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Wasn't there a final post and a close from Spirit here?
+1
So you can exclude me, i dont actuvely watch who posts offrs etc. So serverian didnt publicly expose/name and shame anyone. And for that providers users who come to this forum they should know how and what the provider is up too...
You are right, its frustrating. But with a healthy community and without evidence a user will br shot down instantly..here we got the unhealthy habbit to distrust any cc host without prior evidence. @jbiloh
yeah allot of prior drama...
So instead of naming an individual use the ordering ip instead if you chose to go this route. Ip's arent personal information and can very rarely directed to a specific individual/company. But you still provide a warning to other providers who can simply check the ip.. leaving the rest of us unaware pf the abuser
In consultation with another staff member has been decided to let it open for now as this is still interesting topic for discussion.
I'm that other staff member. We actually had quite a discussion about this and both felt this should be allowed to be discussed more. I could have opened a thread about this myself and reignited the discussion, but since it's already here...
So, back on-topic, LET-style ;-)
Lets try this again as my comment was deleted by @spirit for being "off-topic" for pointing out that the tread opener has requested that this thread be closed. Looks like closing the thread is on topic as these comments were not deleted either
Would you care to point out other threads that have been denied closing when the OP requested it. I know there are a few when cases have not been resolved, but all this will end up being is a wich hunt. Then again we love popcorn and drama. So I guess that is valid reason for keeping this thread opened.
As for this thread I think it is great that it has been reported on Fraud Record. This is a double standard that can only be fixed by having respect for your provider and your provider having respect for you as a customer.
I think providers should stop whining about not being able to name clients who don't pay or charge back. You are not the only business out there that looses money due to this. Many providers can't even call themselves a business anyway.
If you choose to operate in a market where the costs of bad clients that charge back outweigh the amounts paid then move out or up away from them.
That aside, I don't see the point of the discussion. When you see negative threads about providers it is in most cases with good reason but even when it's not the complaint is from a paying customer who is not getting the service they expect and feels justified raising the issue. How can you compare that with someone who does a charge back but never posts about it?
For many it's a chat with your neighbour, friend or whoever about bad service from company X, but with hosting most are online, part of communities like this and as a result it's where the discussions are likely to place, duh!
If it was about that then why the effort to point out specifics about the client involved? Seems to me like you wanted to not so much name and shame but shame at least.
Honestly, that's not the reason. Read my comment above. If everybody insists on closing this topic, I could do it. It will just result in me opening a new topic about this anyway, just not bearing a provider's name as the OP. I mean, this is something that should be discussed and @serverian's posts just proves the fact that it's a common thing providers face. It's not something that should be kept out of public eyes. I honestly thought you would have understood this. /me shrugs
Topic closing requests are usually for cases where there's a problem to be resolved. This is not such a case. This is a topic that invites people to discuss this situation (and not who has done what), which is why I personally feel it shouldn't be closed. I even applaud @serverian to state it's not about naming the one that "did it", but about the case in general.
Just thought I'd chime in here, as I imagine many people have been under the impression that I am the person being discussed here. Especially for those who are aware of the current situation regarding abuse from customers of VPN.sh.
So to clear the air a little:
I do not have a business partner.
I've not had any DDoS attacks. I've never charged back.
I see that many people have figured out that it's not related to myself, but I just thought I'd clarify before people start getting the wrong impression.
and damn, in all honesty, I seriously thought that it was you due to the recent issues that I've read at email. Sorry bout that
I do not understand how providers can think that they should be able to share client info. Does this mentality come directly as one becomes a "business-owner" or first when one comes into some money?
Those companies who think they should be able to publicly discuss their clients identities should do so, and show how much they lack quality and how much their ethics and business practices are "low end", not just their prices or specs. In the end, it will just ruin their reputation and show their lack of professionalism.
There could be scammers. That happens in any business. This business at hand can at many times be "international trade" as provider and client can be in different countries. Even though this might be the case, there are legal ways, if there are illegal activities on clients' side, providers can go to law; not do online vigilante justice by attempting to start a lynch mob by publicly shaming people.
Have more security for new signups, more verification if you want. It's your job to make sure you don't get scammed. If you were a North African salt exporter, and I wanted to buy millions of dollars worth salt from you, there would be some ways to secure the transaction. You wouldn't send me the salt before I paid you, I wouldn't pay you full without receiving some salt etc.
You go in all blind, don't check anything, but you either are not a big enough company that can handle some scams here and there, in which case you'll end up getting deadpooled with help from natural selection, or you're too weak a company/person to handle what running a business feels like.
I cannot believe my eyes as I read more and more supportive posts and many "thanks" to those; everyone is provider-rights oriented!
Disregard.
@mpkossen - I agree it is a good point for discussion, and my attempt to establish lines would be....
If a provider does you wrong and does not refund or other wise make good, you should be able to call them out.
If a provider does you wrong and refunds you the balance of your time, you should not be able to call them out.
If a customer does whatever that you as a provider feel you don't like and does not charge back or depute, you should not be able to call him out.
If a customer uses your services and then does not pay or disputes a past payment, you should be able to call him out.
The issue for me is not what is done with the service, it is more a question of does a complaining party have actual damages or not.
I would hope that there is a higher level of maturity needed by a provider to call someone out, if only because you are the one getting paid, and the customer is the one paying, When a charge back is done by the customer that metric goes away.
This does not mean I think it is ok to publish private details of customer or provider in a public forum, but using forum names is fine.
Just my 2 cents.
EDIT: @dhamaniasad - You really believe that is what is going on? As a customer I am a guest in you house? Priceless.
As a common reader of this forum, I do not know whom @serverian is talking about. In many cases I know you guys are bashed daily from left to right. The only thing I can say is do your best and people will eventually notice. Many of the providers here I have talked to for hours and they are amazing. Talking about you @Francisco, @ryanarp, @Bluevm, @jarland, @seriesn <-- Miss you bro, come back.
However, there are other times I wish to just yell at people for being so idiotic and hurtful, like @shovenose. My god man, you hurt so many people. Just please shut up, it is for your own good.
However, in many ways I'm very glad I do now know whom all these people are, I might explode. Especially at the person running the teen porn site. So just to put it out there, shaming a customer could end up bad as I might go a little insane and beat the living crap out of someone because of the horrible things they do.
In the past 3 years of running my gaming network, I know some very sad stories, and it is heart breaking. I also know of people whom publicly bash me and I have done both bashing, and ignoring. I will have to admit, ignoring is the best policy. Bashing just leads to trouble, and people wont believe you at times.
I think in many ways we all need to write a review today on the hosts we appreciate.
Mun
I completely agree, honestly in my opinion I think a new topic that isn't bearing a providers name would be ideal. With this current thread there are so many specific variables that lend itself to calling people out along the way. Just felt ideally since the request was made on this thread, a new one could be made with less specifics and more open for discussion. Either way I am fine with decision made to keep this open, I was just curious on the why not another thread?
@serverian - Do you use MaxMind? Chargebacks are something they consider for their fraud detection. Definitely worth reporting the client.
As an advertiser on Lowendtalk we need to clarify that we are not the company being discussed here.
but shovehost publicly admits to being a dick, if he hadn't, nobody would know and hosts couldn't say anything. I think that's the point serverian is trying to make
Surely you'd know if you had charged back to one Serverians companies and had DDoS attacks and such..
Actually that was another host that he attacked that posted about him.
Mun
That was an example. I am not saying a customer is a guest in my house.
(I know this isn't properly formatted and all, and I know I did not use proper examples)
I was only trying to explain this situation in a different context. It was an example, that's all it is. You are not interpreting me correctly, but that was bound to happen, since I knew I hadn't formatted the post properly, and used incorrect examples.
<< Removed - Please read LET Policy >>
@dhamaniasad - No problem cutting you some slack.
Although when providers offer their personal opinions about their relations with customers it offers insight into who they are, and what can be expected from them. I am also sure that cuts both ways
If you have a child like mentality like this then there is no convincing you either way. If you are to be considered a professional business person you will take the responsible route and not lower yourself to that level.
The right action for the business is not a public flogging, it is to pursue the debt through other means, i.e debt collector. There are plenty hosts out there that will go down that route.
A customer complaint is part of any business, whether the client is right or not, posts in public or not.
A provider posting about a client however justified it may seem will make other paying clients think twice about renewing or even recommending you. Reputation and image is everything.
Right on the money.
That is not what I think about my relations with customers. If you are being a good customer, not abusing your services, not affecting other clients in negative ways, then I'd be willing to go out of my way to help you whenever you need help, but there are clients who spoil the experience for other customers, and affect other customers in a negative way, and I consider it my duty to make sure they either stop doing it, or I have to terminate their services. Clients are the most important part of any business, without them, a business cannot survive, now can it? I understand that, but sometimes, they can be the ones who disrupt your business, or threaten its survival, and such people must be dealt with, and should be reported somewhere to make sure they don't affect other people. Remember, its not only the provider they impact negatively, they impact other innocent customers as well.
I did not say I will do such things. That's what MaxMind and FraudRecord are for. And I am not talking about debt here, I am talking about spamming, abusing resources, generating DMCAs and other legal notices. Again, I did not say that providers should post client details.
That was not directed at you personally, just a view based on what you posted. But agreed it's a wide topic.
@wcypierre said:
No worries, easy mistake to make and I'm sure you're not the only one... Considering I don't think anybody other than myself and EarthVPN have posted offers here, and that I've been a member of LET for quite a while, it'd be the natural assumption to think it may be me.
I agree with @mpkossen this is certainly an interesting topic. I must admit, I'm not sure what the ideal outcome would be, but there should be a mechanism for providers and clients alike to be held accountable for their actions. One of the things I appreciate about LET is the ability for clients and providers to conduct an open discussion and have others be able to express their opinions on the matter. Thought some clients may be worthy of public shaming, the ability to do so has been abused and honest individuals have been slandered and as such I don't think it is practical. Perhaps providers who trust each other could compile data and privately share with each other information on individuals whom they should be cautious of, I'm not sure of the legal ramifications of this option even if it was mentions in the terms of service though.