Avoid Avoro.eu, php-friends, and dataforest oversold root servers and fraudsters

online7237 · May 2024

@labze said:
People sure do love to witch hunt here. Dedicated cores also seem to be a misunderstood concept to many.

I doubt any provider on LowEndTalk would be able to deliver 200+ VMs with dedicated resources without prior notice. I don't know how dataforest handles their stock management but I would assume most just list services where they normally have plenty of stock as "unlimited". As they say, this is a once in 11-year situation and it seems like many providers has been hit with this scenario lately due to some new Crypto scheme.

Judging a service provider by such a special situation is not fair. The intended usage for these VMs would break the majority of providers terms of service, dedicated cores or not. A lot of hosts do not allow crypto due to various reason and they are usually well-founded as it usually includes abusive behavior either through high CPU usages, high IO usage or a combination.

Many also seem to think that dedicated resources means guaranteed performance. As Advin has mentioned several times, then as the average CPU usage goes up across the board the average performs per thread goes down. This is due CPU thermal limits limiting the boost frequency, amongst other things. You'll often see chips advertised with a "all-core boost speed" and then a general indicating the highest expected boost speed.

But that is not all, even if a provider pinned each vCore they would not be truly dedicated. The host node itself has to use quite a significant amount of resources for manage the virtualization, IO read/write require CPU threads, networking does and so forth. Even a system with only 70% CPU utilization by the VMs can cause steal due to these factors.

That's a reason I am generally not a fan of dedicated resources, as even the most honest attempts to market this would somewhat be false due to how virtualization works. In the end, the only thing a provider can guarantee is that you can use 100% of your CPU all the time. They cannot guarantee that using 100% is truly 100% of the underlying core.

What? I paid this company several thousand euros. If the cores were not dedicated, I would have never purchased it. Dedicated cores means dedicated. I just wanted dedicated cores. I never mentioned guaranteed performance. I never mentioned hash rate or complaining if one servers performance was worse than the other. Upwards of 95% of the CPU resources was being taken from me. That's the problem. Why are you even bringing up chips and core boost speed? Don't advertise it as dedicated if it isn't. Just say it's shared. They do this to charge more money than for a VPS and they just hope no one actually uses the CPU fully.

dev_vps · May 2024

@online7237 said:

@labze said:
People sure do love to witch hunt here. Dedicated cores also seem to be a misunderstood concept to many.

I doubt any provider on LowEndTalk would be able to deliver 200+ VMs with dedicated resources without prior notice. I don't know how dataforest handles their stock management but I would assume most just list services where they normally have plenty of stock as "unlimited". As they say, this is a once in 11-year situation and it seems like many providers has been hit with this scenario lately due to some new Crypto scheme.

Judging a service provider by such a special situation is not fair. The intended usage for these VMs would break the majority of providers terms of service, dedicated cores or not. A lot of hosts do not allow crypto due to various reason and they are usually well-founded as it usually includes abusive behavior either through high CPU usages, high IO usage or a combination.

Many also seem to think that dedicated resources means guaranteed performance. As Advin has mentioned several times, then as the average CPU usage goes up across the board the average performs per thread goes down. This is due CPU thermal limits limiting the boost frequency, amongst other things. You'll often see chips advertised with a "all-core boost speed" and then a general indicating the highest expected boost speed.

But that is not all, even if a provider pinned each vCore they would not be truly dedicated. The host node itself has to use quite a significant amount of resources for manage the virtualization, IO read/write require CPU threads, networking does and so forth. Even a system with only 70% CPU utilization by the VMs can cause steal due to these factors.

That's a reason I am generally not a fan of dedicated resources, as even the most honest attempts to market this would somewhat be false due to how virtualization works. In the end, the only thing a provider can guarantee is that you can use 100% of your CPU all the time. They cannot guarantee that using 100% is truly 100% of the underlying core.

What? I paid this company several thousand euros. If the cores were not dedicated, I would have never purchased it. Dedicated cores means dedicated.
I just wanted dedicated cores. I never mentioned guaranteed performance. I never mentioned hash rate or complaining if one servers performance was worse than the other. Upwards of 95% of the CPU resources was being taken from me. That's the problem.

Did you even read what @labze has written?

Read again

... as the average CPU usage goes up across the board the average performs per thread goes down. This is due CPU thermal limits limiting the boost frequency, amongst other things.

dev_vps · May 2024

@dev_vps said:

@online7237 said:
.... Also, you say your server is fine but you probably only use 5% of the CPU.

You never answered about use case for so many VDS

Why not one or two or three dedicated servers and vendor can help with proxmox and VDS on the dedicated server

waiting for your reply

online7237 · May 2024

@dev_vps said:

@online7237 said:

@labze said:
People sure do love to witch hunt here. Dedicated cores also seem to be a misunderstood concept to many.

I doubt any provider on LowEndTalk would be able to deliver 200+ VMs with dedicated resources without prior notice. I don't know how dataforest handles their stock management but I would assume most just list services where they normally have plenty of stock as "unlimited". As they say, this is a once in 11-year situation and it seems like many providers has been hit with this scenario lately due to some new Crypto scheme.

Judging a service provider by such a special situation is not fair. The intended usage for these VMs would break the majority of providers terms of service, dedicated cores or not. A lot of hosts do not allow crypto due to various reason and they are usually well-founded as it usually includes abusive behavior either through high CPU usages, high IO usage or a combination.

Many also seem to think that dedicated resources means guaranteed performance. As Advin has mentioned several times, then as the average CPU usage goes up across the board the average performs per thread goes down. This is due CPU thermal limits limiting the boost frequency, amongst other things. You'll often see chips advertised with a "all-core boost speed" and then a general indicating the highest expected boost speed.

But that is not all, even if a provider pinned each vCore they would not be truly dedicated. The host node itself has to use quite a significant amount of resources for manage the virtualization, IO read/write require CPU threads, networking does and so forth. Even a system with only 70% CPU utilization by the VMs can cause steal due to these factors.

That's a reason I am generally not a fan of dedicated resources, as even the most honest attempts to market this would somewhat be false due to how virtualization works. In the end, the only thing a provider can guarantee is that you can use 100% of your CPU all the time. They cannot guarantee that using 100% is truly 100% of the underlying core.

What? I paid this company several thousand euros. If the cores were not dedicated, I would have never purchased it. Dedicated cores means dedicated.
I just wanted dedicated cores. I never mentioned guaranteed performance. I never mentioned hash rate or complaining if one servers performance was worse than the other. Upwards of 95% of the CPU resources was being taken from me. That's the problem.

Did you even read what @labze has written?

Yes and I and no one else cares about the technicals. I wasn't complaining about core speed or high IO.

Enough with this technical jargon. If you advertise dedicated cores, it should be dedicated. Otherwise say it's shared.

If they could not provide the servers, then just reject the order and provide a refund. Don't provide the servers and then say you don't expect the clients to use the cores.

tra10000 · May 2024

OP is right, @dataforest is right..

Off-topic,
@jar on one side, @dataforest on the other side @interservermike a few days ago

@Francisco is probably next. Increase stocks. There are things prepared for you

online7237 · May 2024

@dev_vps said:

@dev_vps said:

@online7237 said:
.... Also, you say your server is fine but you probably only use 5% of the CPU.

You never answered about use case for so many VDS

Why not one or two or three dedicated servers and vendor can help with proxmox and VDS on the dedicated server

waiting for your reply

For my use it was better to have many smaller servers than a bunch of more powerful servers. I already do have dedicated servers with hetzner but they limit how many I can order. They only increase it after paying my bill each month, otherwise I would just stick with them.

dev_vps · May 2024

@online7237 said:

@dev_vps said:

@online7237 said:

@labze said:
People sure do love to witch hunt here. Dedicated cores also seem to be a misunderstood concept to many.

I doubt any provider on LowEndTalk would be able to deliver 200+ VMs with dedicated resources without prior notice. I don't know how dataforest handles their stock management but I would assume most just list services where they normally have plenty of stock as "unlimited". As they say, this is a once in 11-year situation and it seems like many providers has been hit with this scenario lately due to some new Crypto scheme.

Judging a service provider by such a special situation is not fair. The intended usage for these VMs would break the majority of providers terms of service, dedicated cores or not. A lot of hosts do not allow crypto due to various reason and they are usually well-founded as it usually includes abusive behavior either through high CPU usages, high IO usage or a combination.

Many also seem to think that dedicated resources means guaranteed performance. As Advin has mentioned several times, then as the average CPU usage goes up across the board the average performs per thread goes down. This is due CPU thermal limits limiting the boost frequency, amongst other things. You'll often see chips advertised with a "all-core boost speed" and then a general indicating the highest expected boost speed.

But that is not all, even if a provider pinned each vCore they would not be truly dedicated. The host node itself has to use quite a significant amount of resources for manage the virtualization, IO read/write require CPU threads, networking does and so forth. Even a system with only 70% CPU utilization by the VMs can cause steal due to these factors.

That's a reason I am generally not a fan of dedicated resources, as even the most honest attempts to market this would somewhat be false due to how virtualization works. In the end, the only thing a provider can guarantee is that you can use 100% of your CPU all the time. They cannot guarantee that using 100% is truly 100% of the underlying core.

What? I paid this company several thousand euros. If the cores were not dedicated, I would have never purchased it. Dedicated cores means dedicated.
I just wanted dedicated cores. I never mentioned guaranteed performance. I never mentioned hash rate or complaining if one servers performance was worse than the other. Upwards of 95% of the CPU resources was being taken from me. That's the problem.

Did you even read what @labze has written?

Yes and I and no one else cares about the technicals. I wasn't complaining about core speed or high IO.

Enough with this technical jargon. If you advertise dedicated cores, it should be dedicated. Otherwise say it's shared.

If they could not provide the servers, then just reject the order and provide a refund. Don't provide the servers and then say you don't expect the clients to use the cores.

order is governed by terms and conditions. Since you have spent thousands, get professional advice by spending some more.

itsdeadjim · May 2024

@totally_not_banned said:

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said: but as a customer i only care about that i'm getting what i've paid for. If the provider employs voodoo magic or lucky charms to make it happen is not my problem.

I don't fully agree with this attitude, because if someone is so disconnected on how things work, ends up producing unnecessary misery to themselves and to others when things like this happen. Because things like this always happen. Let's call this attitude Cloud-Karen.

It pretty much depends on the situation. If there's some outage or a temporary problem... sure, shit happens but if i buy something and it by design can't deliver what i've ordered (like a dedicated product that's really just a shared product with a fancy name slapped on it)... nope, won't fly. There's a difference between natural limitations and plain over-promising. If what you have is a shared product and you can't at least make it work like a dedicated product don't call it such. If a provider does regardless it's their own personal mess and not the client's one.

At some point we should agree that by design providers like netcup, avoro, hetzner etc, offer 100% dedicated resources. Knowing how exactly this is achieved in an economic way, helps you to understand why ordering a large number of VMs can go wrong and how to fix it. Because at some point it will go wrong.

I had a similar issue with a provider (not for so large number though), and I ended up having 0% steal and extra free days for my trouble and a good service.

Having a Karen attitude like, I paid 100% dedicated where is my 100% dedicated, paypal dispute, fraudsters, never helped anyone. It's a loss-loss which is the definition of stupidity.

dataforest · May 2024

@online7237 said:
Yes and I and no one else cares about the technicals. I wasn't complaining about core speed or high IO.

Enough with this technical jargon. If you advertise dedicated cores, it should be dedicated. Otherwise say it's shared.

If they could not provide the servers, then just reject the order and provide a refund. Don't provide the servers and then say you don't expect the clients to use the cores.

Sleep on it and write to me tomorrow (via PM here or in the ticket) and then we'll find a solution.

online7237 · May 2024

@dataforest said:

@online7237 said:
I can't show any screenshots from today obviously since you took down all of the servers. By the way, those screenshots were taken after you said you did the migration. The time zones are different since I'm in Canada and I'm on Eastern Standard Time while the ticket times look like German time. You fixed nothing and already admitted to false advertising and fraud.

That is also not correct, please stick to the truth. We wrote that we had started the migrations, which took several hours (since we automatically migrate one VM after the other) and were only completed well after your Paypal cases. The VMs were taken offline because Paypal withheld the money in one case and the invoice was therefore no longer paid.

Stop lying. Look at the times of the screenshot. Some are hours after the last message in the ticket. You did not provide what was advertised. When I woke up, the servers were gone. The resources should be dedicated from the day they were delivered. And you also say that you can fake the steal time so there is no trust. I exposed the high steal which shows it was never dedicated. That is my point and what everyone in here is telling you that you seem to ignore.

totally_not_banned · May 2024

@labze said:
I would assume most just list services where they normally have plenty of stock as "unlimited".

Wouldn't have stopped them from realizing that trying to fulfill the order would break them and just hit the refund button maybe with a friendly apology attached about how that order is just to big to handle. In the tickets the providers even goes at lengths to state how their competition limits orders. I wonder why they do this. They probably just hate doing business. Yeah, that's likely it.

Judging a service provider by such a special situation is not fair.

Personally i don't. If i'm judging them by something it's the super defensive attitude and the smugness to actually taunt people get the local consumer protection watchdog involved over which at the very least isn't overly honest advertising. In these kinda cases it's always about the impression made on the customer. I actually don't enjoy shit like this but if someone just goes around pointing fingers at third parties while not owning up to their own fuck up, well...

The intended usage for these VMs would break the majority of providers terms of service, dedicated cores or not. A lot of hosts do not allow crypto due to various reason and they are usually well-founded as it usually includes abusive behavior either through high CPU usages, high IO usage or a combination.

Well, maybe but that changes exactly what here?

Many also seem to think that dedicated resources means guaranteed performance. As Advin has mentioned several times, then as the average CPU usage goes up across the board the average performs per thread goes down. This is due CPU thermal limits limiting the boost frequency, amongst other things. You'll often see chips advertised with a "all-core boost speed" and then a general indicating the highest expected boost speed.

Yeah, that's natural and would probably be universally accepted. Trying to house 200+ dedicated 4 core VMs on a single server is something different though.

dev_vps · May 2024

@online7237 said:

@dev_vps said:

@dev_vps said:

@online7237 said:
.... Also, you say your server is fine but you probably only use 5% of the CPU.

You never answered about use case for so many VDS

Why not one or two or three dedicated servers and vendor can help with proxmox and VDS on the dedicated server

waiting for your reply

For my use it was better to have many smaller servers than a bunch of more powerful servers.

anything to do with mining, or hashtag blocks or anything fancy

@online7237 said:
I already do have dedicated servers with hetzner but they limit how many I can order.
They only increase it after paying my bill each month, otherwise I would just stick with them.

How many dedicated servers were you looking for?
Did you explore any workaround such as @NetDynamics24

dataforest · May 2024

@online7237 said:
Stop lying. Look at the times of the screenshot. Some are hours after the last message in the ticket. You did not provide what was advertised. When I woke up, the servers were gone. The resources should be dedicated from the day they were delivered. And you also say that you can fake the steal time so there is no trust. I exposed the high steal which shows it was never dedicated. That is my point and what everyone in here is telling you that you seem to ignore.

I just made you an offer that you apparently don't want to accept. What I meant is that you can easily fake steal, a lot of people do that, but we don't. I don't know why trust should be lost, that we are honest - it doesn't make sense.

The servers were active until 5 p.m. German time, after which WHMCS automatically deactivated them (because Paypal withdrew the payments). But it wouldn't have been a problem to contact our support again and just ask if you could take a look at it after we'd finished our work - no problem at all and it would have been done in 5 minutes.

dataforest · May 2024

@online7237 said:
I already do have dedicated servers with hetzner but they limit how many I can order.
They only increase it after paying my bill each month, otherwise I would just stick with them.

Which wouldn't be allowed anyway, then we'll start again from the beginning...

online7237 · May 2024

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said:

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said: but as a customer i only care about that i'm getting what i've paid for. If the provider employs voodoo magic or lucky charms to make it happen is not my problem.

I don't fully agree with this attitude, because if someone is so disconnected on how things work, ends up producing unnecessary misery to themselves and to others when things like this happen. Because things like this always happen. Let's call this attitude Cloud-Karen.

It pretty much depends on the situation. If there's some outage or a temporary problem... sure, shit happens but if i buy something and it by design can't deliver what i've ordered (like a dedicated product that's really just a shared product with a fancy name slapped on it)... nope, won't fly. There's a difference between natural limitations and plain over-promising. If what you have is a shared product and you can't at least make it work like a dedicated product don't call it such. If a provider does regardless it's their own personal mess and not the client's one.

At some point we should agree that by design providers like netcup, avoro, hetzner etc, offer 100% dedicated resources. Knowing how exactly this is achieved in an economic way, helps you to understand why ordering a large number of VMs can go wrong and how to fix it. Because at some point it will go wrong.

I had a similar issue with a provider (not for so large number though), and I ended up having 0% steal and extra free days for my trouble and a good service.

Having a Karen attitude like, I paid 100% dedicated where is my 100% dedicated, paypal dispute, fraudsters, never helped anyone. It's a loss-loss which is the definition of stupidity.

I don't think you understand. When someone orders DEDICATED, it means only for me. The steal isn't even something neglible, like 2, it would go as high as 93. That's insane. I didn't even want to make a big fuss about this and just wanted a refund since it's not what is advertised. Instead this company gets admits its not dedicated, and then says no refund. The majority of the servers were not even delivered and they don't want to refund to products I didn't even touch. Is lying about a server being dedicated not fraud and false advertising?

itsdeadjim · May 2024

@online7237 said:

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said:

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said: but as a customer i only care about that i'm getting what i've paid for. If the provider employs voodoo magic or lucky charms to make it happen is not my problem.

I don't fully agree with this attitude, because if someone is so disconnected on how things work, ends up producing unnecessary misery to themselves and to others when things like this happen. Because things like this always happen. Let's call this attitude Cloud-Karen.

It pretty much depends on the situation. If there's some outage or a temporary problem... sure, shit happens but if i buy something and it by design can't deliver what i've ordered (like a dedicated product that's really just a shared product with a fancy name slapped on it)... nope, won't fly. There's a difference between natural limitations and plain over-promising. If what you have is a shared product and you can't at least make it work like a dedicated product don't call it such. If a provider does regardless it's their own personal mess and not the client's one.

At some point we should agree that by design providers like netcup, avoro, hetzner etc, offer 100% dedicated resources. Knowing how exactly this is achieved in an economic way, helps you to understand why ordering a large number of VMs can go wrong and how to fix it. Because at some point it will go wrong.

I had a similar issue with a provider (not for so large number though), and I ended up having 0% steal and extra free days for my trouble and a good service.

Having a Karen attitude like, I paid 100% dedicated where is my 100% dedicated, paypal dispute, fraudsters, never helped anyone. It's a loss-loss which is the definition of stupidity.

I don't think you understand. When someone orders DEDICATED, it means only for me. The steal isn't even something neglible, like 2, it would go as high as 93. That's insane. I didn't even want to make a big fuss about this and just wanted a refund since it's not what is advertised. Instead this company gets admits its not dedicated, and then says no refund. The majority of the servers were not even delivered and they don't want to refund to products I didn't even touch. Is lying about a server being dedicated not fraud and false advertising?

As avoro said, that was a spike that they didnt see it coming. I think that if you gave them some time the issue would have been resolved.

DataWagon · May 2024

At the end of the day, this is just a case of everyone's time being wasted due to poor communication.

The provider should have been upfront and known that they couldn't absorb this type of order. Everytime we get an order like this, the first thing I do is warn them that they can't spam the CPU 24/7, and it's not a good fit if they're doing crypto mining or something of the sorts.

The customer should have realized that trying to rent 1800+ vCores on budget $9 VPS plans is dumb, and there is clearly a reason that it costs over 5x more to rent equal resources from the same provider on dedicated servers.

totally_not_banned · May 2024

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said:

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said: but as a customer i only care about that i'm getting what i've paid for. If the provider employs voodoo magic or lucky charms to make it happen is not my problem.

I don't fully agree with this attitude, because if someone is so disconnected on how things work, ends up producing unnecessary misery to themselves and to others when things like this happen. Because things like this always happen. Let's call this attitude Cloud-Karen.

It pretty much depends on the situation. If there's some outage or a temporary problem... sure, shit happens but if i buy something and it by design can't deliver what i've ordered (like a dedicated product that's really just a shared product with a fancy name slapped on it)... nope, won't fly. There's a difference between natural limitations and plain over-promising. If what you have is a shared product and you can't at least make it work like a dedicated product don't call it such. If a provider does regardless it's their own personal mess and not the client's one.

At some point we should agree that by design providers like netcup, avoro, hetzner etc, offer 100% dedicated resources. Knowing how exactly this is achieved in an economic way, helps you to understand why ordering a large number of VMs can go wrong and how to fix it. Because at some point it will go wrong.

I had a similar issue with a provider (not for so large number though), and I ended up having 0% steal and extra free days for my trouble and a good service.

Having a Karen attitude like, I paid 100% dedicated where is my 100% dedicated, paypal dispute, fraudsters, never helped anyone. It's a loss-loss which is the definition of stupidity.

Well, 100% is a big number and of course insisting only exactly that is stupid. Something in the 90's would still be great value but it doesn't seem like to 200+ dedicated 4 core VMs on a single box where even making that.

I absolutely agree on the fraud accusation though. That's just bad style, even if i think the unwillingness to do a full or at least close to full refund over something that didn't work out for reasons outside of the clients control doesn't reflect too favorably.

online7237 · May 2024

@dataforest said:

@online7237 said:
Stop lying. Look at the times of the screenshot. Some are hours after the last message in the ticket. You did not provide what was advertised. When I woke up, the servers were gone. The resources should be dedicated from the day they were delivered. And you also say that you can fake the steal time so there is no trust. I exposed the high steal which shows it was never dedicated. That is my point and what everyone in here is telling you that you seem to ignore.

I just made you an offer that you apparently don't want to accept. What I meant is that you can easily fake steal, a lot of people do that, but we don't. I don't know why trust should be lost, that we are honest - it doesn't make sense.

The servers were active until 5 p.m. German time, after which WHMCS automatically deactivated them (because Paypal withdrew the payments). But it wouldn't have been a problem to contact our support again and just ask if you could take a look at it after we'd finished our work - no problem at all and it would have been done in 5 minutes.

The only offer I'm willing to accept is a full refund. If you were an honest company, you would do that and apologize about false advertising, and maybe add something on the page so people don't think the cores are dedicated so you avoid situations like this in the future.

dataforest · May 2024

@online7237 said:
I don't think you understand. When someone orders DEDICATED, it means only for me. The steal isn't even something neglible, like 2, it would go as high as 93. That's insane. I didn't even want to make a big fuss about this and just wanted a refund since it's not what is advertised. Instead this company gets admits its not dedicated, and then says no refund. The majority of the servers were not even delivered and they don't want to refund to products I didn't even touch. Is lying about a server being dedicated not fraud and false advertising?

Unfortunately, you are twisting the facts again. Please read our text again, we have addressed this in detail there: one order was delivered, two others partially, one of them was cancelled and the other will be cancelled.

MrRob · May 2024

@dev_vps said:
One thing I have noticed that GB5 score for 0.84 euro NetCup VPS is pretty consistent

https://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/3960131/#Comment_3960131
Geekbench 5 Benchmark Test:
---------------------------------
Test            | Value
                |
Single Core     | 455
Multi Core      | 461
Full Test       | https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/22504687

brother, I am an avoro customer for more than 1 year working with them, I don't use the cpu much, at most 0.20% per day.

But talking about this topic of dedicated cpu, I was looking to buy dedicated cpu for renders, and now that the topic of dedicated cpu was touched.

I was looking at the new cpu rootserver of avanou, unlike netcup that also seems good the “Root Server”, will it be more recommendable https://www.netcup.eu/bestellen/produkt.php?produkt=3694 ?

online7237 · May 2024

@dev_vps said:

@online7237 said:

@dev_vps said:

@dev_vps said:

@online7237 said:
.... Also, you say your server is fine but you probably only use 5% of the CPU.

You never answered about use case for so many VDS

Why not one or two or three dedicated servers and vendor can help with proxmox and VDS on the dedicated server

waiting for your reply

For my use it was better to have many smaller servers than a bunch of more powerful servers.

anything to do with mining, or hashtag blocks or anything fancy

@online7237 said:
I already do have dedicated servers with hetzner but they limit how many I can order.
They only increase it after paying my bill each month, otherwise I would just stick with them.

How many dedicated servers were you looking for?
Did you explore any workaround such as @NetDynamics24

No thanks I'll stick with hetzner. I'm not dealing with smaller companies or any resellers. No one can compete with them price wise anyways. I'd rather have fewer servers than deal with this situation again.

chakraxzz · May 2024

@itsdeadjim said:

@online7237 said:

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said:

@itsdeadjim said:

@totally_not_banned said: but as a customer i only care about that i'm getting what i've paid for. If the provider employs voodoo magic or lucky charms to make it happen is not my problem.

I don't fully agree with this attitude, because if someone is so disconnected on how things work, ends up producing unnecessary misery to themselves and to others when things like this happen. Because things like this always happen. Let's call this attitude Cloud-Karen.

It pretty much depends on the situation. If there's some outage or a temporary problem... sure, shit happens but if i buy something and it by design can't deliver what i've ordered (like a dedicated product that's really just a shared product with a fancy name slapped on it)... nope, won't fly. There's a difference between natural limitations and plain over-promising. If what you have is a shared product and you can't at least make it work like a dedicated product don't call it such. If a provider does regardless it's their own personal mess and not the client's one.

At some point we should agree that by design providers like netcup, avoro, hetzner etc, offer 100% dedicated resources. Knowing how exactly this is achieved in an economic way, helps you to understand why ordering a large number of VMs can go wrong and how to fix it. Because at some point it will go wrong.

I had a similar issue with a provider (not for so large number though), and I ended up having 0% steal and extra free days for my trouble and a good service.

Having a Karen attitude like, I paid 100% dedicated where is my 100% dedicated, paypal dispute, fraudsters, never helped anyone. It's a loss-loss which is the definition of stupidity.

I don't think you understand. When someone orders DEDICATED, it means only for me. The steal isn't even something neglible, like 2, it would go as high as 93. That's insane. I didn't even want to make a big fuss about this and just wanted a refund since it's not what is advertised. Instead this company gets admits its not dedicated, and then says no refund. The majority of the servers were not even delivered and they don't want to refund to products I didn't even touch. Is lying about a server being dedicated not fraud and false advertising?

As avoro said, that was a spike that they didnt see it coming. I think that if you gave them some time the issue would have been resolved.

he expects instant fix because he paid thousands. can't lose out on those crypto gainz

labze · May 2024

@totally_not_banned said: Wouldn't have stopped them from realizing that trying to fulfill the order would break them and just hit the refund button maybe with a friendly apology attached about how that order is just to big to handle. In the tickets the providers even goes at lengths to state how their competition limits orders. I wonder why they do this. They probably just hate doing business. Yeah, that's likely it.

I'd assume that they use automatic provisioning so not quite. But I do agree with potentially canceling the order when any issues presented itself.

@totally_not_banned said: Personally i don't. If i'm judging them by something it's the super defensive attitude and the smugness to actually taunt people get the local consumer protection watchdog involved over which at the very least isn't overly honest advertising. In these kinda cases it's always about the impression made on the customer. I actually don't enjoy shit like this but if someone just goes around pointing fingers at third parties while not owning up to their own fuck up, well...

Well, there seems to be contradictive statements going around. Being defensive is fine if they truly resolved the issue. According to dataforest it has been resolved by migrations. However, we'll likely not see evidence of this as OP refuses and has his services suspended due to PayPal disputes.

@totally_not_banned said: Well, maybe but that changes exactly what here?

That the intended purpose of the VMs generally isn't compatible with these kind of services and OP should get a dedicated server. There is a reason that most providers do not allow such usage, and this is a great example of why.

@totally_not_banned said: Yeah, that's natural and would probably be universally accepted. Trying to house 200+ dedicated 4 core VMs on a single server is something different though.

Sure, but load-balancing exists and seems like dataforest did make use of that as far as we are aware.

dataforest · May 2024

@totally_not_banned said:
I absolutely agree on the fraud accusation though. That's just bad style, even if i think the unwillingness to do a full or at least close to full refund over something that didn't work out for reasons outside of the clients control doesn't reflect too favorably.

Unfortunately, I have to repeat myself over and over again: there were three orders, one was fully refunded (despite the delivery of some VMs), the other (also delivery of some VMs) is fully refunded and with the first order we took care of everything, if the customer could not use the service for time X, then we refund those days too - no problem at all, it has nothing to do with fraud.

totally_not_banned · May 2024

@DataWagon said:
At the end of the day, this is just a case of everyone's time being wasted due to poor communication.

The provider should have been upfront and known that they couldn't absorb this type of order. Everytime we get an order like this, the first thing I do is warn them that they can't spam the CPU 24/7, and it's not a good fit if they're doing crypto mining or something of the sorts.

Exactly. Hetzner actually wanted to vet my use case before letting me deploy even a single maximum core VPS and i'd have to do this again if i wanted to deploy more than the mere handful of independent VMs they allow by default. I always thought this was just about people racking up huge bills and then skipping on paying them but there might be quite some dual use going on there.

online7237 · May 2024

@dataforest said:

@online7237 said:
I don't think you understand. When someone orders DEDICATED, it means only for me. The steal isn't even something neglible, like 2, it would go as high as 93. That's insane. I didn't even want to make a big fuss about this and just wanted a refund since it's not what is advertised. Instead this company gets admits its not dedicated, and then says no refund. The majority of the servers were not even delivered and they don't want to refund to products I didn't even touch. Is lying about a server being dedicated not fraud and false advertising?

Unfortunately, you are twisting the facts again. Please read our text again, we have addressed this in detail there: one order was delivered, two others partially, one of them was cancelled and the other will be cancelled.

I have not received any notification of any other refund from paypal. You can choose to close the cases and just refund but you refuse to. It shows you responded to 3 of the 4 cases I opened. I want a full refund including the fake 4 core dedicated servers you delivered.

Calin · May 2024

@labze said: been hit with this scenario lately due to some new Crypto scheme

Hey you know what it's this crypto name?We receive same amount of customers recently and we installed new servers on uptime.ihostart.com special just for this things

totally_not_banned · May 2024

@dataforest said:

@totally_not_banned said:
I absolutely agree on the fraud accusation though. That's just bad style, even if i think the unwillingness to do a full or at least close to full refund over something that didn't work out for reasons outside of the clients control doesn't reflect too favorably.

Unfortunately, I have to repeat myself over and over again: there were three orders, one was fully refunded (despite the delivery of some VMs), the other (also delivery of some VMs) is fully refunded and with the first order we took care of everything, if the customer could not use the service for time X, then we refund those days too - no problem at all, it has nothing to do with fraud.

Well, as @labze says it really comes down to if the problems were solved or not. You can't bill him if all he got was something he didn't order. Aside from the fact that if things weren't rectified in an acceptable time frame (i.e. non working solution could not been made to work) it's a massive loss of time and effort on the client's side due to no fault of their own.

dataforest · May 2024

@online7237 said:
I have not received any notification of any other refund from paypal. You can choose to close the cases and just refund but you refuse to. It shows you responded to 3 of the 4 cases I opened. I want a full refund including the fake 4 core dedicated servers you delivered.

First refund of one of your orders, about 24 hours ago. The second one (which is not answered yet) will be also fully refunded, that is precisely why it was not answered. The other order was fullfilled, your steal report was (indeed not correctly escalated) fixed over the night (long after your paypal cases).

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