's agent to provide the service and as its agent to provide any additional technical assistance.
As much as you want this to be something, its not. Our terms of service are very clear in this matter.
Secondly in this exact instance, the OP contacted me to help resolve his problem, offering me any additional information I may need. In this instance, he had effectively contacted the parent of the company he had contracted (or abortively contracted) with and requested assistance. At that point, when I contacted Delimiter (a wholly owned subsidiary) for information, I was acting as an agent of Delimiter in the capacity of a full time employee of their parent company. I am bound by the same data responsibility requirements as Delimiter and if you were to actually investigate this matter properly you would see that Delimiter's data custodian is Yomura. But of course, you're not investigating this properly, you're just throwing things out there and hoping you can make something stick. Let me be very clear, when you join this company, there is a nearly 300 page guide covering everything from sickness, harassment to this wonderful subject called Data Protection and Data Confidentiality. I know that section well because I have been served subpoenas more than enough times as Yomura's head of network operations by police on both sides of the Atlantic. I know exactly what can be disclosed and what can't. So don't worry, I am more than versed in this subject.
NOTHING in these two threads could be construed in any European court as being a personal/identifiable information disclosure. Every address has been obfuscated, even though it disclosure would end this stupidity in a blink of an eye.
I'll tell you what is a problem and something you can get your teeth into, is when a company uses an outsourced support service who most of the time are outside of the jurisdiction where the data is stored. Lets take an example:
JohnnyHost (not real before we have more drama) hires Mumbai Support Centre (again not real) to handle his support. Most of the time its done by just adding to the shopping cart and then filling in a form - here is the WHMCS login, these are the root logins for the servers etc
Here's a good example:
http://bobcares.com/support-plans/vps-support/vps-support-for-vps-providers.html
So at this juncture, unknown people who are potentially working for this support company (or may be outsourced again), now login to WHMCS, they can see ALL the customer data. I know some people restrict it, but I have been party to enough companies that we've acquired to know its not the case prior to acquisition and I can assure you that some of these companies were more than sizeable, we're not talking 100-200 customers.
Additionally these companies have root access to Johnnyhost's servers so they can troll around inside there vzctl enter where they want or why bother just wander around /vz/private and view customer email. And again, YES I have seen this when I have audited servers that we have received as part of an acquisition.
So lets talk privacy violation - in this imaginery case Johnnyhost is illegally making data available to third parties without any protection in place, the third party support company hasn't executed an NDA, just Johnnyhost ordered the service, filled in the form and gave away all your data.
Come back to this debatical with Yomura/Delimiter. Yomura owns/controls Delimiter, Delimiter abides by Yomura's confidentiality requires as do all of their companies. As part of the business, the companies' roles change - Yomura supplier of service to Delimiter, Delimiter then needs assistance and Yomura becomes the agent of Delimiter. But its all still inside the same group of companies and all within the jurisdiction. No contractors or third parties are provided access to any of the data.
There is case to answer here, we've hashed it out to death. The only problem that remains is why Delimiter accepted this order because its blatantly wrong on every possible level. Delimiter has been taken to task over it during that audit and they've put an additional series of automated checks in place now which will weed out similar problems. Of course they'll let a few orders go through along the way, but if the individual co-operates with them and satisfies their reasonable, logical and more importantly legally mandated question of 'who are you'.
Many hosts don't receive subpoenas because no-one can find them, they end up trying to serve on their provider who is equally shady, who ultimately ends up with the subpoena served on the person on the IP address. So then what? Police, tax office, Dept of Homeland Security will accept 'Oh we don't know - we didn't check, we just took their money and turned a blind eye to the fact that it was rubbish'. These days the responsibility is with the supplier to know who is sending them money; this may not be so important for hosts turning over a few hundred dollars a month, but as businesses grow your requirement to account properly substantially increases and so do the penalties when you get caught out.
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@ihatetonyy: Great question. Note that I am using @MarkTurner's words verbatim (thus the use of the quotes when referring to the "ombudsman" and "separate legal entity" references). He specifically uses both phrases, here: http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/793349/#Comment_793349