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False name? Then all Chinese people named Frank or Jane are using false names. That is a pseudonym, not very much different than Tr1cky.
As for the "option" of providing a phone or not, we already agree a work number should have been provided at least, and that was not the main cause of the issue, also that being listed at FR was a bit harsh and unwarranted as long as nobody was defrauded by the OP (chargeback, "unauthorized" scam, illegal content, DDoS, spam, etc) but if the ToS/AUP requires correct and complete data and you opt out of it, then you should never wonder when bad things happen, just accept the consequences of your actions and move on to a more lenient host. It is not like you were sent to jail or something.
I am also pretty sure that, if the OP would have said in the ticket, ok, I am sorry, call me to this number to settle things up and would have agreed with the partial refund OR give the full data they required, none of this would have happened.
Also, slandering Delimiter? What kind of joke is this? Change thread title, OK, post taking Delimiter's side, OK, close the thread to prevent an open and pretty decent discussion about serious issues in the industry and privacy areas today, that is a no-no IMO, this is not a thread full of memes where 12 yo bash each other and threaten DDoS. I have seen much worse staying.
I've had two pretty bad experiences with Delimiter, but I'm still inclined to believe them over the OP. I find it very hard to believe someone even has a job if they don't have a phone number.
@Dylan - can you PM me details of these experiences.
Sorry, PM'd you a few minutes ago. Was busy yesterday, had to step out shortly after my first few responses.
I am not going to read this entire thread, but...
@alessio: want to prove Delimiter is awful and you were a nice guy which only mistyped an address? You should have submitted ID proof ages ago.
Just to throw this in there, but I put 00000000000 as a number myself sometimes when ordering because I don't want phone calls (but the correct name & address).
My reasoning?? I'm deaf.
So just because a contact number is incorrect doesn't mean the person has something to hide.
However - if everything screams fake (fake name, address, unmatched paypal etc)... Then that does look fishy.
Sorry about that, but this was a work project, every company has a phone and someone to answer it, at least from time to time. Some providers send a verification code, etc.
But, yeah, being deaf is a damn good reason not to have a phone.
Well, even deaf people can read SMSes and nowadays talking is not the only possible way to use a phone.
Reporting people to fraudrecord for the smallest things (no real malicious abuse of the service) is not cool. I think this is going to motivate customers to use bogus identification all the way to avoid their reputation from being ruined with future hosts.
Fraudrecord should be fair towards both sides and question the legitness of reports from hosts aswel because right now it looks like Delimiter caused a future problem for @alessio by creating this report - this is not completely to blame on delimiter though, fraudrecord apparently allows sending in weak reports containing no real service abuse.
This raises a question,
Isn't fraudrecord originally invented to catch the malicious guys?
Yes, but how many providers see a mobile number and think to SMS rather than call?
I guess not many, even we automatically phone verify all orders (automated phone call from MaxMind). Though if one would open a ticket and explaing that he has hearing problems and so this can't work for him we would of course try an alternate approach - i.e. by manually sending a SMS instead.
We only check the suspicious orders. Well, what I think is suspicious. In 90% of cases, there is no reply and the user apologizes for mistyping all the numbers. Unfortunately, this also means DoS from our side.
So he can "cherry-pick" the threads he wants to participate in and the responses he wants to provide to Delimiter customers?
Don't get me wrong; I like some of the truly insightful information @MarkTurner has provided in various threads (in particular about colo's, etc), but this^^ has always bothered me a bit, ie:
"Working for the parent" company (and not directly connected) when convenient, but providing key details when it is to Delimiter's benefit.
It is part of what has made me so hesitant about getting involved with Yomura/Delimiter to this point.
In any case, I don't have a horse in this race; so, carry on.
/observation.
Where do you get that he's doing that? I've not seen a related thread without him in it for a long time. Do you have an example or do you just mean that he's not digging up old threads from before he was active here?
It was @neroux. He got pissed off and wanted me to delete that one. I said I wouldn't so I locked it.
Please. I get that from at least a year of looking at threads that involve Yomura/Delimiter.
I really don't want to derail this thread. What I will say is that (for me) this is one of the key things that has kept me from engaging with Yomura/Delimiter for Dedicated Servers or Colocation (and I did have genuine interest).
(To be clear: not necessarily their fraud checking mechanism, though I definitely have issues with this FraudRecord-nazi mentality of some providers with no rights of the customer to clear their name. WTH??? But, more with the sometime company representative who appears to speak on behalf of the "susidiary" when he feels the needs, but then claims no direct affiliation when he chooses.)
Anything further needs to be discussed outside of this thread. And for me, that is not worth another thread, as I just choose not to utilize the services of providers that I don't feel comfortable with, as we all have the right to. End of story.
EDIT: And, IMHO, this FraudRecord system appears to seriously flawed by missing a transparent 3rd party oversight/customer dispute process; as such it is ripe for unchecked abuse by providers who just didn't "like" their interaction with a customer.
So you don't have an example? I'm not being argumentative, it's a simple question really. I mean what you say makes sense but it has to be based on something or it's just a thought exercise. I don't recall any threads about their company, since Mark has been active here, without him speaking up in them. It sounds like you are aware of some. Show me?
I've been here a while myself. Maybe I missed something. I'd like to see what you have seen.
@geekalot - I don't cherry pick any threads, I contribute any thread that involves Delimiter/Yomura or anything that I have some expertise to contribute in.
One thing I realise with these companies is that they won't engage on the smaller forums because there is just not enough revenue there for them to warrant it.
That means threads like this get left unchecked unless someone like me comes along and bothers to do the research and puts up a response. But I do this as courtesy and also to escape my bubble world of dealing with inane hardware. I didn't intend to become Yomura or Delimiter's mouthpiece on here. In fact I had somewhere between zero and zero percent interest in being involved in the politics of it all. But when I arrived on here, I was 'outed' as a Yomura employee within about 3 days, so I quickly added to my sig a disclosure to avoid that drama.
If you look through every thread involving Delimiter/Yomura that has been posted to this site since I joined it just over 1 year ago, there has been a precise and honest answer to each and every complaint/concern/incident raised.
I don't dress things up, I just put the facts out there as they exist. So if Yomura is in the wrong, I'll stand up and be the first to say we screwed up; if the customer screwed up, then again I'll point the finger and explain the problem.
I am not paid or compensated to represent Yomura or any of its subsidiaries, my role begins and ends with ultimate responsibility for Yomura's network; being present on sites like this gives me a better insight into what people are using our infrastructure to do. I get daily/weekly messages from members of this site telling me directly about problems they are having, things they want to see improved and things that they need help with. Some of these items relate to network issues and I can often help them directly or as was the case with Time Warner/Comcast as a result of the number of requests from their customers accessing our infrastructure, we added as direct transit/peering networks.
Usually by the time this has filtered through to me via Delimiter et al, it takes months. So it serves as a fantastic way to shortcut the quarterly review meetings.
To clarify some of your other points:
'but then claims no direct affiliation when he chooses' - My 'affiliation' is to Yomura, my employer, who in turn owns a company called Delimiter. Delimiter use the network of Yomura and the infrastructure of Yomura; but they are a separate legal entity. When someone contacts me and asks for help, they understand that I have no power to order Delimiter to do anything, I can get the facts from them and act like a sort of 'ombudsman' and if I see something wrong then I can go to task for the customer. Often I have found there has been a misunderstanding between customer/company so talking to the staff member face-to-face can help resolve the situation and things get solved. Some customers have needed to get routing issues solved and waiting for the escalation takes time so getting me the Delimiter ticket number allows me to ask for it to be escalated by ticket number to me directly and it can get resolved right away.
Its not foolproof but its a backdoor to some of the processes; and I am happy to act in that capacity. But again to be clear, its not an official path, its just one employee going the extra mile to help the enduser.
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@MarkTurner, first, as I know you have already discerned, I have no personal issue against you (I am glad you realize that). So, I am glad we can discuss in a civil manor without drama...
My concern (among others) is related to consistency and privacy. My personal opinion (and many may not agree with me, oh well) is that you are either "IN" or "OUT" when it comes to speaking about specific customer concerns/tickets/issues with Delimiter. If you can't represent them completely .... don't. Be consistent.
I appreciate that you are an unpaid "ombudsman" but it irks me that we would have to come to some random forum in order to get better service/priority to tickets etc from a provider.
It irks me even more that my signup details, ticket info, etc can be shared with an "acting" ombudsman from a "separate legal entity" so freely. This is very concerning to me.
Again, no issue discussing elsewhere, I really don't/didn't want to derail this thread. I am just giving feedback on some of the reasons that have given me serious pause to becoming a Yomura/Delmiter customer. For me, this thread highlighted that again ... it is just this time I chose to say something.
Cheers.
@geekalot - If you go back in history, you'll see that people were allowed to just create their delusions about Yomura and its subsidiaries. At one point about 4-5 years ago it looks like people were just getting more and more carried away with their stories. Some were 100% true, but some were so far from reality that Superman would look like a factual story.
These allegations were never addressed, Yomura didn't bother making any response, they just left the people to embellish each others stories.
If we talk about Delimiter as they are effectively the focus of this discussion has no representation on LET, they have no interest because there is not enough revenue to be had. So look at the OP's story, imagine that had been left to circulate around; or that other guy who was claiming his server was being unfairly shutdown. The real story would never have been heard, these people would have been able to perpetuate their nonsense and it would have damaged Delimiter's reputation.
The truth of it was entirely different to the poster's version of events. The guy with the DDOS even edited the tickets to change the context entirely.
Am I 'IN' or 'OUT'? I have never walked away from a fight on here. If I am representing a company in the right, then I'll fight the point until the truth is told, I am representing a company in the wrong, then I'll say we're wrong and try to make good on the problem.
If you think for a second, I am being selective, then go through the history. Even when morons like that guy yesterday claimed I / Delimiter was bribing LET, I played along with him.
Ultimately when a customer takes their story to the public opinion court, then the company being (falsely/rightly) accused has the right to represent themselves. I have the technical knowledge to understand the issues and can understand where the customer is trying to do something crazy or where we are blatantly failing. I have no vested interest either way, so I am not going to hide away if we are doing something wrong, I'll say it the way it is.
I think next step for you is to search Delimiter on LET and look at every thread be it good or bad and you'll see MarkTurner in there somewhere
My reply is going to be a bit blunt: then speak with your employer to empower you to be the "OFFICIAL" liaison for LET and/or WHT with the full authority to resolve customer issues.
Part of the problem here is the word "fight" ... these shouldn't be construed as "fights" but customer resolution efforts (for lack of a better euphemism). (But, yes, LET seems to enjoy "Internet Combat" above all else).
BTW, I have looked at your post history here and that is why I even bothered to comment in the first place ... normally I wouldn't bother ... so this isn't a magical feeling that just came to me today. You may very well post in every Delimiter thread, but I really feel that you pick your battles and battlefields in a very interesting way.
EDIT: Edited because the first part of my response was not separated from MarkTurner's replies I was referencing.
Clearly some of these situations are simple to resolve, customer feels X, can't get the problem resolved and a few calls and the problem is fixed. Others are blatant fights, these fights are endemic of this forum.
When you have situations where an individual creates a non-existent or completely distorted situation complete with edited tickets and collateral then its not about resolution, because this person clearly doesn't have a problem to resolve (other than in some cases their lack of Photoshop skills). These scenarios don't have a basis in reality so the premiss that we're engaging on is nonsense. These situations are created purely for sensationalism or to put in simpler terms to create a fight/battle.
Take a look at WHT about Delimiter/Yomura 4-5 years ago - customers complaining of Yomura acquiring businesses and then the services being shutdown, etc. No-one represented Yomura to set story straight; but hopefully these situations are changing by my efforts on here. That doesn't mean Yomura is perfect, far from it, but when you read nonsense like in this thread and its precursor, if I had not set the story straight then this individual would have been able to perpetrate his lies and manipulations and cause a stain on Delimiter's reputation.
I don't agree with you. Maybe you would give an example.
@MarkTurner What's your designation at Yomura?
@srvrpro - Manager of Network Operations
I don't even know why you're still responding. It's clear that there's no issue, basically to the point where it's black-and-white.
I don't understand why people feel that what the OP did was appropriate, and based on what he's said, it wasn't a mistake. The next guy doesn't sign up with fake information, so the question is, why should the OP be able to and get away with it?
I personally wouldn't want customers who lie to me. Business relationships involve trust, so lying to the company ASAP doesn't seem like a good indicator for future action. They have a right to share their experience on FR; as mentioned before, it's up to new hosts discretion to trust any reports regardless.
@alexh - As you say there is nothing left to add. The Delimiter wont accept my order problem has come up on here many times, its always come down to the fact they can't verify the information provided.
Cool, then, but the problem is with FR, can't verify does not mean it is false and if it was, there is still too little ground to put the customer in FR. Lets face it, many people feel uneasy with given the real data around these days, you will report every customer with a dedi which does not put a valid phone number you can verify?
You should have not given the service in the first place, if the customer who did not provide the valid data already hosted CP for days or put up a CC for a bot network, then we have a saying for it here: catch the blind man and take his eyes out.
Then:
1. Data was fake, listing him in FR serves no purpose, he will use other fake data to promote terrorism or host child porn with someone else;
2. The data was not fake: he is right and you are damaging his reputation out of revenge.
As you see, this does not serve any purpose, except venting some frustration for some employees understandably annoyed by the customer's cambativity on one hand and the nazi legislation on the other hand.
Normal solution: terminate, partially refund say thank you, good-bye.
I dont like alessio and I agree he is not a reasonable person to talk to, and editing out some info to make himself look better does not help anything, but Delimiter overreacted here, this is my conclusion because the customer only deserved, AT MOST a termination without refund for abuse towards the staff and providing false data, if we agree it was so.
How does this relate to this situation? Nobody is accusing anybody of terrorism or other extremely immoral/illegal activities like you've listed. Is there a logical reason for the extremity of your post(s)?
He provided false information; yes, it could not be verified. You're focusing only on the phone number, and arguing semantics. His address was also found to be false from what I've read here. The country he told Delimiter he lived in was different from that of his PayPal. That's three strikes. You talk about exclusion of information, but nowhere in your post did I see these crucial points mentioned.
As I said before, FraudRecord reports should be taken with a grain of salt. However, the title of the service is misleading. No, this client did not commit "fraud." Rather, I would say he both: a) breached contract / Delimiter terms of service that he agreed to, and b) was dishonest in both providing accurate contact information and combative in attempting to rectify the original issue.
Being a web host, I would imagine that services like this are helpful in a number of ways. For example, I have seen/heard of staff abuse reports; this goes to prove that FR is useful in a number of ways.
I personally wouldn't want to host a client who's dishonest in multiple ways; while you may see it differently, as our opinions seem to differ greatly, he was dishonest in both providing contact information and by breaching the contract / ToS set out by Delimiter. Acting so nonchalant about these things is concerning; what's the point of any business agreement, legally valid or not, if nobody follows them?