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I agree with you but he got this money/income, firstly from our LET community, secondly, we are talking about E-mail providers, we pay them because we trust them and we continue trusting them because we expect in future, they have a baseline of decency in all behaviours/controversies.
So I think that creating this post/showing this, indicates that, perhaps Jar has lost the trust of community (something akin to what even jbiloh said)
And also, if wyvern stays silent, then it would actually be misleading the mxroute customers who wouldn't know how jar acts in some situations.
So jar used his platform to attack someone who was criticizing him, and he reaped the consequences. Quite a few people have cancelled their subscriptions, but the attack sale was not removed.
Let us also remember that this happened a while ago. Wyvern (and I) thought everyone moved on until now.
Because he IS evil. Just take a look at his reddit thread. Of course it depends on level of perception. As you wrote:
<..>
Usually in fist fight the blame goes on person who first landed a punch.
You equate criticism, regardless of how it is delivered or whether it's valid, with attacking someone? That justifies further escalation?
That's debatable. He might think it's a fair and square action since what @WyvernCo does , interrupting his business with hetzner, on the basis of copyright/trademark infringement. So, he may deflect as the other person had endangered his livelihood first, and it was a response
Why mods don't do this even now? Because JB loves clicks and all those dollars flowing.
Even by your own logic which I feel like respectfully disagreeing with, Within fist fights, i don't think that after fist fights, someone tries to fire them off from their job, and if they do that, the blame shifts significantly
Perhaps some of the blame goes to moderators then, since jar was personally attacking Wyvern (and me) in response to us criticizing him, and nothing was done to stop any of this.
Wyvern did report it to the mods. It's not like his first course of action was to report the ToS violation to Hetzner.
Perhaps he shouldn't have endangered his own livelihood by breaking Hetzner's ToS.
(I'm not saying it's "his fault", I'm just pointing out that I don't think he is an innocent victim who was randomly attacked by Wyvern for no reason)
I won't be silent, and I'll certainly bring it up in future threads where relevant. I do appreciate your suggestion, and I agree you're probably right that there is money there I could probably rightfully claim through legal processes, but I just don't want to devote the next two years (and $$$) fighting him in court. I think forest said it best earlier, no one wins in a lawsuit but the lawyers.
Honestly, we can play the blame game for sometime now and within these 500 comments we have. It doesn't matter (personally at least) to who is at initial blame here or not in the sense that the escalation done by jar and him being hot-headed is still the most major blame factor. My question remains as to after this incident, I don't want someone who might behave how jar did to manage my mails.
People love to give blame but there were multiple ways to de-escalate the situation which could've been done by jar but he failed to do anything and he just kept on escalating and he is still escalating and ruining his brand by now botting that reddit thread and everything too and the trustpilot review, the psycho thing etc.
I think it would be best not to bring it up too much. Both jar and you are obviously very stressed out right now, and bringing it up won't convince jar to remove the personal attacks.
I'm not saying you have to be silent about it either, but it's not a good idea to feed into jar's narrative that you're stalking him which, up to this point, you provably aren't (unless mentioning his actions in one other thread counts as stalking).
I agree. It happened in the past and the only reason the old wounds are being re-opened is because a past attack (albeit a pretty egregious one) was not noticed until now.
Perhaps a way to deescalate this would be to remove the attack post and sanction jar for it. If jar doesn't even come to LET anymore, it's not really going to hurt him, but it may allow Wyvern to feel listened to and not feel like the personal attack is going unpunished. It would also show that personal attacks are not acceptable.
i mean, its certainly possible after all, @jbiloh was NOT happy with jar.
It was just a screenshot from their support saying a cable not plugged in caused someones downtime
It’s on their subreddit, somewhere
Funny thing is I often spin up some VMs on Hetzner, I don’t even dislike them
YES THIS IS THE ONE THAT GOT ME SIVIR
They're a relatively decent email service that fits the lowend niche of
"unlimited" x "has good sale deals" x "can idle 4fun". You have to remember that it started in the era of people (like me) running postfix, mailcow, mailinabox and having to deal with issues, open relays, spam. Having a service that would manage that for hardly anything was (and still is) great.I've been using Mxroute since 2018 on one of the $5/y 5GB unlim domains plans. Has the service been running fine since then? Yep. Are there new entrants within the past few years that offer better value for a bit more per year? Absolutely.
The service proposition of "i can receive mail, i can send mail" is fine. The business practices on top of the service proposition isn't what I expect from a mature-in-market vendor. As much as people say "separate the person from the business/service" - you can't. They still control the service.
I still think that this could have been resolved if both sides didn't escalate every single time. ATP, everything has been said - it's been indexed by search engines already, give it a rest.
You got a severe warning for that?
Tbh I can’t 100 % that it was severe, but I think it was. At least medium.
Yes, for that
And he locked the thread as well
@jar is reading this thread, because he edited his Reddit post 5 hours ago after it was mentioned, so he is clearly present. He just chooses to stay silent here and play the victim in the cest pit on LES.
I mean to be honest, Although funny meme material, I mean but yeah, how would servers run if the power cable was not plugged in correctly, by a human, I mean mistakes happen lol, its not much biggie.
At least props to hetzner for transparency, they could've said there was a fault from our side but they went into detail.
Not sure why they sent medium warning tho. hetzner is mostly chill af when things work but they are a bit strict sometimes but atleast they are transparent about their strictness up-front rather than having it be hidden.
Morning to you folks, hope your day is good enough for the next 12 pages of this saga
I will use what @MannDude put together as I think is the most correct timeline until now, if not, I stand ready to be spanked
1- Some members poke fun and "follow him" around to bring up the same BS (though idk what) from thread to thread that jar posts in. What was the context of "following" him around post to post?
Well I think that is where all this shit started, also there is a lot taken out of context in that thread, so as a result at some point Jar even asked a few times to just drop it and to be left alone, now..... from there the 2 continued, probably because thy thought it was fun or whatever, I am sure they have their reasons.
2 - LET is a community that is hardly serious, users and providers alike create and post memes that are hardly professional or "corporate friendly"
Yupp, yet not all is bad, just the extremes, like this case in particular.
3 - At some point jar makes a sales post with a coupon code with the username or a LET member, saying they're "psycho" due to what I assume is a lengthy public back and forth between the three?
Now this would have been harmless if taken in good faith/fooling around, I will mention @AlteredParadox getting a promo code "AlteredParadox-dont-buy-it!". Now the context was definitely different, yet I think @AlteredParadox would not have mined if I had used "AlteredParadox-get-help-you-dont-need-any-more-idleres-you-need-help", If I did offend you in any way, I apolagise and you are free to call SUE
Jar used a more aggressive approach, calling the 2 fella "psycho" as a result of them not letting go of the stalking and continuing to reply to him after he asked to be left alone. He also tagged som mods/admins from here in that thread.
4 - One of the two members decide that this was an "attack" against them and justified as a greenlight to attempt tp deplatform MXRoute.
And here things got really out of control in my view, and escaladated to 100% personal atacks. It was all fun and games till this point.
5 - Hetzner gets an abuse complaint suggesting jarland was using someone's likeliness (A LET username) in a promo, demands his account be terminated. They suspend it.
The one that made the notification to Hetzner is @WyvernCo as to my understanding. Now, all this because you got in a "heavy" disagreement with someone on a forum???
Someone please enlighten me how is that different from what jar did next, as to my understanding, the jar review cam after this, and that is a reply to a escaladed conflict, not doxing.
8 - Now where Jar DID fuck up and will gain reputational damage is the TrustPilot review. That's not a good look and I will not defend that.
However, despite knowing that his information was likely from the (questionable) abuse email and not as a MXR user, wyverco never clarified this fact and let it be thought that he had no idea how someone could put 1:1 together to find him or old or current employment online.
9 - wyvern mentions trying or wanting to get jarland's PayPal banned.
Nice, so if the Hetzner card did not play out, we move to the next battlefield, ok. I give you credit on this. ( sarcasm )
10 - Wyvern makes reddit thread with the same original vague information as shown here originally, lacking the context of the community.
And this is front number 3 opened, yet this is LOW even for a 16 year old, because by the time of this, Jar already sent out the notification that he left LET.
Now, don't get me wrong here, but if the actions of wyvern don't look as revenge to you for something totally childish, it is not me, it is you.
Furthermore, if jar would have spilled your Name, adress, hone number or whatever on a public forum that is doxing, trying to find you and contacting the company you work for ( regardless that he was right or not in his findings ) and posting a review after you "harresed" him around, as if you read the initial thread it kinda looks like that sincerely, well, not doxing, I would go with repercussion/consequence of your actions, or in other words "you asked for it", and since you did that, you should own it.
Was it aggressive? yes, you can say that, was it justified? well kinda. See the reason for forum rules to not be a dick is precisely this.
There is a very thin line between meme/fun and insult. For memes to happen all parties involved have to feel the level of the thread and know with whom they can fuq around and not. This was not the case here.
"If you find yourself in a room of 100 strangers the chances of you not getting along with 1 of them are quite high". Now LET is not a 100 person room, so, chances we don't agree on things are extremely high.
In other words, dont't start a fight as we already have enough of those. You can state your opinion and back it up in a calm way, you don't know how?? use a damn LLM.
Wyvern - as a provider, my opinion you did force he's hand, and what would you expect in this case? sincerley?? you did the same as jar, you should take a timeout, at least a few days and cool off. Also, judging by how you handled this, if you would had been a provider, you would have done the same. - do prove me wrong.
@forest - I think you felt that this went sideways at some point, yet, even you can see that it is a childish shit-show that gained absolutely nothing other then popcorn.
I am truly disappointed how this turned out. It seems whenever something goes wrong, the first action is attack/mock/insult and then 76568 pages of popcorn he said she said shit show.
Cheers! HOST-C
That's where a lot of the misunderstandings come from. He reported jar for a violation of Hetzner's ToS to try to get the attack removed, and that's all.
This, the thing is, if he is using hetzner for services that he later resells, he has to follow Hetzner's ToS and by creating the following deal where they called you two guys psycho, that broke Hetzner's ToS and he should've tried to not do the deal. In the end it was his choice to make the deal and then deal with the consequences (A little bit of poetic play in the end where I use the word deal in 2 different contexts :] )
Dear friend @host_c, feel free to use my username in whatever hilarious promo codes you wish
That's true, but:
Would anyone sane take this as fun/meme? And this was before, mind you, anyone but him threw out insults.
So now we’re all about fairness and “playing by the rules” — but only when the mess we got ourselves into stops going our way.
It’s like going to the park, messing around with kids because you’re the older guy, then getting humbled by some college dudes… and suddenly you run crying to mommy. The moment things don’t go your way, out comes the holy “TOS law” — even though there were already pages of “please stop and leave me alone” replies from Jar before that whole circus kicked off
I will not pursue this thread further, I said what i wished, everyone can make up he/she/it's own opinion.
May you all have a nice week.
HOST-C Out.
@host_c you can only use my username in promos if you’re praising me otherwise you will hear from my lawyer @oloke
@host_c Providers like you in this thread so eagerly engaging in victim shaming make it really easy for everyone else here to know who to never trust / buy services from.
Also, we already debunked some of mann's post earlier in the thread if you care to read.
s/debunked/corrected/