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Calin iHostART.Com took our $22.5K and scamming us!
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What should Calin do? If his bank requires him to submit the documents, he cannot send it back.
It's not like PayPal - if PayPal places your funds on hold, you can still send refunds. That won't work with any bank.
EDIT: It seems a bit off that the bank would require an account statement from the customer.
Calin sent that crypto to his bank account, so normally he would need to provide the bank with an invoice of his company, offering these servers, not the other way round, asking the original customer where the money came from.
Since the fault was at the provider's end as they failed to complete the contract that was agreed upon by both parties, the provider should but the fees are often pretty low to be an issue for either party. I am sure the client would rather have the $22.5k - $2 instead of $0
Well, he runs business isn’t he? So it is a task for his business to resolve this problem and mitigate this particular risk. Sell kidney, rob bank, go and dig graves. The other party lost money which was sent to a business for services which was not received.
It is calin problem to deal with his bank. Customer sent btc and should receive btc back. Imagine toyr-self in place of the person who lost 20k. How do you feel?
The only comment related to this. Yes, this is also reflected in Calin's comment above when he said 10% tax.
When banks want proof of funds for large crypto transactions they pretty much want it traced back to where someone bought crypto with fiat.
There are some crypto-friendly banks but this is the reality with most banks.
Yes, I agree, please read my edit
Hi @all,
first:
Big thanks to all contributors ( except the both protagonists of the story, as it sounds serious enough ) for this great show! You light up my night and made me smile
To the topic:
For me, there are also some question marks too, that have already been pointed out by others here.
We also buy sometimes hardware. And yes, sometimes its a bit more expensive and no, we do not ( afaik ) slice transfers in handy < 10k packages to fly under the radar. So why was this an issue here? Or was the money send to a hardware supplier who is located in some beloved states like russia/china/iran and/or something that are under western sanctions?
Up until now, we never had that situations. Ok, we also dont do DMCA free stuff and similar. Maybe we are too virgin and noob... i have to admit...
At the end of the day:
@GoSSDHosting
IF its legit money from legit source ( and also if not hrhr ): invest some money, get a lawyer to get back the money if its not voluntary given back. With 22k EUR it could be worth the invest.
If you dont want to do that, well, expensive lesson i would say.... dont do business in this scales with unknown partners... but if this is in any universe legit, romania belongs to the EU. I assume that stealing money is also against romanian law. So in case something was really stolen here, you have some (good) changes to get it back.
What if I find my 2013 thumb drive and start spending the 5000 bitcoins on there?
They were never bought, but simply created out of thin air.
Find a crypto-friendly bank or go through an OTC.
Your current personal bank will probably not want to touch that money.
this is pure scam rip to dudes 20k. he could've invested the money directly into hardware didn't had to deposit from crypto to his bank, he clearly runs on his personal bank account questions will be asked if seen such amount of money, also how tf did it get blocked as soon as everything was transfered? why didn't he start purchasing hardware and stuff xd maybe he wanted to pay everything in 1 invoice 20k$ ? clown fiesta
@JasonM said:
So true, in your country.
. If you are from EU I am pretty confident that this applies to FIAT, not crypto.
Crypto is not money, you might have payed money for it, it has money value, but it is not treated like money. ( at least not for now )
because it is not MONEY, that is why and over 10.000 EURO from whatever coin-base-shit-crypto-exchange is wired, RO banks will ask who the heck is the customer/payee.
Making x times 500 USD will not solve the issue, I mean, com on, you think that they are stupid and do not see the originating account numbers???? WTF guys, we are not in 1920 when you carried physical checks and confirmations were made over telegraph.
Most/some fail to understand that crypto to FIAT conversion is treated different in every country and when large enough sums are involved, things get complicated/complex.
Furthermore, there are banks that explicitly refuse money if it comes from crypto, usually they block the sums and notify the corresponding authorities. ( providing fake data really does not help your case in these situations, as a general idea
).
Every time a large amount of crypto gets involved on this forum, a popcorn show begins.
@calin, it seems that the last two times, you were the main actor
This should serve as a warning to you, sincerely. I don't know of any Romanian bank that wouldn't ask where the money comes from in cases like this, especially if the amount is over 10,000 EURO.
For example - Alpha Bank would have frozen all accounts you had at them and notify a shit load of authorities, ING the same, some like BT, UniCredit Bank and BRD – Groupe Société Générale are lighter in this case ( hope you have an account on the later ones )
You've just been caught in a money trap again.
Someone (I can't recall exactly who) said on this forum, "If it seems too good to be true, it probably isn't."
Furthermore, if you sense that a customer is initially reluctant to provide information, learn to say no. (At these sums, KYC is mandatory.)
Personally, I would not have touched this deal not even with a stick and I am not the only one thinking this way.
@GoSSDHosting - Try to solve the issue with @Calin.
From what I've gathered reading the last three pages, sincerely, if the data provided to the bank was fake or incorrect, wiring back the transfers will be "interesting," to say the least.
Rubbing shit here will not get your crypto back, it will get you a nice shit-show, but nothing more, as the problem is not the willingness to pay you back.
Actually, since few years ago, Romanian's ANAF (tax authority) issued a law that any transfer over 10k eur must be immediately reported by the bank directly to ANAF.
Here, my plain guess, is that Calin tried to do some money laundering by sending money to his personal account and try not to get caught by ANAF so he won't pay 16% profit tax on income.
We had single transactions over 30k in one-go, but bank never asked anything. Why? Because it was made towards a corporate account, not a private individual's one. And it self deduces that a company's main goal IS to make money. Shitloads of money. No question asked.
No need to make baseless allegations like that. And in any case, that would be tax evasion, not money laundering. They're practically opposites.
I said it was just a guess.
Also, trying to move money between X recipients via crypto and banks and exchanges, kinda gets under money laundering as it is considered an attempt to lose trace on money source.
++ tax evasion ofc.
I agree. But, couldn’t it be both?
Tax evasion: obviously.
Money laundering: we don’t know where this crypto came from, but in this speculative example, it would be clean afterwards (if successful).
What if I use one of these bitcoins to buy three tacos and not do anything with banks?
Is the taco truck screwed if they try to convert to fiat and deposit to their bank?
If you sell your car with 10.001 EURO the bank will call you the next day and ask what is with this money - this is only valid for Personal Accounts, not company accounts.
Calin has the problem of the bank asking who is the payee as they saw that the $$ was wired from a crypto-exchange and in this case it makes 0 importance that you have a business account or a personal account.
Test this, wire yourself 10.000 euro total over a period of 6 months, you will be asked from where you had the crypto initially. Because if you had it from exchange and played with 2000 USD worth of crypto and earned 10.000 USD, they have to report this to the IRS so you have to pay 16% TAX on the 8000 earned. ( and i think is 16% + CAS + CASS as it is over 12 minimum salaries, heck if I recall exactly )
EDIT:
I doubt that he transferred this to he's personal account and not the company account. If he had done this to he;s personal account, we might not be writing us here as a free man.
There are plenty of services that allow you to convert BTC to FIAT that enforce KYC. Bittrex should be just one example. And, of course, business oriented.
In the traditional 3-step money laundering scheme that would just be "layering". You can't just obfuscate the source of funds and then transfer the funds to your personal account. The bank will ask questions which you won't be able to answer (and there is no benefit of doubt on your side).
It would be money laundering if he re-integrated that money into his existing business through fake invoices or what-not.
Banks only really ask questions about large sums.
On non-corporate accounts only.
I had bank asking questions for topping up KYC cryptoexchange (not withdrawing from exchange).
I guess it highly depends on bank policies in the first place.
@emgh
You just hit the jackpot, Crypto in the eyes if RO IRS and GOV is mostly considered Money laundering, hence the obligations of the Banks to report this to IRS and other GOV agencies.
This is too much paperwork for some, so they just refuse to deal with crypto, so they do not even accept transfers from crypto exchange. ( you really think banks would give a fuck as long as they can take their cut in transfer fees?? )
I'm a criminal now?
I know you hate Calin and have extreme amounts of jealousy towards him, but there is no need to start slandering me. There was a legal document drafted and Calin paid the dues in full per the agreement (actually paid off early) while I gained a tenant for hardware we had unsold. Really not that difficult to comprehend.
I also give "interest-free" loans to every customer that buys an LTO from us. Maybe you're just a really big fan of usury and this upsets you? If not, come get some interest-free server loans.
Yes, I'm definitely responsible for people who keep deciding to send tens of thousands of dollars to @Calin because he was $1.37 a month cheaper than a reputable provider directly. Everyone gets all up in arms, but then simultaneously continues to shun reputable providers and keep feeding the beast fresh coin. Just look at the slew of extremely obvious red-flag deals that crop up weekly with a line of people wanting to pour money hand-over-fist into their coffers. What should the mods even do, completely disallow offers to keep you safe from yourself?
Despite that, I agree with you re: payment. If it arrives to the provider's wallet safely and confirmed, it's basically on the provider to deliver something or refund. That being said I would also be a realist, and if the provider is communicating difficulties to you due to banking issues, I'd likely work with them to either get my servers or get it returned even if I "shouldn't have to". If you don't want to deal with that potential, then buy from AWS and follow their rules and pay their pricing.
It's probably all highly dependent on jurisdiction and patterns. I've had many very large sums go through without a hitch (some that I expected absolutely would result in a call), and then other much smaller (well below $10k) result in phone calls/checks/etc. It's never an issue, but it definitely seems to be a lot more 'dynamic' now than in years past.
I will also say that between being in the US and also having business interests in Washington State, it's nearly impossible to have a crypto<->fiat bridge for us now. There is still one path but it's been about a month of waiting on their approval, and I just stopped checking in on it. I don't mind keeping crypto as crypto and using it directly, but if your average monthly revenue is $10k you probably cannot eat $22k+ locked in crypto.
Hate to ruin the meme magic, but I don't think I can do a bailout here. We're not a DMCA ignored host. I do genuinely feel bad for the customer who probably had no clue about all the middle-man money shuffling, so if that customer sees this and/or @GoSSDHosting wants to introduce them I can probably come up with a solution that works out for all parties assuming they're ToS/AUP compatible or find a way to be in compliance. Shy of that, I would just recommend talking with @Calin and working through the issues and being realistic. While I've had my fair share of issues with him, I do believe he cares about his business and will try to fulfill whatever he reasonably can. The alternative is that the money is gone anyways, so not much to lose.
It is crazy the amount of people who are looking at this sort of like a black and white thing where calin is completely in the wrong, while in reality the things are 100% gray.
From what I have read up until now, Calin's only fault is being a bit too optimistic and biting more than he can chew (with crypto).
The other hosting provider and their customer are 100% shady and they knew those cryptos were risky, the hosting provider should've realized this is not going to be an easy thing when all of the other hosters denied a deal.
It was naive of them to think sending money in chunks would've helped this fly under the radar. You can't just pin the entire blame on Calin, you always need to have some sort of backup, do your due diligence.
My suggestion is to try to help Calin out as much as possible, have goodwill for him. That's the only option you have other than considering this an expensive mistake and refunding the customer with your own funds.
@Andreix
The warning actually said, "Host Reps should not complain about other providers in the other providers' advertising threads. Please take it easy! Thanks! Tom @Not_Oles"
This thread is not another provider's advertising thread, so maybe it's more appropriate for you to complain here than there.
Please note that there are 5 warnings in your profile history, including two Severe warnings.
I think you have a really good point that behavior by some people under discussion here might be criminal in some jurisdictions -- provided that proof was available. Maybe other jurisdictions might not require proof.
Your warning that I issued was not about what you were saying, but about the threads where you choose to talk about it. It's not right for Host Reps and Providers to mess in their competitors' ad threads. You summarized the warning that I issued in a way which seems different from the actual meaning. Given this difference, and given the multiple warnings on your profile, and given the Admins & Moderators Are People Too rule, may I please ask you to take a week off from LET?
Your ban by me, here, will automatically expire in a week unless some other staff member extends it. While you are on vacation, I hope you please take time to consider carefully that neither the possible criminal behavior at which you are pointing nor the fact that you are talking about that subject is the reason for my asking you to take a week off. The problem originally was the inappropriate place where you originally mentioned your point about criminal behavior, and now the problem is that you seem to be trying to attack my decisions as volunteer moderator by inappropriately summarizing my warning.
By the way, if LET is, like you say, full of criminality, why do you want to keep your Host Rep tag here? Why do you even want to stay here as a menber? Well, I hope that you and I both want to improve LET and make the LET Community better.
Please come back next week having taken some time to relax, to enjoy yourself, and to do good things that you yourself want to do. Please make positive contributions to the Community when you return. And, if your positive contributions are to call out possible problems like alleged criminal behavior, please don't do that in your competition's ad threads. Please also stop blaming things on LET's volunteer staff members like me. If you want to volunteer for the staff, to put your time into our LET Community for free, please file a support ticket asking to join the staff. We could use some more staff because the work load is high.
Thanks and best wishes!
This is a bit offtopic but...
Can you provide some examples of offers you have in mind ?
And yes indeed if the scam is so obvious then the moderators shouldn't be allowing sales in the first place.
I'm not going to deny that many of us like to play with risk with full knowledge of the facts.
However, I think that many people don't necessarily have a clear idea of what is and isn't profitable in terms of offers / companies and trust moderation to sort things out beforehand.
So they go for the cheapest, which feeds the vicious circle.
@yoursunny has bonus points, hamburger at his expense.
without extra cheese, it is still america, need to keep that 7usd budget!!!
I don't get the joke
However, I'll take a free burger, I'm hungry. Hosthatch has ruined me.
Cheeseburger comes with cheese.
Extra cheese is $0.49 each.