Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!


Lets stop with the assumptions...
New on LowEndTalk? Please Register and read our Community Rules.

All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.

Lets stop with the assumptions...

SpeedyKVMSpeedyKVM Banned, Member

I can always count on LET for some drama, guesses, and bs.

Previous invoice was paid:
(10/15/2013 - 11/14/2013)

That's service through 11/14/2013. Next invoice was due by 11/15/2013 at 00:01AM. Services shutdown at 11/16/2013 at 11:59AM CST (36 hours after overdue).

We have a strict prepayment policy, like an air pump at a gas station. Our policies allow for shutdown of services when an account is past due. However we're human and give the courtesy of shutting down a day or two after at noon CST, just as we did in this case.

If anyone wants to work for free and gracefully shutdown all overdue servers for us that's awesome, until then we'll keep using the automated "shut down services" button which does an ipmi shutdown and reset.

So lets all take a chill pill and stop with the crazy name calling and guessing games.

Regards,
Gordon

«134

Comments

  • That's fine and all, but you kind of screwed up my data and Fliphost's data too... Personally, I think both of you are in the wrong.. You should have given more "grace" time and they should have paid their bills on time. We're all humans, we make mistakes I can count plenty of times i've been 3+ days late on bills. It happens.

    You have a great network, don't get me wrong. But after this, if I ever need a dedicated server/colocation I won't be buying from you. You've screwed me over.

  • ...which post is this referring to?

  • aglodekaglodek Member
    edited November 2013

    Always nice to hear the other side of the story. You could choose a better title for this thread, though ;)

  • skybucks100skybucks100 Member
    edited November 2013

    @JerryHou said:
    ...which post is this referring to?

    Judging by the overdue bills and name calling, Fliphost.

    lowendtalk.com/discussion/16698/fliphost-net-down

  • SpeedyKVMSpeedyKVM Banned, Member
    edited November 2013

    @skybucks100 said:
    I can count plenty of times i've been 3+ days late on bills. It happens.

    We can agree that we're not the host for you then :) But sorry to hear.

    Regards,
    Gordon

  • Awmusic12635Awmusic12635 Member, Host Rep

    The issue was our fault - That thread got way out of control

    Thanked by 1jcaleb
  • Hmmmmmm so @Incero you are breaking your privacy policy and releasing client info?

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2013

    @Incero said:
    I can always count on LET for some drama, guesses, and bs.

    So, should I take it that people on LET are not welcome there ?
    It feels this way over here and it would be cool if you would come up and say it clearly.
    This saga costs us a lot of time, if you want us out, please say so directly and save us all some time.

  • @Spencer said:
    Hmmmmmm so Incero you are breaking your privacy policy and releasing client info?

    In a sense, unless Fliphost said it was ok:

    It is our policy not to use or share the personal information about Visitors or Members in ways unrelated to those described in this Policy without also providing you an opportunity to opt out or otherwise prohibit such unrelated uses.

    Unless it was to protect themselves..? (Ya, i'm not a lawyer...)

  • @Incero
    There is a soft shutdown option in IPMI, also why don't you just disable switch ports rather than a full shutdown?

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    @ChrisK said:
    Incero
    There is a soft shutdown option in IPMI, also why don't you just disable switch ports rather than a full shutdown?

    They probably wanted to save on power, it takes time to shutdown and only disable the switch does not stop the power drain.
    Note that the issue of shutting down all servers for non-payment of one was ignored completely.
    Then, who's fault it is that the guessing "and BS" game continues ?

  • @Maounique said:
    Then, who's fault it is that the guessing "and BS" game continues ?

    Last time I checked Incero is at CoreXChange which charges on a per circuit basis, which means he pays the same whether he uses 0% or 80% of the circuit.

  • concerto49concerto49 Member
    edited November 2013

    We apologized and stopped replying when drama started. If there was a problem, it should have been resolved privately. A public conclusion/clarification can be posted after.

    This sadly starts more drama. For it to stop, will not be saying any more.

    Just to note that we did not call anyone any names. Those were other posters.

    I do hope that customer relationships can be improved as issues should be resolved privately.

  • ryanarpryanarp Member, Patron Provider

    Maounique said: Note that the issue of shutting down all servers for non-payment of one was ignored completely.

    I am confused as to the issue of this, TOS/AUP clearly states that is how things are done. In the very first sentence about invoicing. Seems silly that this is a question when it is so clearly defined.

    INVOICING
    To keep our costs and prices low our billing system and service suspension system is largely automated. Services are prepaid, and failure to make payment will result in account (all services) suspension.

  • DarwinDarwin Member
    edited November 2013

    Don't get me wrong, I think that what you did wasn't wrong, but I really fail to understand how this post is doing any good PR to you.

    The original post died a few hours ago and everyone who saw the drama knew it was fliphost fault. So why ressurect it?

    I don't think LET is the only part that likes some drama :)

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2013

    @ryanarp said:
    TOS/AUP clearly states that is how things are done

    ToS/AUP of many providers state that they can kick anyone for any reason they see fit or for no reason at all, yet that doesnt happen very often, it is there for the people that are deemed undesirable.
    At least this is how i read it.
    There is one thing to have the legal right to do something and another to do it.
    But, okay, you had the right to corrupt data, it is in the ToS and you had 36 hours patience to wait for the payment, Fliphost admitted it also, everything is clear now.

  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    @Maounique said:
    But, okay, you had the right to corrupt data

    So, you are tellinh me that if I stop paying the invoices for my vps with you, it will still stay online for ever?

    Stop dreaming, you can not make up rules as you go.

    Thanked by 1ryanarp
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2013

    MikHo said: So, you are tellinh me that if I stop paying the invoices for my vps with you, it will still stay online for ever?

    Nope, we keep it for 2-3 days, then we suspend it (shutdown) and only terminate after some 7-10 days even when we are hard pressed to release stock.
    There is also extensive reminding (one a day until suspension).
    The customer we have is more valuable than the one we could have.
    In no way shape or form are we retaliating, customers with more VPSes have only the one late on payment suspended, the data is safely preserved in case of suspension, we do not charge late fees, we do not forbid people with unpaid invoices order again, it is much more expensive to get an abuser than keep someone who has 3 days of free service.
    But this is not the policy in other places, I completely agree with that.
    When you get high setup fees and you cannot deliver on the promises you made in exchange, you start to look for reasons to terminate the agreement, that is also completely understandable from a human point of view, but not from the business point of view, you could get much more revenue with a nice attitude, imo 2-3 k a month is much more than 2-3 k one time fee, even if you couldnt care less for the customer and his country of origin.

  • DomainBopDomainBop Member
    edited November 2013

    The customer we have is more valuable than the one we could have.

    That's true for businesses in every industry. The one exception where new customers are more valuable is struggling low end providers who rely on annual payment offers to meet their short term operating expenses. (and that strategy usually leads to the deadpool) :P

    See the "Facts about customer retention and churn facts" section here for some interesting stats: http://returnonbehavior.com/2010/10/50-facts-about-customer-experience-for-2011/

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2013

    DomainBop said: That's true for businesses in every industry.

    Well, trust me it is not always so. In theory, I agree, I am an Economist I know the theory all too well, but there are many businesses where the new customer is more important than the one they have.
    For example, if you make promises you cannot keep while charging high setup fees, it is more important to have a high turn-over, you make more from setup fees than from the actual business.
    Another example is when you offer a good contract but on long term with high penalties for leaving which is similar to high setup fees, but they are paid at leaving.
    I met one company here (in Romania) which had a big ratio lawyer/actual employees and a small customer base, their business model was to impose high penalties for leaving and terms that cannot allow you to send a proper cancellation note 60 days before or the contract would renew with same penalties.
    Those are not technically scams and you should read the contract you sign, it is just a different business model, one that uses the law to make money, patent trolls are not illegal either, actually they base all their business model on exploiting the law.
    ToS is similar with the law and a part of the contract, any business can use it any way they like, it is how they use it that makes the difference for the customer.
    Lawyers can make the difference for your business, even if you do not have a sustainable business model, with good law departments you can make huge profits, this is why lawyers make so much money, their services are very profitable if intelligently used.

  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    @Maounique said:

    So what you are saying is that you would do the same thing as Incero did.
    Follow your TOS and shut the non-paying client down.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2013

    No, I am saying that we do not retaliate in case of a non-paying customer.
    We do not punish anyone by killing all services, whether paid or not, we give 2 or 3 days depending on company free service and we keep the data at least 10 days in total.
    The difference is also that we value existing customers more than new ones, but it is true we also have no steep setup fees and we dont promise what we cant offer, if that happens, though, through events we cannot control the customer is reimbursed in full, not try to look for reasons in our ToS to shut them off.
    There are many more differences, tons more, but most people here know that very well, I wont be preaching to the choir.
    I am out.

  • ryanarpryanarp Member, Patron Provider

    @maounique Just curious is there a reason you are going on and on about this. We get it, you do things differently and that is great. He runs his business the way he wants, and you run your business the way you want. You keep saying "retaliation" and "punish" and how you do neither, however you just said that you suspend and eventually terminate non-paying customers. So lets drop the drama and move on.

    We get it, you have beef with Incero, then take it up with Incero. Write a ticket explaining your concerns. Explain how your business works and what you need to continue a business relationship. If after fully explaining your concerns and there doesn't seem to be a reasonable resolution then you have all the information you need to make your next decision. Even if you have already done this it doesn't hurt to give it another try.

    Thanked by 2Nekki 0xdragon
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2013

    As I said, I am out, wanted only to disprove the accusations that we proceed as Incero:

    MikHo said: So what you are saying is that you would do the same thing as Incero did

    Now that is done, it is clear for everyone we do not, therefore I am out as long as you wish to let the thread sink, if you continue to attack me I will reply.
    The OP launched a general attack against all LET people and personal experience seems to confirm he does not like us therefore i asked if Incero is off-limits in general or just for some people here. There was no answer on that, but I learned not to expect one.

  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    @maounique
    You snipped the important part of my quote in you latestd post. The part about following the TOS.

    I rest my case.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    Nope.

     We are entitled without warning to deduct default interest on all overdue payments as indicated on the invoices.
    
    If the client is a consumer/end-user, the amount of interest charged will be 5 percentage points above the base rate. If the client is a contractor/business, the interest charged will be 8 percentage points above the base rate.
    We are also entitled, in case of default payments, to block the internet presence of the customer and to block all other functions.
    All payment aren't refundable. 
    

    We are entitled to do all those, but we do not, we provide refunds too, we do, eventually, terminate the VM/hosting, but not all services the customer has, we do not charge late fees and we refund no questions asked, even if the customer changed his mind later but we do deduct fees with the handling of the money.

    So either:
    1. You didnt read our ToS (quite possible, most people dont);
    2. You imply that shutting down a client on the service he is late on payment on is equivalent to corrupting data on all services if one is overdue.
    If you continue to attack me, I will continue to reply and you wont like it, so, better let it down as it fell. Almost everyone here knows the differences.

  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    yet again you fail to understand my point. Incero has no interest in YOUR TOS. They follow theirs and there is nothing you can do about it.
    If you chose to follow your own TOS or not is not my concern and of no interest to this discussion.

    Maounique said: So either:

    1. You didnt read our ToS (quite possible, most people dont);
    2. You imply that shutting down a client on the service he is late on payment on is equivalent to corrupting data on all services if one is overdue.
    If you continue to attack me, I will continue to reply and you wont like it, so, better let it down as it fell. Almost everyone here knows the differences.

    1. Is of no interest in this discussion.
    2. possible data corruption is a side-effect of shutting the service down.

    as @ryanarp said: How other run their business is not of your concern. You can suggest changes but it's their business and they can run it the way they want.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2013

    You accused us of proceeding the same as Incero did.
    I proved that is far from the truth.
    The end.

  • Well good guy provider will be loved more by customer. Just saying.

  • prometeusprometeus Member, Host Rep

    @ryanarp said:
    Write a ticket explaining your concerns. Explain how your business works and what you need to continue a business relationship. If after fully explaining your concerns and there doesn't seem to be a reasonable resolution then you have all the information you need to make your next decision. Even if you have already done this it doesn't hurt to give it another try.

    I'm an old (in Internet Age only!) Italian guy which believe more on personal relationship. I liked the exchange I had with Gordon and tought to have found the right partner for the long term.

    I was going forward as planned, I wrote Gordon some concern about some tickets and I suspect it took them personally (the fact I'm bad with English doesn't help either) then things went south, the help I asked in the beginning was refused, I gave up.

    If Gordon, which should receive a notify from this comment, want to write me, I'm open to start again, I had (and have) good intentions, some money to spend and the need of a partner willing to help. I cant guarantee I will be a large client, business is not predictable, but we can try.

    S.

    Thanked by 3Dylan jcaleb Maounique
Sign In or Register to comment.