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I am having a dispute with Advinservers. - Page 4
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I am having a dispute with Advinservers.

1246

Comments

  • tentortentor Member, Host Rep

    @meow1337 said: Did you specifically mentioned about this policy to customer when he was asking for quotes?

    I am not Advin representative nor involved into this case.

  • AdvinAdvin Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 26

    @meow1337 said:

    @tentor said: Read my message attentively please.

    okey i get it that records update takes time but cant be guranteed. but
    why its getting hard for you to understand what customer wants. everything you do online is based on your geolocation right. if customer has asked beforehand germany ip strict than it should be you who needs to ensure that ip geo must be according to customer needs. he definately has some staff and people on the server and if they visit to a website that requires only germany ip or would sense spam score on other country ips( you try to understand its his work related, i had the same issue earlier and had to drop whole server because of this. dont make him do that just replace his 30 ips to your available stock which has good geo pointers records on all popular sites). you are here for a long run, not to argue on small talks, build customer not sales. sales will come through.

    The customer did not ask beforehand with any specific geolocation requirement, and most IP databases did geolocate it to Germany (except MaxMind). We promised a server in Germany, not an IP address in Germany. We don't have any other IPv4 subnets in stock which properly geolocate, our other subnets also say Netherlands according to MaxMind.

    Thanked by 1Marx
  • CalmDownCalmDown Member

    @meow1337 said:

    @tentor said: customers know about this policy.

    Did you specifically mentioned about this policy to customer when he was asking for quotes?

    It's the customer's responsibility to read the legal of each provider. You even when sign up, you tick the checkbox and you read & agree.

  • MumblyMumbly Member

    @tentor said: there is no way to provide such guarantees, therefore I have implemented measures to let the (potential) customers know about this policy.

    If we put aside MaxMind and all other small third-party geolocation databases, sorting out a proper RIPE entry should be the first step before you sell the service on a certain location.

    https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/query?from=www&searchtext=212.193.3.6

  • AdvinAdvin Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 26

    @Mumbly said:

    @rbmax said: if buyer and cloudflare relies on third parties databases for ip location info, it's their own problem, not providers.

    RIPE database is not 3rd pary database. IP address entry in RIPE database show .nl as well.

    https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/query?from=www&searchtext=212.193.3.6

    I'll see if I can get this corrected, though something to note that MaxMind also places our other IPs in Netherlands (45.61.161.1 and 204.10.194.1) even though there is no indication that they belong in Netherlands on RIPE/ARIN.

  • @Advin said:

    @zGato said:

    @Advin said:

    @safakb said:
    @Advin He understood and helped me anyway, thank you.
    The main problem here may be that I am uninformed, but I could not guess that I would get an ip address from a different location while buying a server in Germany. So service providers may look at it from their side and see it as normal, but this is not the case on the user side. As a user, you expect what is written.

    Most IP databases just try to guess where IP addresses are located. Sometimes those guesses can be inaccurate. They don’t really know where it’s actually located.

    I only know of ipinfo.io
    and this is what it currently shows

    I believe it used to say Nuremberg quite a bit ago, and most of our subnets do say Nuremberg according to IPInfo (example: https://ipinfo.io/45.61.161.1 or https://ipinfo.io/204.10.194.1). If you see the check-host link, IPInfo did indeed report it as Germany earlier this month. We had already reached out for corrections to IPInfo a while ago, and provided them with our geofeed.

    Their evidence is that their ping probe in Czech has the lowest latency, which makes sense because Nuremberg and Czech are not too far from each other. It's likely that they just don't have a monitoring probe in Nuremberg.

    I'll submit a correction to them about this subnet.

    146.19.215.* seems to be servers in nürnberg but ips are kerkade, netherlands.

  • tentortentor Member, Host Rep

    @Mumbly said:

    @tentor said: there is no way to provide such guarantees, therefore I have implemented measures to let the (potential) customers know about this policy.

    If we put aside MaxMind and all other small third-party geolocation databases, sorting out a proper RIPE entry should be the first step before you sell the service on a certain location.

    https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/query?from=www&searchtext=212.193.3.6

    This is true. What I am talking about are guarantees of proper geolocation by any 3rd parties. I consider it as something not achievable. Therefore I deem it appropriate to mention that fact. Customer does not want to hear nothing about RIPE, MaxMind, etc. They want detection by some specific website, that might use their own databases, older version of known ones, etc. Too much things might go wrong.

    Thanked by 2yoursunny Patriarch
  • MumblyMumbly Member
    edited May 26

    @Advin said: I'll see if I can get this corrected, though something to note that MaxMind also places our other IPs in Netherlands (45.61.161.1) even though there is no indication that they belong in Netherlands on RIPE/ARIN.

    Small private geolocation services like MaxMind, IP2Location, etc., are just band-aids compared to the RIPE database. In my opinion, the RIPE database should be edited if that's possible.
    I don't think you will be able to "fix" 45.61.161.1 and 204.10.194.1 (if that's hosted in Europe) as it's an ARIN allocation, but 212.193.3.6 is RIPE and this one may be "fixed".

    Thanked by 1totally_not_banned
  • meow1337meow1337 Member

    @tentor said: I am not Advin representative nor involved into this case.

    Oh okey so this question is answered.

    @Advin said: We don't have any other IPv4 subnets in stock

    Provide customer BYOIP option and reduce the IP cost.

    @CalmDown said: It's the customer's responsibility to read the legal of each provider. You even when sign up, you tick the checkbox and you read & agree.

    I saw the screenshot, he did mentioned the location in chat numerous times. and if this issue represented by Advin that some of his ip blocks dont show germany as location then its Advin responsibility to mention it. yeah T&C is imp to read throughly but frankly who does have enough time. and yeah its OP's Mistake.

  • AdvinAdvin Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 26

    @Mumbly said:

    @Advin said: I'll see if I can get this corrected, though something to note that MaxMind also places our other IPs in Netherlands (45.61.161.1) even though there is no indication that they belong in Netherlands on RIPE/ARIN.

    Small private geolocation services like MaxMind, IP2Location, etc., are just band-aids compared to the RIPE database. In my opinion, the RIPE database should be edited if that's possible.
    I don't think you will be able to "fix" 45.61.161.1 and 204.10.194.1 (if that's hosted in Europe) as it's an ARIN allocation, but 212.193.3.6 is RIPE and this one may be "fixed".

    I believe InterLIR is the maintainer for that subnet since we rent it, which is why we hadn't updated it yet.

    Pretty much the only private and commonly used IP database for those 3 subnets that put it in the wrong geolocation is MaxMind. Once that's resolved, the IPs should properly geolocate. Most services only pull information from third party/private IP databases.

    @hyperblast said:

    @Advin said:

    @zGato said:

    @Advin said:

    @safakb said:
    @Advin He understood and helped me anyway, thank you.
    The main problem here may be that I am uninformed, but I could not guess

    146.19.215.* seems to be servers in nürnberg but ips are kerkade, netherlands.

    I've submitted an update for this one across the major IP databases, it looks like more services place this in Netherlands than Nuremberg. It's an IPXO range, so whatever they put usually overrides our geofeed.

    Thanked by 1hyperblast
  • emghemgh Member

    @Mumbly said: That's a strange and extremely useless suggestion.

    The issue was Cloudflare's GEO detection. If by useless you mean working, you'd be correct.

    Thanked by 1totally_not_banned
  • @meow1337 said: yeah T&C is imp to read throughly but frankly who does have enough time

    The same people who find time to come here to complain.

    @meow1337 said: Advin responsibility to mention it

    Unless directly inquired pre-sale, absolutely not. The provider PROVIDES A SERVICE. If someone never poses the question to the provider, how is the provider supposed to answer it? ESP?

  • MumblyMumbly Member
    edited May 26

    @tentor said:

    @Mumbly said:

    @tentor said: there is no way to provide such guarantees, therefore I have implemented measures to let the (potential) customers know about this policy.

    If we put aside MaxMind and all other small third-party geolocation databases, sorting out a proper RIPE entry should be the first step before you sell the service on a certain location.

    https://apps.db.ripe.net/db-web-ui/query?from=www&searchtext=212.193.3.6

    This is true. What I am talking about are guarantees of proper geolocation by any 3rd parties. I consider it as something not achievable. Therefore I deem it appropriate to mention that fact. Customer does not want to hear nothing about RIPE, MaxMind, etc. They want detection by some specific website, that might use their own databases, older version of known ones, etc. Too much things might go wrong.

    Yeah, that's a modern-day problem. Years ago (or rather, time is running fast..., decade ago), this wasn't an issue at all. Most hosts used IPs from local RIRs (LIRs), but now moving IPs around causes issues.

    There are plenty of hosts that, for example, use ARIN IPs in the RIPE region. While they may be able to set up proper geolocation entries in small private databases like MaxMind or IP2Location, they won't be able to assign those IPs to the RIPE database.

    Even in the case of RIPE IPs, many who rent IPs don't have access to change, for example, NL with DE, especially if they use just part of a subnet at a certain location. It's hard to blame the hosts who are a mercy of resellers for this, but it still causes problems for a certain number of clients.

    In the EU, with so many countries and various local services locked to local ISPs/DCs IPs, there's no guarantee that IP subnets assigned by foreign LIR will work as expected. They most likel won't no matter what you put in MaxMind.
    This is mainly because of all the reselling and moving IPs around, making it harder and harder to get "local" (local as IPs from LIR and proper RIPE location entry) ones.

    I noticed the same trend with almost all, if not all, LET hosts who offer a Japan location. They have either ARIN IPs or APNIC IPs that show in the APNIC database as example .SG or .IN locations instead of .JP

    Life would be much easier if everyone would use small private geolocation databases like MaxMind or IP2Location. However, in reality, only a small portion of the internet uses them. All the bigger players, like Google, Microsoft, Spotify etc., have their own databases, and many others use just the RIR (RIPE) databases.

    You can't really win here unless you use IPs from a local LIR (local ISP/DC).
    I know that, so I have no problem with renting an Advinservers VPS (which I like very much, by the way - @Advin keep up the good work!). But if I weren't aware of that, I would be pretty disappointed the first time I tried to access some DE-locked content.

  • meow1337meow1337 Member

    @Petey_Long said: Unless directly inquired pre-sale

    If you going purely technically like you fighting a law case then we may never find a true solution. he did asked about it on location.

    @Petey_Long said: The same people who find time to come here to complain.

    you have read t&c of last provider line to line? imo most dont do it so that why it was my concern regarding op.

  • nohavpsnohavps Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 26

    I think the provider is helping you in everything that can be done and offered a refund on high-end dedicated servers for the amount, some do not give you the refund because it involves an installation expense, remote hours, I think you should give it the opportunity and wait for it to be updated in the public Whois

  • Petey_LongPetey_Long Member
    edited May 26

    @meow1337 said: If you going purely technically like you fighting a law case then we may never find a true solution. he did asked about it on location.

    Physical Location ≠ GeoIP

    @meow1337 said: you have read t&c of last provider line to line? imo most dont do it so that why it was my concern regarding op.

    Yes, and if you don't you're stupid, especially if you're spending that sort of money.

    Just because people don't read the TOS doesn't make it the provider's problem, in fact, it's the opposite..so I'm not really sure where you're going with that.

    Thanked by 1tentor
  • conceptconcept Member

    In addition like @dataforest mentioned, if you need a german geo located subnet, they can help with that.

  • AltesAltes Member

    If someone is buying a $country server, they are expecting a $country IP. Period.

    There are cases where the customer won't care, but generally speaking, proper IP geolocation is a must. If you can't guarantee that, write it all over the website, and you won't have issues like this..

    Besides, the only reason why they wouldn't get a $country IP is if you are renting IP's from idiots like IPXO, etc. Once again, not the customer's problem. You should be covering the full refund here. But, as usual... LET defending idiots.

  • zGatozGato Member
    edited May 26

    @Altes said:
    If someone is buying a $country server, they are expecting a $country IP. Period.

    There are cases where the customer won't care, but generally speaking, proper IP geolocation is a must. If you can't guarantee that, write it all over the website, and you won't have issues like this..

    Besides, the only reason why they wouldn't get a $country IP is if you are renting IP's from idiots like IPXO, etc. Once again, not the customer's problem. You should be covering the full refund here. But, as usual... LET defending idiots.

    You're actually the idiot here. How can a provider guarantee a geolocation of an IP address when the geolocation companies are not owned by them. There's a shit ton of geolocation providers, you're telling me that the provider must know every single one? Oh, and if 1 specific website geolocates you elsewhere, who's at fault?

    I had this happen with a VPS in Poland with @tentor where Twitch identified me as from the UK, I just shut up and lost my money (thankfully Twitch fixed it) but I won't be going out and bothering every single provider about shit it's out of their control.

    Only RIPE and APNIC (AFAIK) has the country field in the WHOIS, as long as the provider has the right country there, I consider it done. OP had a test IP provided by Advin, it was as easy as googling "cloudflare geolocation provider" and he would've ended up knowing Cloudflare uses Maxmind, then pass that IP to Maxmind, and then before buying telling Advin to fix it or not buy it.

  • AdvinAdvin Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 26

    @Altes said:
    If someone is buying a $country server, they are expecting a $country IP. Period.

    There are cases where the customer won't care, but generally speaking, proper IP geolocation is a must. If you can't guarantee that, write it all over the website, and you won't have issues like this..

    Besides, the only reason why they wouldn't get a $country IP is if you are renting IP's from idiots like IPXO, etc. Once again, not the customer's problem. You should be covering the full refund here. But, as usual... LET defending idiots.

    Hetzner, Contabo, Comcast, Vultr, etc will almost never have accurate geolocation on new IPv4 subnets. Do they list warnings throughout their website about inaccurate geolocation? No.

    Hetzner: https://lowendtalk.com/discussion/174990/hetzner-virginia-ip-address (+ in this thread)
    Contabo: https://www.reddit.com/r/selfhosted/comments/1akq1or/newbie_contabo_vps_geolocation_wrong_is_this/ (+ in this thread)
    Vultr: https://www.reddit.com/r/webhosting/comments/c8el8s/vps_on_vultr_seems_to_have_wrong_geolocation/
    Comcast: https://forums.xfinity.com/conversations/your-home-network/geolocation-wildly-different-all-of-a-sudden/64809a01780f7e2eebd42bfc
    CenturyLink: https://www.centurylink.com/home/help/internet/static-ip-addresses/my-ip-address-shows-the-wrong-location.html
    A2Hosting: https://www.a2hosting.com/kb/getting-started-guide/internet-and-networking/off-shore-ip-addresses/
    AT&T: https://forums.att.com/conversations/att-internet-air-account/incorrect-location-based-on-ip/656f33d74a7482593ab1bf44
    Spectrum: https://www.spectrum.net/support/internet/dynamic-ip-address-geolocation

    Very few of these providers do have knowledgebase articles that point this out, but definitely not written all over their website. Most IP databases did indeed geolocate us correctly to Nuremberg, just not Maxmind which we were not aware of until recently. Server providers (like Hetzner, Contabo, Vultr) are more likely to have incorrect country geolocation because they are global providers who buy IP addresses from others. Similarly, we rent IP addresses that were previously used in other locations, leading to inaccuracies in some IP databases (specifically Maxmind) for a few months or even years until they catch up.

    Thanked by 1RIYAD
  • edited May 26

    @zGato said:
    Only RIPE and APNIC (AFAIK) has the country field in the WHOIS, as long as the provider has the right country there, I consider it done.

    From reading this thread it seems that this isn't the case here though.

    OP had a test IP provided by Advin, it was as easy as googling "cloudflare geolocation provider" and he would've ended up knowing Cloudflare uses Maxmind, then pass that IP to Maxmind, and then before buying telling Advin to fix it or not buy it.

    Still that's also true. Going by the test IP it was clear as day that the IP woudn't have a WHOIS entry pointing to Germany and an investigation into Cloudflares thoughts on it would have been easy too, so i'm kinda 50/50 on the whole thing. I'm not much of a fan of slapping IPs with random WHOIS data onto servers though.

  • rbmaxrbmax Member

    @Altes said:
    If someone is buying a $country server, they are expecting a $country IP. Period.

    There are cases where the customer won't care, but generally speaking, proper IP geolocation is a must. If you can't guarantee that, write it all over the website, and you won't have issues like this..

    Besides, the only reason why they wouldn't get a $country IP is if you are renting IP's from idiots like IPXO, etc. Once again, not the customer's problem. You should be covering the full refund here. But, as usual... LET defending idiots.

    If I buy a domain and point it to my website, I have to expect that it will take some time to work everywhere in the world. I can't say domain provider after few minutes that It doesn't work everywhere as advertised I need refund now.

  • zGatozGato Member

    @totally_not_banned said:
    From reading this thread it seems that this isn't the case here though.

    Yeah, not defending any sides here, just saying. WHOIS of that /24 is still The Netherlands, so @Advin should at least fix that.

    Thanked by 1totally_not_banned
  • MumblyMumbly Member

    @Altes said:
    If someone is buying a $country server, they are expecting a $country IP. Period.

    There are cases where the customer won't care, but generally speaking, proper IP geolocation is a must. If you can't guarantee that, write it all over the website, and you won't have issues like this..

    Besides, the only reason why they wouldn't get a $country IP is if you are renting IP's from idiots like IPXO, etc. Once again, not the customer's problem. You should be covering the full refund here. But, as usual... LET defending idiots.

    I also prefer properly geolocated IPs for my use case, but things have changed a lot in the last few years. I posted it here.

    https://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/3962363/#Comment_3962363

    It's hard for hosts who don't own subnets, as well as for hosts who offer more locations. If you want to be sure about proper geolocation, it's best to buy from a local hosting company/LIR, but this often comes with a price.

    Thanked by 1hyperblast
  • AdvinAdvin Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 26

    @zGato said:

    @totally_not_banned said:
    From reading this thread it seems that this isn't the case here though.

    Yeah, not defending any sides here, just saying. WHOIS of that /24 is still The Netherlands, so @Advin should at least fix that.

    I'll get in touch with our IP providers and correct it with our RIPE subnets, but ARIN subnets are basically locked to US WHOIS unfortunately, and a lot of our EU IPs are from ARIN

    Thanked by 2Mumbly eva2000
  • MumblyMumbly Member

    I must agree with @zGato here. MaxMind, etc., don't matter much to me. They're just one of many privately owned databases.
    A proper RIPE entry (for a subnet from RIPE allocations) does matter. But this isn't always achievable, as hosts who rent IPs may not have access to edit it. They also can't do much with ARIN subnets.

    Thanked by 1zGato
  • conceptconcept Member

    @Advin said:
    I'll get in touch with our IP providers and correct it with our RIPE subnets, but ARIN subnets are basically locked to US WHOIS unfortunately, and a lot of our EU IPs are from ARIN

    Is it possible to just assign your ARIN subnets for your US servers only?

  • AdvinAdvin Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 26

    @concept said:

    @Advin said:
    I'll get in touch with our IP providers and correct it with our RIPE subnets, but ARIN subnets are basically locked to US WHOIS unfortunately, and a lot of our EU IPs are from ARIN

    Is it possible to just assign your ARIN subnets for your US servers only?

    Yes. However, sometimes it can be hard to find RIPE subnets from trustworthy LIRs, hence why we decided to just use ARIN subnets from LIRs back when we got them. If we were to get more subnets now, they would likely be RIPE for EU and ARIN for US.

    Also, most clients don't really mind ARIN vs RIPE, since most IP databases rely on external statistics instead of purely the RIR that subnets are issued from. Most services base their location on private IP databases, which is what most clients care about. The complaint in this thread was about Maxmind not issuing the geolocation properly, which can be fixed if you complain to them. From what I'm aware, most private IP databases usually only base the location off of the RIR if the subnet hasn't been announced anywhere.

    Perhaps setting the country in the WHOIS field can serve as an additional point of verification for more accuracy, but from what I've seen, most services either maintain their own database or rely on MaxMind/IP2Location/etc that do not strictly rely on the RIR.

    Thanked by 1concept
  • @Altes said: If you can't guarantee that, write it all over the website, and you won't have issues like this..

    You wouldn't have any issues if you, as a client, sent a pointed question to the provider before making a purchase. If you talk to the provider BEFORE purchasing a $699/mo server - I promise you, a provider is going to give you the time of day to spin up a test server, make sure it geolocates properly and then the provider will accommodate the client accordingly. It's really that simple.

    I'd love for you to show me an example where a provider states explicitly that "The GeoIP may differentiate from physical location." Surely you wouldn't have brought that up if it wasn't an industry standard - so outside of shitting on Advin for no good reason, please hit us with some links!

  • trewqtrewq Administrator, Patron Provider

    Regardless of the topic at hand here https://geolocatemuch.com/ is worth a read for all prefix owners/network operators.

    Having a geofeed that GeoIP databases can pull in fixes most problems. Attaching the geofeed to your prefix for auto-discovery fixes it even faster.

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