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I said it mainly to make sure that we both see it this way.
As corollary, though, we can expect that Katie will act like a marketing person on LET, so it shouldn't be a surprise if she acts like one.
Okay, you still say that "Hetzner's new offer is significant and should not sink." Let's just add to this for explicitness that Hetzner's new offer is a thread on LET. (See below.)
Again, in the context of LET, Hetzner's new offer is (the first post of) a thread on LET, a thread that the LET community deems so significant that the thread is not allowed to sink, a decision that you support. Nevertheless, you now want to question "why Hetzner is allowed to (ab)use LET as a harvesting support desk." For me, the distinction that you're trying to draw here doesn't make practical sense in this context. The way I see it, LET is implicitly encouraging Hetzner/Katie to (ab)use LET as a harvesting support desk. How would you even disallow this if you allow their thread to begin with and then don't even allow the thread to sink? It just seems to me that it's an impractical distinction that you want to draw in this context.
No problem with the cloud/machine distinction. I'm also a machine person, and I like netcup (I've said so before).
@angstrom
Simple: The Hetzner offer is significant and discussions on and around it should be welcome and supported on LET.
At the same time, Hetzner should not be allowed to run a harvesting support desk here.
Hetzner customers, no matter whether they happen to also be LET users, should use Hetzners site and so should Hetzner themselves (in particular Katie). Btw I don't have any doubt that Hetzners site offers all the necessary instruments; in fact, I assume that they have a good help (and sales support) desk. While I clearly dislike their harvesting attitude and actions here, I am in no way opposed to that company and, in fact, assume that it's otherwise a fine and professional company.
Okay.
But, concretely, what does it mean for them "to run a harvesting support desk here"?
Look at it this way. Hetzner/Katie post an offer thread on LET. LET deems this offer thread so significant that it is decided that the offer thread shouldn't sink. So far, you're in complete agreement with this.
But then, what happens? LET members ask Katie questions related to the offer in that thread. Should Katie not be allowed to reply to those questions? If she's not allowed to reply, why in the world should LET not allow that thread to sink? Just because of the deemed significance of the offer? If she's allowed to reply, should her replies be first approved by a LET moderator before they appear? Should LET members not be allowed to ask questions in that thread? If not, then it's just thread with an offer and nothing else. If LET members are allowed to ask questions, isn't it good if these questions are answered?
No one doubts that Hetzner has a ticketing system, but it's nevertheless a common and accepted practice on LET for providers to try to answer questions in connection with offers that they make in the respective offer threads. As far as I can tell, LET members even consider this to be a good thing.
Katie's presence has been helpful here and I'm glad she is around. I don't think she's "harvesting" or spamming us. She's doing a good job answering questions about Hetzner's products and policies, referring more technical topics to other people in the company, and in some cases helping people get problems with accounts or tickets straightened out, no different than what anyone else from any other hosting company does who posts here.
Unsinking that thread was the right thing to do, given how many other threads had also been started about the same product, the amount of discussion in it from a wide range of people. It took on a life of its own and became a community-driven thread rather than a provider-driven one. So it should be treated like any other community thread. I don't think there was any issue of Hetzner being somehow special.
I'm not entirely certain about this. :-)
I might be willing to accept this reasoning, but then I would probably suggest moving the thread from Offers to General with no artificial floating of the thread.
I think it is better than a marketing professional be a proxy between engineering and the masses here on LET.
I don't mind waiting a day for a reply, to questions, that I don't want to bump their support queue for.
Plus, it acts as a knowledge dump via Google index and drives traffic to LET.
@angstrom
Sorry, either wrong or a misunderstanding. I see no problem with Katie answering offer related pre-sales questions. In fact, I welcome those because it helps to get a clearer picture of the product(s).
But that is not all. There's meanwhile a lot of "I can't buy", problems with the panel, account not or too slowly created, etc. It's these I'm talking and complaining about and it's these that I call harvesting support.
How does routing to West EU compare with Netcup over Hetzner?
Well, if that is the ultimate issue, then we're at the level of specific posts made by specific LET members in that thread. I wouldn't blame Katie/Hetzner for such posts. If one wanted to filter such posts out, then it would have to be via heavy moderation, which no one is likely to be in favor of, largely for practical reasons.
Once we allow for providers to reply to questions regarding their offers, it becomes tricky to circumscribe to LET members exactly what they're allowed to ask regarding the offers.
@bsdguy
I've been harsh on Hetzner comparing them to not a proper cloud solution like DigitalOcean, or better yet Amazon prime model of what a cloud should be. However, you can't ignore the truly amazing 2.49 euros a month for 2 gb instance, or hourly charge of .004 euro cents that Hetzner has given us. No where does Hetzner tells you that you need to pay for 6 months prepaid like Netcup has done. A cloud offering should allow you to scale up or down, with the ability to destroy instances when you are done, and get charged by the hour. Netcup is nowhere near there, they are a massive joke now that Hetzner has their cloud offering per HOUR with no 6 months upfront.
Honestly, I feel like your assumption that Hetzner copied Netcup is completely erroneous. I believe is the other way around, Netcup is seeing their final days written in stone due to Hetzner strong cloud offering. Given the fact that both companies are in Germany, and are pretty much comparing for the same market segment, Netcup is lagging behind massively.
I see very reason for people to choose Netcup over Hetzner, why would they when they could go with Hetzner cheap cloud servers , with 0 upfront and can launch 10 minimum instances right away.
Oh and by the way, nobody truly gives a fuck that Kathy is "harvesting support" or what ever you want to call it. You are delusional if you think a massive company like Hetzner is going to send their top technical/product guy/gal to talk to LET and answer all of the questions they have.
I'm truly happy we have at least Katie answering questions and helping out LET members, and is ludicrous to compare @cociu with Hetzner. You can't compare 2 companies whose 1 of them depends on LET for a living and the other is helping out more the LET community than they are helping themselves out.
Hetzner opened up the free beta cloud offering to LET members, free vps for some lucky LET members, has @cociu given away free vps to as many members as Hetzner did? No , I don't think so.
Hetzner is helping this small community grow massively, especially if they keep coming here using the LET community as ground zero for testing all of their major products before going production.
@IAlwaysBeCoding
What a pile of bullshit.
"assumption that Hetzner copied Netcup is completely erroneous" - that assumption wasn't made. I merely explained that I think that both were working on a cloud offer (whatever each one meant with "cloud"), that both look like being pushed out somewhat early and that it might well be that netcup would have been first and Hetzner rushed their offer out so as to be first. Nowhere did I say that one copied the others product.
"nobody truly gives a fuck that Kathy is "harvesting support" - is that so? I have doubts. some other providers were slapped for abusing LET as support desk, so that seems not to be my weird dream but official LET rules.
"2 companies whose 1 of them depends on LET for a living" - well, the reality is that Hetzner offered their product here while we haven't heard of new HS offers since quite some time now. (Well noted, I don't mind at all that Hetzner made their current offer and I even publicly lauded it).
"Hetzner is helping this small community grow massively" - Pardon me but that's obviously idiotic. For a start, Hetzner - like every sane company - isn't acting here to help LET grow but to fucking create revenue. Moreover you might want to wait for some results before making statements like the above; or do you have facts and numbers to confirm your bold dream-statement?
As a matter of fact I did laud Hetzners offer and I did speak positively about Katies pre sales support. The only thing I complain about is that she also abuses LET as help desk. I can understand that that looks convenient for some users, both in the Hetzner, in HS, and in other cases but LET is no providers helpdesk, at least not beyond the occasional question.
I advise you to activate your brain the next time you feel like attacking me and learn to recognize what someone actually says.
Troll vs. Curmudgeon
loving this .... thanks guys!
edit to add my three cents:
Thinking about it a bit more, netcup's prepay requirement in and of itself is not too onerous as far as amount of € required to spin up a single server (compare with Prometeus and Ikoula cloud for example - you have to pony up a few € to start playing).
comparing netcup's effort with Hetzner's new cloud billing framework draws a more stark contrast however.
I did raise an eyebrow or two in response to the tone of the initial post from @bsdguy critiquing Katie / Hetzner marketing on LET. To me, it's been really a rather reasonable, respectful, and welcome presence so far. Maybe I'm just a sucker for marketing.
I do like to see other perspectives but would encourage some self-reflection on how criticism can appear to be mostly axe-grinding and ego-tripping. (Should take my own advice and endeavor to ... refrain ... resist ... suppress strong urge to poke at @OftenBeTrolling for overall negative impression made in other posts - actually find self appreciating their comments in this thread though, so ... ah, Will Not Feed!)
Speculating on whether netcup was actually planning hourly cloud before Hetzner's beta test some months ago .... well that seems to be quite a stretch given facts currently in evidence, as far I can tell.
all things considered, it's good to see netcup stepping up to the plate with some nod to "hourly" pricing - hopefully they will iterate on their execution and do well with it.
Well, obviously you are the troll. But kindly take note that I did and would not call IAlwaysBeCoding "Curmudgeon". Thanks anyway.
You have a clever way of changing the meaning of your words after
@bsdguy Awwww how cute! You merely explained!? Just own it up and say that is what you believe, or think if you want to use a weaker affirmative verb because you want to talk wish-washy to me.
You can't compare LET small leeches providers like Hostsolutions like Hetzner. Two different companies, one lacks the ability to write a coherent English sentence, the other has a global presence and is known among many big hitters.
LET is going through a transformation stage, it is attracting more and more visitors/users and they are gravitating to a handful of companies now. Hetzner opening an account here, even if it's controlled by a marketing agent, means a lot to this community. Nobody truly cares if a vps is down with Hostsolutions hosting because in reality hardly anybody uses them outside this forum. By the same token you can't treat Hetzner like Hostsolutions because if somebody is having a problem with Hetzner vps/cloud, there is a huge chance 10's or 100's more are going to have the same problem.
That attracts search traffic and brings them here, does Hostsolutions attracts traffic like Hetzner? I don't think so.
No shit Sherlock, isn't that what Hostsolutions is doing as well. The problem here is that nobody wants to admit and call all of the other small LET providers leeches of this community, they leech onto the user base that LET provides for their offers but hardly give anything back. Hetzner provide more than what many small LET providers are doing for the LET community.
Hetzner is going to do great things here I can already feel it in the air. Their initial cloud offering has been well received here, just look at the god damn reaction is like the Jesus of Hosting has just arrived.
@bsdguy you are just nit-picking on non-sense bullshit and backtracking on everything that you just say. I'm not sure if your brain is playing games on you, or if you are just writing long ass paragraphs going around beating around the bush and not being sure about a word that you are saying.
I advise you to be real and speak your damn mind, and stop backtracking on what you are saying. I was just "merely explaining" lol.
@bsdguy - I do wear a troll hat from time to time ... still working on my curmudgeon badge!
Likewise, thanks for the perspective. It's good food for thought, even if I may disagree.
That's where I stopped reading. So you really think you know better than me what I believe and really wanted to say?
You are obviously mentally deranged and "think" that wanton interpreting what I "really meant" can somehow replace the reality? Listen, idiot, it's in the public; everybody can read what I said.
Moreover you see yourself in a position to educate me and to tell me how to act? Thanks for the big laugh - oh and see a psychiatrist! Soon!
Great derail.
Let's start a GoFundMe page to get some LET-sponsored group therapy sessions. I think we've all got some shit to work out
Okay, let's take 2 steps back, because we have gone off the rails into this back-and-forth friendly discussion. Perhaps... it wasn't quite as soft as I thought it would be my first opening post that was addressed to you, not sure how you ended up taking it as offensive or a form of attack when I pretty much used words like "Honestly, I feel like your assumption".
Notice how I never said "@bsdguy what the fuck are you talking about?" but spoke to you with a politer tone, even though you replied to me with a much harsher done starting with the first sentence "what a pile of bullshit".
I don't like how you can be such a hypocrite and nit-pick on Hetzner "harvesting support" actions while at the same time introducing an offer that has blown up past 500+ comments in the past 2-3 days.
You believe Hetzner is doing more of a harm than what you and your buddies @WSS, @Nekki do derailing almost every single other thread with your sexually homophobic depraved comments you guys do every other day. Isn't derailing a thread against the rules as well? Why don't you nit-pick on that?
You have a company like Hetzner that has acted extremely professional, responded to almost every single query that most LET members have asked them here. In return, you start bitching about the "special treatment" that Hetzner is getting, and ignoring the "special treatment" we allow members such as you @WSS, @Nekki and a few others get for talking about non-sense bullshit that has nothing to do with hosting. Hetzner brings traffic and more users to this forum, the shit that you and your buddies pull drives people away from this forum.
Look at the thread:https://www.lowendtalk.com/discussion/136168/lots-of-cloud-for-little-money-hetzner-online-redefines-cloud-hosting#latest
Tell me how many members there you see that barely post on this forum, but are now posting because of this tremendous offer. You are only thinking about your buddies and yourself, not about the hundreds if not thousands of other members who don't come to LET to engage in your shenanigans, they come here for hosting deals. Now, you are basically saying, you are not okay with this, you want Hetzner to not allow LET to grow as a community because you want to nit-pick on rules that benefit practically no one.
Your tears are delicious.
@IAlwaysBeCoding: Only yesterday, I thought that you were skeptical of Hetzner as the LET-messiah (like I am), but today, your tone is different. Have you converted?
Who’s proclaimed Hetzner the LET-messiah?
I said that I don't believe is the true cloud solution like Amazon or DigitalOcean, but they are cute enough that I want to try them. I have just increased my limit to 30 on Hetzner, for a test cluster I plan on doing.
The big cloud hitters aren't going to use them yet, but as a LET guy I was very tempted of using them to see what's all the fuss about. Basically, I was merely arguing about the features they provided, not that they shouldn't be allowed to offer their offers because of some bullshit LET rule people are nit-picking over. In fact, they should be welcomed with open arms here, because their features and price range is exactly what the average LET guy is looking for.
However, I have never argued or explicitly said that Hetzner was abusing LET rules, not at all. I don't care about that, because even if it's not a proper DigitalOcean or Amazon solution, what they are offering this forum is great. They are sort of rejuvenating the forum and offering more than what a lot of users that have been here for years have done.
There are two groups of people on LET the sexually deranged lunatics that post sexually homophobic comments back and forth to each other, and the other group that is here to:
The first group doesn't help drive the numbers here, the second group is what drives this forum forward. So, why are we nit-picking on a provider that is driving more users of the second kind here, that I have no idea why people would care.
You missed the third group, who get triggered at the littlest thing and take LET far too seriously, weeping delicious tears of keyboard rage whilst wishing they were in group one, chatting casually about nasal penetration and people being killed by horse-bummings.
That's just rumour though. That anyone died.
LET is serious.
Did you miss that thread? Perforated arsehole.
I’d say at least he died doing what he loved, but I don’t think that applies when you’ve just had your rectum annihilated by a (presumably) quite distressed horse.
Accepted. I read and respond.
I simply said what I thought based on what I saw. "bullshit".
There. It starts again. You are talking about your strange and weird perceptions of what I said - not about what I actually said.
Inter alia
... and then, among many other things I mentioned one (1) negative thing about how Hetzner/Katie are merely harvesting here and should not do support here (other than pre-sales). I even explicitely mentioned that I consider them a professional company and that I assume that they have everything needed for good support in place.
I have a hard time even imagining how you could possibly think that I'm nitpicking on Hetzner or disliking them or the like.
Again, pure and very weird "interpretation" from your side. In FACT I did not at all say anything to that effect.
You think I'm an asshole? Perfectly fine with me. Just skip all of my posts and feel better.
I could again elaborate the gross divergence between what you feel and what reality is (incl. evidence) but I won't. Instead I'll limit myself to addressing only one idiocy of you:
WHEN-fucking-ever who-fucking-ever puts an insanely (for the super sensitive: "extremely attractive and uncommly") low priced offer here, people from all over the place come up and ask questions and talk about that offer. I didn't count exact numbers but I dare to say that the numbers now and when (the so much detested and belittled by you) cociu offered insanely low priced storage VPSs were about the same, at least in the same ballpark.
If tomorrow [insert whichever halfway credible provider] offered anything at considerably lower prices the same would happen. Yes, Katie answered to a lot of questions and she did that professionally and always politely - however, that doesn't make Hetzner a god-like super-entity and benefactor of LET. One can interpret that positively but one can interpret that negatively as well.
TL;DR: See a psychiatrist. I mean it. You are discussing against chimera you yourself created in your head, against things that I simply didn't say.
As for oh so evil @WSS, @Nekki, and myself : Oh well, it will be hard, really hard but I dare to think that the three of us will find a way to somehow live without your acceptance and love. OK, granted, I'm wildly guessing here wrt to the other two. But I'm nice and waiting for the actual fact before I blame the suicide of one of us on you. Don't worry, you can dislike me anyway
Oh, @Nekki, since when do you take me so seriously?!
I'll put all of this down as conversion. (It's okay. :-) )