A TOS DISPUTE with hostbrr, need help!

detavern

@labze said:

@detavern said:

@labze said:
Kudos for actually having the balls the post this on LET. Mostly when someone threatens with this, it never happens.

I do symphatize with your situation, you are clearly being scammed. But you making a poor decision to purchase an account rather than buying a service transfer is not something I should be held accountable for.

You open a ticket from a e-mail with no related active services. You admit, you've made a purchase of an account from another person. You pay for a service that is already active on the account, effectively renewing it. Halfway through the subscription the prior owner revokes your access to the account and the VPS.

Then I get asked to provide a full refund for a service that has been provided and still is active, because you've made a poor decision. I call this a poor decision not only because you've purchased an account but also because you apparently haven't secured your account after receiving it.

I could spend hours playing detective to check whether or not this is all true, or just some poor attempt to receive a refund. But that is simply not my job.

But in the end from the business perspective, the service which has been paid for has been and still is being provided for the paid period.

This case is not much different to someone being hacked. We aren't responsible for the safety of your account, and you have no right to dispute a payment just because you've lost access to it entirely due to your own lack of security. All the neccessary tools to prevent this situation is available, such as changing passwords and enabling 2FA.

How interesting it is?
When someone threaten me with "input your IP and email into MaxMind and Fraudrecords" first, then says I threaten you open to the public?

I am j> @detavern said:

@labze said:
Kudos for actually having the balls the post this on LET. Mostly when someone threatens with this, it never happens.

I do symphatize with your situation, you are clearly being scammed. But you making a poor decision to purchase an account rather than buying a service transfer is not something I should be held accountable for.

You open a ticket from a e-mail with no related active services. You admit, you've made a purchase of an account from another person. You pay for a service that is already active on the account, effectively renewing it. Halfway through the subscription the prior owner revokes your access to the account and the VPS.

Then I get asked to provide a full refund for a service that has been provided and still is active, because you've made a poor decision. I call this a poor decision not only because you've purchased an account but also because you apparently haven't secured your account after receiving it.

I could spend hours playing detective to check whether or not this is all true, or just some poor attempt to receive a refund. But that is simply not my job.

But in the end from the business perspective, the service which has been paid for has been and still is being provided for the paid period.

This case is not much different to someone being hacked. We aren't responsible for the safety of your account, and you have no right to dispute a payment just because you've lost access to it entirely due to your own lack of security. All the neccessary tools to prevent this situation is available, such as changing passwords and enabling 2FA.

How interesting it is?
When someone threaten me with "input your IP and email into MaxMind and Fraudrecords" first, then says I threaten you open to the public?

I hope you can see that you aren't getting the support from others you might have hoped for.

Of course I will report your PayPal account to prevent similar fraud happening to other providers.

I am quite sure that this dispute will end in your favor. PayPal will likely refund you at no cost to me. And that's fine, you get your money back. But that'll likely also encourage you to do this stunt again, so I am just taking precautions for others.

As I said, you make me no choice.

I tried communicate peacefully with you in ticket.

Never heard a simple helpful response.

I tried seek for the refund and alternative solutions

ZERO

I opened a PayPal dispute

You threaten me with "input your IP and email into MaxMind and Fraudrecords"

Then, I pointed out that your ToS page is offline for long time.

You even not willing fix it for weeks, instead, delete the records from wayback machine.

If this is the way you choose to treat your customers or any other community members, then I have nothing further to say.

rcy026

@detavern said:

As I said, you make me no choice.

Actually, you do have a choice. Accept that you fucked up, learn from it, take the loss and move on.
Why does all mjj's always think that accepting that they are wrong is not even a choice?

network

@rcy026 said: take the loss and move on

or sue the actual scammer.

detavern

@rcy026 said:

@detavern said:

As I said, you make me no choice.

Actually, you do have a choice. Accept that you fucked up, learn from it, take the loss and move on.
Why does all mjj's always think that accepting that they are wrong is not even a choice?

Maybe I should post the whole ticket here, I think I'm not asking anything out of the range

labze

@detavern said:

@rcy026 said:

@detavern said:

As I said, you make me no choice.

Actually, you do have a choice. Accept that you fucked up, learn from it, take the loss and move on.
Why does all mjj's always think that accepting that they are wrong is not even a choice?

Maybe I should post the whole ticket here, I think I'm not asking anything out of the range

Sure, post the whole ticket. You demand a refund or start a dispute.

It sounds like you are the one that didn't give me any choice and then forced one upon me :-) You had plenty of choices but chose the worst.

zed

@labze said: Of course I will report your PayPal account to prevent similar fraud happening to other providers.

i had to laugh and i can't help but wonder if it's just here in LET where you're a fraudster "pulling stunts" by requiring what you paid for. context matters of course, but my sides.

layer7

Hi,

i am sorry, but how exactly does this two fit together:

@labze said:
I do symphatize with your situation, you are clearly being scammed. But you making a poor decision to purchase an account rather than buying a service transfer is not something I should be held accountable for.

[...]

@labze said:
You pay for a service that is already active on the account, effectively renewing it. Halfway through the subscription the prior owner revokes your access to the account and the VPS.

[...]

@labze said:
But in the end from the business perspective, the service which has been paid for has been and still is being provided for the paid period.

You acknowledge that the person paid FOR a service. And you acknowledge that the person ( who paid FOR the service ) got REVOKED from accessing the service.

I do not really understand this mind set nor how this all fits together contractually.

You acknowledge the person got scammed ( means nothing else but the payment the person made was NOT rightful ).

And you acknowledge the person has no access to the service ( that he actually paid for ).

You make your life here a bit more too easy i think.

The correct way would be to:

1. either refund and mark the service unpaid and suspend it
2. or accept the payment from the person as a payment for the service from the new, true account owner

But you choose to keep the payment from a person you do not acknowledge to be your contract partner ( and this way be the one who owe you money in exchange for service ).

So either you take the money and provide service to the person who paid you for the service or you refund the money.

I fully understand that there are situations where you have a contract with entity A and entity B pays for it. Thats actually very seldom, but it happens.

But in this situations its clear that B WANTS to pay for A.

And this is here simply not the case. You acknowledge yourself that B does NOT want to pay for A. B paid for B -- at least he thought so.

So we fall back to a situation where B paid and does not receive any service from you for that.
And thats where the story actually ends.

You are keeping money from someone you acknowledge to have been scammed.

This has nothing to do with your example where accounts have been hacked or what ever. I never heard that a hacker paid for a service and complaining then he is not able to use it.
Hacker do not pay it. They hack and use things without permission. Thats why they are hackers and not customers. Thats the major difference ;-)

---

So all in all, i am really sorry, but this way of handling that situation is for my personal taste beyond fishy.

detavern

@labze said:

@detavern said:

@rcy026 said:

@detavern said:

As I said, you make me no choice.

Actually, you do have a choice. Accept that you fucked up, learn from it, take the loss and move on.
Why does all mjj's always think that accepting that they are wrong is not even a choice?

Maybe I should post the whole ticket here, I think I'm not asking anything out of the range

Sure, post the whole ticket. You demand a refund or start a dispute.

It sounds like you are the one that didn't give me any choice and then forced one upon me :-) You had plenty of choices but chose the worst.

Won't too late, I'm working on it

detavern

So I post the ticket content by a reverse order, hoping that won't bother everyone's reading experience.
I have posted almost all of the content except one with sensitive information and another one with PayPal dispute ID.
Feel free to be critical on me. If you think what I am doing was inappropriate in the ticket, please no hesitation to point it out.

---

detavern

A little off-topic, but the original reason I acquired this service from a third party was that I needed a 1–2TB European server to build my garage cluster and observe its performance under high-latency conditions.

My first choice was HostHatch, but their servers were not available at that time. As a result, I purchased this service from a third party at what I considered to be a reasonable price.

This was actually my first experience with HostBRR’s services, as well as one of the few times I had used a European server. Due to geographical reasons, the vast majority of my VPS infrastructure is located in the APAC region.

JabJab

Holy shit @layer7 take a break. You made million of assumptions.

Hear this out: What if "owner number 1" decided to buy it back from "owner number 2" (after selling it in first place) after "owner number 2" extended it because "owner number 1" decided he needs it back and is willing to pay premium? And to make this all smoother he decided to "recover via support" the account rather than wait for "owner number 2" to wake up from his weekly nap?!
What if it is owner number 2 actually scamming owner number 1 because he never intended to sell it back - just took the money (premium!).

Or hear this out:
What if "owner number 2" is faking all those screenshot e-mails - ticket and paypal in photoshop because he has photographic memory and has seen his "friend" opening hostbrr e-mail while in class?

You have no idea, there are million of situations and ways this could unfold. Service was paid. Service is active. "Proper" account/e-mail did not asked for refund. What else do you want to do? I think he was even told to take it up with payment provider - the "proper" way at this point.

yoshiki

@layer7 said:
So all in all, i am really sorry, but this way of handling that situation is for my personal taste beyond fishy.

You should definitely go ahead and contact the OP to offer the same server for no extra money. Maybe if you put your money where your mouth is the fishy taste will fade?

labze

Edit - I missed something.

emperor

IMHO just delete the account and refund the money spend for renewing the service - the fees. Time lost on this is not worth..

JabJab

or check this out!

What if "owner 2" is just "owner 1" via VPN and he wants to extort free year of service?!

yoshiki

@emperor said:
IMHO just delete the account and refund the money spend for renewing the service - the fees.

According to this post Paypal had already refunded the money yesterday. Also, OP fails to mention that this account was actually being passed around like a blunt and the seller wasn't even the first owner (according to the seller). This is a report done in bad faith at this point.

emperor

@yoshiki said: According to this post Paypal had already refunded the money yesterday.

I understood that money refunded were from buying the account not the money for renewing the service, which this post i think is about ?

labze

@layer7 said:
Hi,

i am sorry, but how exactly does this two fit together:

@labze said:
I do symphatize with your situation, you are clearly being scammed. But you making a poor decision to purchase an account rather than buying a service transfer is not something I should be held accountable for.

[...]

@labze said:
You pay for a service that is already active on the account, effectively renewing it. Halfway through the subscription the prior owner revokes your access to the account and the VPS.

[...]

@labze said:
But in the end from the business perspective, the service which has been paid for has been and still is being provided for the paid period.

You acknowledge that the person paid FOR a service. And you acknowledge that the person ( who paid FOR the service ) got REVOKED from accessing the service.

I do not really understand this mind set nor how this all fits together contractually.

You acknowledge the person got scammed ( means nothing else but the payment the person made was NOT rightful ).

And you acknowledge the person has no access to the service ( that he actually paid for ).

You make your life here a bit more too easy i think.

The correct way would be to:

1. either refund and mark the service unpaid and suspend it
2. or accept the payment from the person as a payment for the service from the new, true account owner

But you choose to keep the payment from a person you do not acknowledge to be your contract partner ( and this way be the one who owe you money in exchange for service ).

So either you take the money and provide service to the person who paid you for the service or you refund the money.

I fully understand that there are situations where you have a contract with entity A and entity B pays for it. Thats actually very seldom, but it happens.

But in this situations its clear that B WANTS to pay for A.

And this is here simply not the case. You acknowledge yourself that B does NOT want to pay for A. B paid for B -- at least he thought so.

So we fall back to a situation where B paid and does not receive any service from you for that.
And thats where the story actually ends.

You are keeping money from someone you acknowledge to have been scammed.

This has nothing to do with your example where accounts have been hacked or what ever. I never heard that a hacker paid for a service and complaining then he is not able to use it.
Hacker do not pay it. They hack and use things without permission. Thats why they are hackers and not customers. Thats the major difference ;-)

---

So all in all, i am really sorry, but this way of handling that situation is for my personal taste beyond fishy.

That's one take on it.

Up until OP opened the dispute I had no way to verify that he was the owner of the PayPal. He writes from a different email.

I also can't verify what the deal was with the previous owner.

Maybe the account was never transferred and some other deal was made for him to pay his account. Then perhaps if I refunded the payment I'd be dealing with another person that would panic over his service was canceled due to non payment?

I've had multiple requests that one person wanted to pay for another so this isn't far fetched.

Why if the account was really transferred could the other person gain access to it again so easily and change email?

Something doesn't add up.

I stand by the hacking example. If the story is true then he lost access to his service due to poor account security. He paid for a service he intended to use but lost access as he let someone gain unauthorized access.

labze

@emperor said:
IMHO just delete the account and refund the money spend for renewing the service - the fees. Time lost on this is not worth..

Then I may deal with another person panicking that he lost his server.

I don't know what the deal was. Maybe OP paid for the service in return for feet pics?

I mean what do I know. This is why you don't do shit like this, and why I simply cannot refund the service and cancel it. There's two sides to every story, and in this case also a third.

yoshiki

@emperor said:

@yoshiki said: According to this post Paypal had already refunded the money yesterday.

I understood that money refunded were from buying the account not the money for renewing the service, which this post i think is about ?

According to OP he paid 13.50 for the renewal

Same amount was refunded by Paypal according to the same OP

Again, unless he's trying to get Hostbrr to pay for the fraudulent account transfer, this case was settled 23 hours ago.

detavern

@labze said:

@emperor said:
IMHO just delete the account and refund the money spend for renewing the service - the fees. Time lost on this is not worth..

Then I may deal with another person panicking that he lost his server.

I don't know what the deal was. Maybe OP paid for the service in return for feet pics?

I mean what do I know. This is why you don't do shit like this, and why I simply cannot refund the service and cancel it. There's two sides to every story, and in this case also a third.

This is the part that confuses me the most. It seems that you already have everything under control and fully understand the situation, yet you still choose to leave me with very little explanation.

labze

@detavern said:

@labze said:

@emperor said:
IMHO just delete the account and refund the money spend for renewing the service - the fees. Time lost on this is not worth..

Then I may deal with another person panicking that he lost his server.

I don't know what the deal was. Maybe OP paid for the service in return for feet pics?

I mean what do I know. This is why you don't do shit like this, and why I simply cannot refund the service and cancel it. There's two sides to every story, and in this case also a third.

This is the part that confuses me the most. It seems that you already have everything under control and fully understand the situation, yet you still choose to leave me with very little explanation.

I don't know how you got that from this.

I don't have anything under control as I have no idea what deal was made.

yoshiki

@detavern said:
This is the part that confuses me the most. It seems that you already have everything under control and fully understand the situation, yet you still choose to leave me with very little explanation.

@detavern Could you confirm you were refunded by Paypal according to this post 23 hours ago?
If so, what else do you want anyone to do?

eliphas

just whine more, I am bored

detavern

@yoshiki said:

@detavern said:
This is the part that confuses me the most. It seems that you already have everything under control and fully understand the situation, yet you still choose to leave me with very little explanation.

@detavern Could you confirm you were refunded by Paypal according to this post 23 hours ago?
If so, what else do you want anyone to do?

Yes, I could confirm it. And technically the dispute is closed in my flavor in less than 5 minutes.

I am here because I want to confirm whether it is legitimate for me to initiate a dispute under these circumstances, despite being threatened with reports to MaxMind and FraudRecord.

As I said, the amount is the most irrelevant part.

And this is the initial reason why I start the discuss from TOS.

tentor

@detavern said:
I am here because I want to confirm whether it is legitimate for me to initiate a dispute under these circumstances

Not like account transfer is legitimate, so entire "these circumstances" were 100% self-inflicted

labze

@detavern said:

@yoshiki said:

@detavern said:
This is the part that confuses me the most. It seems that you already have everything under control and fully understand the situation, yet you still choose to leave me with very little explanation.

@detavern Could you confirm you were refunded by Paypal according to this post 23 hours ago?
If so, what else do you want anyone to do?

Yes, I could confirm it. And technically the dispute is closed in my flavor in less than 5 minutes.

I am here because I want to confirm whether it is legitimate for me to initiate a dispute under these circumstances, despite being threatened with reports to MaxMind and FraudRecord.

As I said, the amount is the most irrelevant part.

And this is the initial reason why I start the discuss from TOS.

The dispute is still open. I'm not sure where you see it should be decided unless you closed it.

yoshiki

@detavern said:

@yoshiki said:
@detavern Could you confirm you were refunded by Paypal according to this post 23 hours ago?
If so, what else do you want anyone to do?

Yes, I could confirm it. And technically the dispute is closed in my flavor in less than 5 minutes.

You got "scammed" by another NS user (via Alipay which forces you to have real-name verification by the way, surely you could get your refund via that way), then got a refund via Paypal in 5 minutes. Post done! Everyone move along.

emperor

@detavern said: whether it is legitimate

how, when you got the account in a way which is not allowed?
Instead of checking tos and whatnots, simple presale ticket would had helped you.

detavern

@labze said:

@detavern said:

@yoshiki said:

@detavern said:
This is the part that confuses me the most. It seems that you already have everything under control and fully understand the situation, yet you still choose to leave me with very little explanation.

@detavern Could you confirm you were refunded by Paypal according to this post 23 hours ago?
If so, what else do you want anyone to do?

Yes, I could confirm it. And technically the dispute is closed in my flavor in less than 5 minutes.

I am here because I want to confirm whether it is legitimate for me to initiate a dispute under these circumstances, despite being threatened with reports to MaxMind and FraudRecord.

As I said, the amount is the most irrelevant part.

And this is the initial reason why I start the discuss from TOS.

The dispute is still open. I'm not sure where you see it should be decided unless you closed it.

It has been closed, as shown in my PayPal app.
And I have already got the chargeback.