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C1Vhosting - the fiesta continues - Page 2
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C1Vhosting - the fiesta continues

2

Comments

  • JosephFJosephF Member

    @dev_vps said:

    @davide said:
    I don't know how PayPal handles charge backs for digital services, I never asked a charge back against @c1vhosting. But for physical items, getting a refund from PayPal is slow and not certain.

    You won’t like this.
    Digital goods are not covered by PayPal chargebacks.

    PayPal is not a financial institution with respect to compliance.

    I like to pay by credit card directly if possible.

    If you pay with PayPal using a credit card through PayPal, you have two shots at a chargeback. First thru PayPal. And, if that fails or is denied by PayPal or if PayPal doesn't accept that transaction for a chargeback, you can still request a chargeback through your credit card.

    So you don't really gain much by paying directly with a credit card versus paying through PayPal using a credit card.

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member

    @JosephF said:

    @dev_vps said:

    @davide said:
    I don't know how PayPal handles charge backs for digital services, I never asked a charge back against @c1vhosting. But for physical items, getting a refund from PayPal is slow and not certain.

    You won’t like this.
    Digital goods are not covered by PayPal chargebacks.

    PayPal is not a financial institution with respect to compliance.

    I like to pay by credit card directly if possible.

    If you pay with PayPal using a credit card through PayPal, you have two shots at a chargeback. First thru PayPal. And, if that fails or is denied by PayPal or if PayPal doesn't accept that transaction for a chargeback, you can still request a chargeback through your credit card.

    So you don't really gain much by paying directly with a credit card versus paying through PayPal using a credit card.

    My experience of charge back with credit card (have done three chargebacks in last few years) has been super quick.

    The time and paperwork needed to file chargeback with paypal is time consuming , to say the least. And not everyone can afford to invest so much time and paperwork headache.

  • JosephFJosephF Member

    @PineappleM said:
    I just keep one credit card solely for online purchases with a card issuer that is known to quickly refund on chargeback (assuming it's legit and not friendly fraud).

    Which card issuer is this?

  • @default said:
    Anyone managed to test this? I have mine disabled since December 2023.

    Is network fast my man?

    Getting around ~80Mbs, however the connection flatlines for 2 minutes every hour or so which is super annoying.

  • MumblyMumbly Member
    edited March 26

    @dev_vps said: You won’t like this.
    Digital goods are not covered by PayPal chargebacks.

    PayPal has been covering intangible goods for almost a decade now.

    Buyer Protection now covers intangibles.
    PayPal is always looking for ways to make shopping safer. Buyers purchasing intangible goods (such as digital goods) and services can now be covered by Buyer Protection, in the same way as they are for physical items. If a buyer claims they haven’t received an eligible item or service or it was not as described, they can open a claim which PayPal will review. We want buyers to feel safe no matter what they’re buying.

    Source:
    https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/merchant-intangibles-update
    https://financialpost.com/technology/paypal-to-cover-intangibles-as-it-looks-to-extend-consumer-protection-policy

    Thanked by 1Kris
  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member
    edited March 26

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: You won’t like this.
    Digital goods are not covered by PayPal chargebacks.

    PayPal has been covering intangible goods for almost a decade now.

    Buyer Protection now covers intangibles.

    Do you (or someone you know) have any first hand experience of chargeback for digital goods?

  • MumblyMumbly Member

    @dev_vps said: Do you (or someone you know) have any first hand experience of chargeback for digital goods?

    Who doesn't? Most likely every long-term LEB/LET member...
    Even before 2014/2015 (when paypal explicitely stated support for intangible goods) was possible to successfully dispute deadpooled hosts.

    In any case, it's been officially covered globally since 2015 and since 2013/2014 in some parts, such as the UK.

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member
    edited March 26

    Digital goods are governed by agreed terms and conditions between the customer and service provider.

    Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    You can ask c1v for this.

  • JosephFJosephF Member

    @dev_vps said:
    Digital goods are governed by agreed terms and conditions between the customer and service provider.

    Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    If you describe your dispute as being the lack of service (rather than quality), it should be accepted.

  • MumblyMumbly Member
    edited March 26

    @dev_vps said: Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    Wrong. Could you please refrain from making up stories, please?

    Let me quote it again (directly from PayPal url above):

    Buyers purchasing intangible goods (such as digital goods) and services can now be covered by Buyer Protection, in the same way as they are for physical items. If a buyer claims they haven’t received an eligible item or service or it was not as described, they can open a claim which PayPal will review. We want buyers to feel safe no matter what they’re buying.

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member

    @JosephF said:

    @dev_vps said:
    Digital goods are governed by agreed terms and conditions between the customer and service provider.

    Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    If you describe your dispute as being the lack of service (rather than quality), it should be accepted.

    Lack of service = no services rendered
    Good luck with paperwork and evidence supporting that.

    Unless, the provider has closed the shop, it is a difficult task to prove.

    Look around, how many folks have got successful chargeback against c1v … how many LET folks reported that

  • MumblyMumbly Member

    @dev_vps said: Lack of service = no services rendered
    Good luck with paperwork and evidence supporting that.

    Unless, the provider has closed the shop, it is a difficult task to prove.

    You're really new in all this hosting world, right?

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    Wrong. Could you please refrain from making up stories, please?

    Let me quote it again (directly from PayPal url above):

    Buyers purchasing intangible goods (such as digital goods) and services can now be covered by Buyer Protection, in the same way as they are for physical items. If a buyer claims they haven’t received an eligible item or service or it was not as described, they can open a claim which PayPal will review. We want buyers to feel safe no matter what they’re buying.

    Services as described ==
    Services as per terms and conditions

    Now read c1v terms and conditions

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member
    edited March 26

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Lack of service = no services rendered
    Good luck with paperwork and evidence supporting that.

    Unless, the provider has closed the shop, it is a difficult task to prove.

    You're really new in all this hosting world, right?

    Thanks for making assumption without checking my profile and post history.

    I am a customer for some LET providers for 3+ years

    I have an immediate family member who is an attorney. So I understand legal terminologies better than most folks.

  • MumblyMumbly Member
    edited March 26

    Yes, and your dad is bigger than mine, right?

    Then please stop talking nonsense and try to convince people that PayPal does not support disputes for intangible goods, and such disputes can't be successful.
    Your know a shit and your attempt to mislead people is annoying as fuck.

    Thanked by 1sasslik
  • _MS__MS_ Member

  • @Mumbly said:
    Yes, and your dad is bigger than mine, right?

    Then please stop talking nonsense and try to convince people that PayPal does not support disputes for intangible goods, and such disputes can't be successful.
    Your know a shit and your attempt to mislead people is annoying as fuck.

    Tag your interlocutor when you say this.
    I had to measure my father's height :)

  • @dev_vps said:

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    Wrong. Could you please refrain from making up stories, please?

    Let me quote it again (directly from PayPal url above):

    Buyers purchasing intangible goods (such as digital goods) and services can now be covered by Buyer Protection, in the same way as they are for physical items. If a buyer claims they haven’t received an eligible item or service or it was not as described, they can open a claim which PayPal will review. We want buyers to feel safe no matter what they’re buying.

    Services as described ==
    Services as per terms and conditions

    Now read c1v terms and conditions

    Good luck with the Italian court, the 16 year old wannabe business man and his Italian mom. I wouldn't read his terms and conditions, would be more interested where copied and pasted it from

    Thanked by 1sasslik
  • JosephFJosephF Member

    @packetnext said:

    @dev_vps said:

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    Wrong. Could you please refrain from making up stories, please?

    Let me quote it again (directly from PayPal url above):

    Buyers purchasing intangible goods (such as digital goods) and services can now be covered by Buyer Protection, in the same way as they are for physical items. If a buyer claims they haven’t received an eligible item or service or it was not as described, they can open a claim which PayPal will review. We want buyers to feel safe no matter what they’re buying.

    Services as described ==
    Services as per terms and conditions

    Now read c1v terms and conditions

    Good luck with the Italian court, the 16 year old wannabe business man and his Italian mom. I wouldn't read his terms and conditions, would be more interested where copied and pasted it from

    If you use an American credit card, chargebacks are governed by the American issuers terms.

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member
    edited March 26

    @packetnext said:

    @dev_vps said:

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Lack of quality does not qualify for chargebacks for most cases.

    Wrong. Could you please refrain from making up stories, please?

    Let me quote it again (directly from PayPal url above):

    Buyers purchasing intangible goods (such as digital goods) and services can now be covered by Buyer Protection, in the same way as they are for physical items. If a buyer claims they haven’t received an eligible item or service or it was not as described, they can open a claim which PayPal will review. We want buyers to feel safe no matter what they’re buying.

    Services as described ==
    Services as per terms and conditions

    Now read c1v terms and conditions

    Good luck with the Italian court, the 16 year old wannabe business man and his Italian mom. I wouldn't read his terms and conditions, would be more interested where copied and pasted it from

    Who is willing invest that much time (and money) to go court over such amounts?

    Look around — we don’t see many stories about successful chargebacks from PayPal. And even in case credit card, not many cases where money is taken out from provider directly.

    Whether terms and conditions are original or generated by AI or copied from other sources, it does not matter. What matters is that terms are legally binding in that jurisdiction.

    Just fyi … c1v (or any other business for that matter) ownership could be structured differently.

    It could be much easier and time saver option to reach out credit card for chargeback who are willing to keep their (majority of) customers happy.

    disclaimer —
    — opinions shared based on experience. Not intended as legal advice

  • MumblyMumbly Member

    @dev_vps said: Look around — we don’t see many stories about successful chargebacks from PayPal.

    I have never lost a dispute over PayPal against anyone. I mean, it's not like I am doing this every week or even every month, and I try to sort things out via support tickets, but in my 15 years or so of using PayPal, I have had my own share of disputes. I have never lost one.

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Look around — we don’t see many stories about successful chargebacks from PayPal.

    I have never lost a dispute over PayPal against anyone. I mean, it's not like I am doing this every week or even every month, and I try to sort things out via support tickets, but in my 15 years or so of using PayPal, I have had my own share of disputes. I have never lost one.

    When was your most recent paypal dispute (or chargeback) against a digital good or a service?

  • JosephFJosephF Member

    @dev_vps said:

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Look around — we don’t see many stories about successful chargebacks from PayPal.

    I have never lost a dispute over PayPal against anyone. I mean, it's not like I am doing this every week or even every month, and I try to sort things out via support tickets, but in my 15 years or so of using PayPal, I have had my own share of disputes. I have never lost one.

    When was your most recent paypal dispute (or chargeback) against a digital good or a service?

    At least in the United States, a chargeback against an American merchant paid for with an American credit card, it is much easier to win against a merchant for a digital good or service than for a physical product.

  • MumblyMumbly Member

    @dev_vps
    How is this relevant to anything? You persist in fabricating information that clearly stem from a lack of experience.
    Initially, you claimed that PayPal does not support customer protection for intangible goods. You were corrected; it does, and has for some time. Yet you continued with questions like, "Do you (or someone you know) have any firsthand experience of chargebacks for digital goods?" Many long-term LEB/LET members have such experiences.
    It's often the only way to get our money back from deadpooled or completely incompetent hosts, but it can also be frustrating for good hosts to deal with all this hassle, which costs them time and money.
    But you still don't give up. I'm not sure what motivates you so much to enforce your opinion on others, but you're full of shit and that's just annoying.

  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member

    @dev_vps said:

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Look around — we don’t see many stories about successful chargebacks from PayPal.

    I have never lost a dispute over PayPal against anyone. I mean, it's not like I am doing this every week or even every month, and I try to sort things out via support tickets, but in my 15 years or so of using PayPal, I have had my own share of disputes. I have never lost one.

    When was your most recent paypal dispute (or chargeback) against a digital good or a service?

    I asked you a direct factual question and you started personal attacks.

    Great.

    Have a good day!

  • sh97sh97 Member, Host Rep

    @dev_vps said:

    @dev_vps said:

    @Mumbly said:

    @dev_vps said: Look around — we don’t see many stories about successful chargebacks from PayPal.

    I have never lost a dispute over PayPal against anyone. I mean, it's not like I am doing this every week or even every month, and I try to sort things out via support tickets, but in my 15 years or so of using PayPal, I have had my own share of disputes. I have never lost one.

    When was your most recent paypal dispute (or chargeback) against a digital good or a service?

    I asked you a direct factual question and you started personal attacks.

    Great.

    Have a good day!

    If I may,

    I did my first and only chargeback against Xeroz Tech a few months back, even before they Deadpooled. They lost track of my service and despite providing them invoice and order details, they were asking more details like PayPal transaction ID. I did not ask further, did a partial refund (I did use the sevice for almost a month, it was a quarterly plan)

    Attached invoices and ticket communications, they sent it to Xeroz for seller feedback, they didn't reply. I got my cash in <2 weeks after opening dispute.

    I've also seen multiple MJJs chargeback with ease, so I think it's mostly successful.

    Thanked by 2Mumbly dev_vps
  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member

    @sh97 said:

    Attached invoices and ticket communications, they sent it to Xeroz for seller feedback, they didn't reply I got my cash in <2 weeks after opening dispute.

    I've also seen multiple MJJs chargeback with ease, so I think it's mostly successful.

    If the seller does not reply to chargeback case, it will be granted to the customer (default)

    There was a post here by c1v where he claimed that he never lost a paypal dispute.

  • sh97sh97 Member, Host Rep

    @dev_vps said:

    @sh97 said:

    Attached invoices and ticket communications, they sent it to Xeroz for seller feedback, they didn't reply I got my cash in <2 weeks after opening dispute.

    I've also seen multiple MJJs chargeback with ease, so I think it's mostly successful.

    If the seller does not reply to chargeback case, it will be granted to the customer (default)

    There was a post here by c1v where he claimed that he never lost a paypal dispute.

    Imho, I find it hard to believe (C1V has never lost a dispute).
    Even reputed providers like @Crunchbits faced victimization from PayPal by MJJs.

    On the other forum, Virmach was also saying despite giving proofs, PayPal was always siding with the customer that he temporarily removed that as a payment option.

  • @dev_vps said: There was a post here by c1v where he claimed that he never lost a paypal dispute.

    Like how he also claimed to have a Data Center :D

    Thanked by 2Mumbly sasslik
  • dev_vpsdev_vps Member

    @sh97 said:

    @dev_vps said:

    @sh97 said:

    Attached invoices and ticket communications, they sent it to Xeroz for seller feedback, they didn't reply I got my cash in <2 weeks after opening dispute.

    I've also seen multiple MJJs chargeback with ease, so I think it's mostly successful.

    If the seller does not reply to chargeback case, it will be granted to the customer (default)

    There was a post here by c1v where he claimed that he never lost a paypal dispute.

    Imho, I find it hard to believe (C1V has never lost a dispute).
    Even reputed providers like @Crunchbits faced victimization from PayPal by MJJs.

    On the other forum, Virmach was also saying despite giving proofs, PayPal was always siding with the customer that he temporarily removed that as a payment option.

    There are certain circumstantial scenarios-

    example 1
    if 30 (just an arbitrary number) customers file chargebacks against a particular provider in 2-3 days, action is taken against the provider.

    is this fair? Probably not. At least, not without looking into merits of the case. But such things happen.

    c1v terms and conditions are extremely one sided. Unless such conditions are tested in a court case, these stay on a paper.

    Digital Services == Services as per terms and conditions.

    Things would change, if x number of customers write to European Authority that looks into contract being fair.

    Most folks lose small money and they simply move on new provider.

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