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Anyone here ordered from HETZNER, got rejected, and suggested to try another company?
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Maybe I did Lastschrift/direct debit. Not sure. I cancelled my server and years later I signed up for Hetzner Cloud with my credit card (no ID required).
However, I haven't actually spun up a Hetzner cloud server because you need an account number to log in, which I would have to look up every time I log in. No, thanks.
I did not say, that there are no exceptions or more special norms to supercede basic constitutional rights, in fact I even named a few business areas were companies maybe forced to contract by law, like pharmacy (§ 17 Abs. 4 Apothekenbetriebsordnung), power (§ 17 Abs. 1 EnWG), water (based on § 826 BGB)... in general IT services don't have a rule like that.
hahaha, no. see above I stated the norms from german law for those exceptions for you.
you seem to have not much grasp for how law works.
I am not saying things can not be different in other countries. still you did not gave any specific answer to the questions about those countries, which make you think that it is more likely for companies to always be forced into any contract by law instead of the other way round.
while I agree that anti discrimination laws might play a role, they for sure only supercede any basic freedom rights only in very specific cases and don't change the default at all (which again is freedom of contract here).
so ask yourself, when does something become discriminatory? if hetzner had a general rule which said they'd never ever provide service to >insertcolorofskinhere< people because of their skincolor - then that for sure would be discriminating and contradict the right for contractual freedom.
denying service to people which can not properly be verified or validated or do fit into a scheme of being risky in a sense of doing business with them is not even close to discrimination.
also not knowing why they rejected one as customer does not make it discrimination either. of course you can believe or guess that it could have been discriminatory and if you think so, you have every right to sue them. then, and only then, they might tell a judge about the reasons for the denial and court will make a decision about it being a case of discrimination or not.
I am pretty sure you'd lose the case, as hetzner most likely does not deny just by origin, skintone or sexual preferences.
Dude, less skim and more reading would do you well.
I never claimed to know german law, on my second post to this topic I clarified that I had looked into it further and found that the law I was referring to was a national law to my country, an EU member but still nothing that Hetzner had to worry about.
@Lee later confirmed as much after I sent him a link for him to read.
Some of you seem to skim the posts too much and then engage in a passive agreesive mode for some odd reason.
And again, I referred to a very specific law, national law, that specifically addressed the requesting of a copy of an ID in order to provide service. It's not my opinion, suspicious our interpretation. It's in the law, in a very simple, straightforward way.
The role they play (in the spirit of this conversation) is that companies can't deny service based on some specific reasons. Which is what you're saying that "freedom of contract" defends companies from.
Now you're just BSing your way out of admitting that you simply didn't consider that before asking me that question.
It's ok, I guess you were specifically thinking about the ID copy scenario but by "mistake" typed a broader question. I don't hold it against you, all good.
Discrimination takes a lot of forms.
There are other ways to verify ones identity other than requesting a copy on a national ID.
I never said that asking for an ID is a discriminatory practice, what I did say is that in my country, an EU member, it's against the law to deny service if a client refuses to provide a copy of his ID. Period.
Since my second post on this topic that I stated that it was not a german law.
And again, I was simply, and only, referring to den ying service for the reason of the client denying to provide a copy of his ID.
All this arguments you are addressing, are not mine, you are focusing on stuff I didn't say.
And just so you know, according to this specific national law, the client does not have to sue the company, they simply have to file a complain /denounce/ the company, the public body responsible for this will then verify the claim and fine the company.
I suggest you stick to your own advice and reread my initial posting and the specific quote of your writings in it that I was picking on.
you are right I never was about the whole ID copy stuff but about your statement that in general (aka most countries) companies need a specific reason to deny service.
this is wrong and that was all I am saying.
companies in general need no reason at all and even if that would be about a customer not willing to validate his identity properly it's more of a stretch to consider that discrimination.
however, feel free to put in another wall of text, it won't change the fact that businesses in most parts of the world in general can freely choose their clients and partners and are not easily breaking any law by just refusing to provide services to anyone.
Give it a rest dude, Katie has rejected your unconditional love.
I assume she doesn't mean you don't deserve love at all, somewhere in the realms of this universe, that's why she has told you to 'go somewhere else', but a no means no.
Aren't you in Germany?
This is only superficially true now with SJWs tainting even the Linux kernel. Within the German hierarchy, specifically, I forsee that it won't be long until denying service is tantamount to causing egregious personal harm, and they'll be sued into submission for not renting to anyone who may be a tanned, jaundiced, or other representational form of "German".
I miss "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs. They should be a requirement of any form commerce, everywhere.
Nitpicking is nice and dandy, but pretending I said something is not.
If that's what you're saying, then you're wrong. If you were right, then anti discrimination laws would be rendered useless. Companies do need a reason.
The difference between the law I was referring to, which is the whole substance of my posts is that it doesn't require to sue a company, and is actually centered around the "request" to provide a copy of an ID.
I never said it was about discrimination, that's your spin off.
I never said the contrary, they can refuse business as long as their reasoning is lawful.
My walls of text are proportional to your spins. Focus on what I actually said, and you'll have less to read when the reply comes.
Have a dandy day.
I miss you too, shawnie ;-)
Reasoning is lawful (albeit you conveniently skipped it at least twice already), it's up to you to prove that you've been unlawfully discriminated (because of "nationality, sex, race, ethnic origin, religion, philosophical belief, disability, age or sexual orientation"; as far as the principle of non discrimination goes within the internal EU market). Whether your unnamed and publicly unmentionable European country bars you from complying with a legal business practice in another European country (and oftentimes a duty if the provider has to asseverate with due diligence the identity of their customers) isn't just something holding no bearing at all for your non-domestic business partner ; it's also a concern for your own country, since generally (with various legal methods, but the outcome is the same) any national rule interfering with the internal EU market should be amended. Possibly, a national judge should apply EU law directly and set aside domestic conflicting provisions, even if no legislative efforts have been taken. Unless you want to challenge Germany for unfair commercial practices insofar they didn't craft explicit snowflake exceptions just for you and your compatriots.
I wonder if some of you sue for discrimination your local nightclub bouncer as well
What?
I suspect you keep missing the multiple times I pointed out that the law I am referring to is not a German law.
So maybe in Germany it is. As for where I'm from, it's not.
Not sure how many times I have to repeat myself in order for some of you to undertsand that I'm not wrong about the law, it just doesn't apply to Hetzner, as I said mutiple times already...
Not with this specific law, this specific law only requires the citizen to submit a complaint to the data protection body. I already went over times multiple times.
It does not bar me from complying with legal businesse practice in another EU country. That's something I nevere claimed, yet again an imaginry argument of yours that you assign to me.
Yes, thus why I clarified on my second post to this topic that it was a national law, not of concern to Hetzner.
Why would this be an unfair commercial practice? what a pile of BS you added there just to end up with an attack.. sad.
The fact of the matter is thayt EU member, can, have the right to, and routinely do enact national laws.
This law, specifically, prevents companies nationwide to demand a copy of an ID, it does not prevent companies from seeing an ID or even from using other means, and there are many, to verify a client identity.
Gemany may feel differently about their citizens right to deny a copy of their personal ID to germans companies "at gun point".
Seems like you had a rough night, don't stress, there's a nighclub waiting for you, somewhere... just bounce around till you find it.
.
I directly quoted you challenging the fact that "businesses _in most parts of the world_in general can freely choose their clients and partners and are not easily breaking any law by just refusing to provide services to anyone" (sic)
We shall pair this with the "I never said it was about discrimination" rollercoaster I guess.
Go ahead and complain. If you're in the internal market you shouldn't find signing up to a service rendered in a different EU member State more difficult than signing up to a service rendered in your country.
I know, it doesn't apply to Hetzner, but allegedly it does apply to you, isn't it? Or the "recent reform" grants you the ability to send scans to businesses in Germany but not to a domestic one? It would be quite a loophole.
The ride never ends.
Glad you don't deem it unfair, nor discriminatory, nor unlawful. Everything is fine now? Wait, it seems it isn't.
Dear me. I've always been respectful and on topic, at times sharing my professional (yep) experience. I'm not going to dignify passive-aggressive tongue-in-cheek name-calling again.
The topic has been quickly changed from Hetzner to the discussion of a specific law in an unknown europe country.
So much fun
Me too!
Ha ha ha...
What I said is that businesses around the world can't just deny service at a whimp, someone, maybe you (I don't remember or care to look it up) asked for an example, and I replied that any where anti discrimination laws exist. This was a broad question and got a broad reply.
Fact of the matter is that my post first post was about this specific law, the second post clarified that it was a national law to a country that is not Germany.
Some of you got butt hurt and keep getting me horny and back to LET because I do enjoy drama. So I let myself go in all this repetition that you force me to engage in.
I never said that it was, so you can file it under whatever your feelings direct you.
What I did say (again), is that in this specific EU member, a company cannot deny service because their client/prospect refuse to provide a copy of their ID. Period.
WTF are you smoking? I want some!
I kept saying over and over and over again that this is a national law of no concern to Hetzner.
Weed? Dude, national laws usually apply to what happens within the country. I never, in any instance, said that the law blocks me to do business with Hetzner, actually I'm pretty sure there's a post in here that clarified that exact point. But, oh well... you just enjoy "countering" arguments I never made.
Oh here it is, fun, you can add it to my answer above.
Everything was fine before. This was yet another example of you countering an argument I never made to start with.
I don't know if its unlawful in Germany, someone else said it used to be, other that its not anymore and others that it never was.
What I did say, without a glimps of doubt, is that were I live in, an EU member country, it's illegal. Period.
And how do I know? i know because I'm not an arm chair LET lawyer that keep countering arguments that no one never made without considering that maybe, just maybe they are telling the truth regardless of your feelings on the matter. I actually read the law.
No you were not respectful, at times passive-agressive, and pretending I made arguments I never did which is disrespectful and disingenuous.
I'm in a good mood, so here's a TLDR version that maybe, just maybe will prevent further repetitive replies.
Those are the points that you can address, everything else is fruit of your imagination or someone else's claim, if the later, take it up to them.
Time to lock this thread ? It goes in the loops, leads nowhere.
Yeah, I wanted to say "Are you guys still at it?".