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RIPE NCC now has ASN charge for 2025 Charging Scheme for LIRs

2

Comments

  • host_chost_c Patron Provider, Top Host, Megathread Squad
    edited May 2024

    @Swiftnode. I think that either you have a bad day or you are just bored on a Friday.

    Cheers!

  • SwiftnodeSwiftnode Member, Patron Provider, LIR

    @host_c said:
    @Swiftnode. I think that either you have a bad day or you are just bored on a Friday.

    Cheers!

    ???

  • kjartankjartan Member

    @Swiftnode said:
    So your issue has nothing to do with hobbyists, and everything to do with misconfigurations/idiots.

    This is even more ironic given that most damaging route leaks happen at firms with direct, sometimes unfiltered connections, to "T1s" + other unfiltered peering. A scenario that rarely applies to hobbyists :D

    Serverion had leaked more crap into the very real DFZ in a week then I have to the bgp.tools route since I started peering with it... lol.

  • isaraisara Member

    RIPE should put some layoff plan on the assembly, rather than make internet less available and less inclusive. Communicating with several RIPE representatives is pure pain, they have too much time asking unnecessary problems and simply ignore the customer.
    Even APNIC can do a much better job on communicating and allocating resources for non hosting businesses.
    Some hosting businesses owners should realize there are many other businesses are operating their network with multiple locations and using very different routing policies, jacking up ASN fee is a huge f* from RIPE.

  • @kjartan said: This is even more ironic given that most damaging route leaks happen at firms with direct, sometimes unfiltered connections, to "T1s" + other unfiltered peering. A scenario that rarely applies to hobbyists

    Even more ironically, you are a perfect example of everything wrong listed in this thread and everything that RIPE is trying to stop.

    - 429 RATE LIMITED 
       - AS215243
       - 1 /44 
    - KAUPTHING LTD
       - AS216212
       - 1 /44
       - Same upstreams as AS215243
    - ADVANCED MICRO DEFENCE TECHNOLOGIES LTD
       - AS47326
       - 1 /32, 2 /44
    - EDGESONIC (UK) SERVICES LIMITED
       - AS209806
       - 1 /40
       - Upstreams to his other ASN, AS47326
    - XENODE LIMITED
       - AS203232
       - 1 /36
       - 1 upstream
    - Northlayer ehf
       - AS59788 (not used)
       - AS213239 (not used)
    - Personal ASN #1
       - AS51019
       - 1 /24 on which FOUR IPs are used
       - 7 /48s (only 2 upstreams)
    - Personal ASN #2 
       - AS57851
       - 1 /36
    - Personal ASN #3
       - AS208548
       - 1 /38 and 2 /44
    

    Excluding the countless deadpools you were involved in, each one with its own LTD and ASN, you own 9.081444*10^28 IPv6 addresses and 10 ASNs. What a person does with that many addresses and ASNs, I will never be able to imagine. I hope this new rule hits you hard exactly where it hurts: your wallet.

  • SGrafSGraf Member, Patron Provider

    @Swiftnode said:
    Also, having the provider announce the IP space for you, under their ASN, means you do not get direct access to bgp communities, or prepending.

    can always do an "internal" bgp session for the client then strip the internal AS on export.
    (this way you keep most of the control, such as communities,...)

    Not a big deal in my opinion.

    Thanked by 2HostSlick host_c
  • kjartankjartan Member

    @sillycat said:

    @kjartan said: This is even more ironic given that most damaging route leaks happen at firms with direct, sometimes unfiltered connections, to "T1s" + other unfiltered peering. A scenario that rarely applies to hobbyists

    Even more ironically, you are a perfect example of everything wrong listed in this thread and everything that RIPE is trying to stop.

    - 429 RATE LIMITED 
       - AS215243
       - 1 /44 
    - KAUPTHING LTD
       - AS216212
       - 1 /44
       - Same upstreams as AS215243
    - ADVANCED MICRO DEFENCE TECHNOLOGIES LTD
       - AS47326
       - 1 /32, 2 /44
    - EDGESONIC (UK) SERVICES LIMITED
       - AS209806
       - 1 /40
       - Upstreams to his other ASN, AS47326
    - XENODE LIMITED
       - AS203232
       - 1 /36
       - 1 upstream
    - Northlayer ehf
       - AS59788 (not used)
       - AS213239 (not used)
    - Personal ASN #1
       - AS51019
       - 1 /24 on which FOUR IPs are used
       - 7 /48s (only 2 upstreams)
    - Personal ASN #2 
       - AS57851
       - 1 /36
    - Personal ASN #3
       - AS208548
       - 1 /38 and 2 /44
    

    Excluding the countless deadpools you were involved in, each one with its own LTD and ASN, you own 9.081444*10^28 IPv6 addresses and 10 ASNs. What a person does with that many addresses and ASNs, I will never be able to imagine. I hope this new rule hits you hard exactly where it hurts: your wallet.

    Thanks for doing my audit for me. You missed AS211350 and AS206444 though, if we're counting ASNs that aren't mine.

    But in all seriousness, if RIPE were trying to stop people from holding multiple ASNs they would enact that policy directly.

  • @host_c said:
    @Swiftnode

    for me hobbyists = have no clue what TCP/UDP is, or what the heck is an ASN, for them BGP is some entity like FBI. I will not dive in MTU and other.

    Now, you really want these to do IP Routing or BGP sessions globally? so they can do what, announce 192.168.0.0/24 in BGP? Or even better, some get to do "hosting" services with a cool website while having no idea how the god damn internet works, but they got lucky by the answer GPT gave them to the question:

    I have ASN 34454 and sub-net 199.87.22.0/24, show me how to set up my Cisco Catalyst 4849 ROUTER and publish this via BGP to 98.66.7.8 with ASN 45322

    And bang, the dude is a provider in 5 minutes of copy-paste.

    Now RIPE TAX is not the solution for all the problems of the above, but it will cut a few GPT users off the table.

    EDIT:

    If you want to test/play with ASN and BGP, with that 50 EUR you can get 3 CISCO/JUNOS/ARISTA/OTHER 100MBS devices from e-bay and learn to do things right, who knows, one might actually like it and invest in some classes, then he/she/it gets a LIR and ASN and becomes the next HIT on the net and all this with a few USD in crappy 20 year old devices.

    The funniest part of this post is the fact that many hobbyists I know have a better router than you.

  • MumblyMumbly Member
    edited May 2024

    @HostSlick said: And you didnt got what i was saying

    I know what you said, but you're still wrong. You don't own internets - you're here to make a living from it and there's nothing wrong with that, but still... Your right to earn on the internet isn't above my right to learn, test, explore on the internet ... and of course vice versa.

    @Swiftnode said: @host_c said:
    BGP, Routed Sub-nets Globally, ASN, none of them are for hobby, nor for exploring, that is not their use case.

    Says who?

    Exactly! Says who?

    @host_c said:
    @Swiftnode. I think that either you have a bad day or you are just bored on a Friday.

    Cheers!

    He's correct, though, unless you believe that businesses should exclusively own the internet.
    We (I as a hobbyist and you as a business) coexist here.
    Furthermore, to run your business, you most likely even use some protocols and solutions invented by hobbyists.

  • @sillycat said:

    @kjartan said: This is even more ironic given that most damaging route leaks happen at firms with direct, sometimes unfiltered connections, to "T1s" + other unfiltered peering. A scenario that rarely applies to hobbyists

    Even more ironically, you are a perfect example of everything wrong listed in this thread and everything that RIPE is trying to stop.

    - 429 RATE LIMITED 
       - AS215243
       - 1 /44 
    - KAUPTHING LTD
       - AS216212
       - 1 /44
       - Same upstreams as AS215243
    - ADVANCED MICRO DEFENCE TECHNOLOGIES LTD
       - AS47326
       - 1 /32, 2 /44
    - EDGESONIC (UK) SERVICES LIMITED
       - AS209806
       - 1 /40
       - Upstreams to his other ASN, AS47326
    - XENODE LIMITED
       - AS203232
       - 1 /36
       - 1 upstream
    - Northlayer ehf
       - AS59788 (not used)
       - AS213239 (not used)
    - Personal ASN #1
       - AS51019
       - 1 /24 on which FOUR IPs are used
       - 7 /48s (only 2 upstreams)
    - Personal ASN #2 
       - AS57851
       - 1 /36
    - Personal ASN #3
       - AS208548
       - 1 /38 and 2 /44
    

    Excluding the countless deadpools you were involved in, each one with its own LTD and ASN, you own 9.081444*10^28 IPv6 addresses and 10 ASNs. What a person does with that many addresses and ASNs, I will never be able to imagine. I hope this new rule hits you hard exactly where it hurts: your wallet.

    Just wondering, how do you know how many IPs they are using on their /24?

  • @host_c said:
    Let's agree to disagree. I do not want "hobbyists" in BGP, hence "hobbyists" do not need an ASN nor a sub-net.

    If anyone wishes to take a hobby to the next level, 50 EUR/Y is not a deal-breaker. Nor a LIR.

    Seems RIPE found a way to probably trash a few thousand inactive ASN, good for them and also in the long run, good for everybody.

    It is not about free speech or the internet, this has nothing to do with that.

    A hobbyists will pay premium for he/she/it's hobby, for example fishing, hunting, golf, car tuning and so on, none of them are cheap and most of them are over 50 EUR / YR as expense.

    Some sort of order needs to exist, otherwise chaos will step in and there is no performance in chaos.

    Paying a X amount of TAX(subscription) / YR usually drives away unwanted "hobbyists" and those that take serious things as a game/joke/fun. I think the intent is to drive these away and has nothing to do with the internet or multi national corporations. ( the later have enough money to do whatever they want anyway and not even a 50K USD / LIR tax would be a problem for most)

    Also wondering, your ASN 211462 seems to be singlehomed... current RIPE policy says AS's must be multihomed to qualify for an ASN. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to be breaking policy while complaining about others? (https://bgp.tools/as/211462#connectivity)

  • @kjartan said: But in all seriousness, if RIPE were trying to stop people from holding multiple ASNs they would enact that policy directly.

    They are just trying to make getting ASNs for no reason (what you are doing) more painful, which that extra 50 euros is clearly doing.

    @andrewnyr said: Just wondering, how do you know how many IPs they are using on their /24?

    Only 185.242.186.1 - 185.242.186.4 are pingable.

    Thanked by 1HostSlick
  • @sillycat said:

    @kjartan said: But in all seriousness, if RIPE were trying to stop people from holding multiple ASNs they would enact that policy directly.

    They are just trying to make getting ASNs for no reason (what you are doing) more painful, which that extra 50 euros is clearly doing.

    @andrewnyr said: Just wondering, how do you know how many IPs they are using on their /24?

    Only 185.242.186.1 - 185.242.186.4 are pingable.

    Yes, firewalls exist and a lot of the world has net admins who block ICMP on addresses. In fact many enterprises block ICMP too, if you use that as a metric of usage you will soon find many "real companies" don't seem to use their space at all!

    Thanked by 1ketchup
  • kjartankjartan Member

    @sillycat said:

    @kjartan said: But in all seriousness, if RIPE were trying to stop people from holding multiple ASNs they would enact that policy directly.

    ... (what you are doing) ...

    You know this how? :D

    @sillycat said:

    @andrewnyr said: Just wondering, how do you know how many IPs they are using on their /24?

    Only 185.242.186.1 - 185.242.186.4 are pingable.

    I heard this forum doesn't tolerate "scanners". I don't care much myself. But are you "admitting" to scanning in here? lol

  • The last RIPE meeting was full of drama with Russians paying their memberships in cash at backrooms and Chinese guy having a rant speech in front everyone about subnet costs.

    Thanked by 3kait HostSlick Shade
  • host_chost_c Patron Provider, Top Host, Megathread Squad

    @stefeman said:
    The last RIPE meeting was full of drama with Russians paying their memberships in cash at backrooms and Chinese guy having a rant speech in front everyone about subnet costs.

    :D :D

  • kevindskevinds Member, LIR

    @sillycat said:
    Only 185.242.186.1 - 185.242.186.4 are pingable.

    Try that with our IPs, you'll find you can't ping ones that you may have been able to in the past.

    Firewall doesn't act kindly to scanners.

    Thanked by 1kjartan
  • sillycatsillycat Member
    edited May 2024

    @andrewnyr said:

    @sillycat said:

    @kjartan said: But in all seriousness, if RIPE were trying to stop people from holding multiple ASNs they would enact that policy directly.

    They are just trying to make getting ASNs for no reason (what you are doing) more painful, which that extra 50 euros is clearly doing.

    @andrewnyr said: Just wondering, how do you know how many IPs they are using on their /24?

    Only 185.242.186.1 - 185.242.186.4 are pingable.

    Yes, firewalls exist and a lot of the world has net admins who block ICMP on addresses. In fact many enterprises block ICMP too, if you use that as a metric of usage you will soon find many "real companies" don't seem to use their space at all!

    Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. Kjartan just coincidentally set up PTR only on those IPs, and only those IPs run services accessible from the Internet. Thanks for letting me know.

    image

    @kjartan said: You know this how?

    Once again, I apologize. I'm more than certain that all 12 ASNs have legitimate purposes in mind. In my personal life, I've also experienced times when I needed to create one UK company per month, make an ASN with it along with a /44, and then upstream it to the three upstreams I always use. It happens to me every day.

  • kevindskevinds Member, LIR

    @host_c said:
    Let's agree to disagree. I do not want "hobbyists" in BGP, hence "hobbyists" do not need an ASN nor a sub-net.

    If anyone wishes to take a hobby to the next level, 50 EUR/Y is not a deal-breaker. Nor a LIR.

    A hobbyists will pay premium for he/she/it's hobby, for example fishing, hunting, golf, car tuning and so on, none of them are cheap and most of them are over 50 EUR / YR as expense.

    Since you don't want "hobbyists" in BGP why not make it €50k/year?

    @HostSlick said:
    Those single-homed ones who are not even doing bgp themself but where the Provider does it for them.
    You can find loads of them even via bgp.tools.
    I dont have a example right now but recently been boring and messing arround, found a Bunch.

    With that metric, you are going to include networks that have one transit provider and connected to an unlimited number of exchanges.

    @host_c said:
    EDIT:

    If you want to test/play with ASN and BGP, with that 50 EUR you can get 3 CISCO/JUNOS/ARISTA/OTHER 100MBS devices from e-bay and learn to do things right, who knows, one might actually like it and invest in some classes, then he/she/it gets a LIR and ASN and becomes the next HIT on the net and all this with a few USD in crappy 20 year old devices.

    For exploring and learning either take some classes or get some devices from ebay and do as I wrote.

    No, that will not be enough to learn to do things right, not even close, if anything, those people are worse, because they believe they understand it.

    The lab is not the real world..

    With routers with only 100mbps ports even have enough memory to hold a single copy of the global routing table?

    Hobbyists rarely have broken the internet.. It has been the big players doing that.

  • kjartankjartan Member

    @sillycat said:
    Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. Kjartan just coincidentally set up PTR only on those IPs, and only those IPs run services accessible from the Internet. Thanks for letting me know.

    Publicly facing services do tend to be the only ones that require a valid PTR...

    Did you know that the most specific prefix length that is routable in DFZ is /24?

  • yoursunnyyoursunny Member, IPv6 Advocate

    AS200690 LowEndASN will be going dark, as soon as LIR sends an invoice.
    It's fun when it lasted.

    Thanked by 1lowendtalkxdax
  • @andrewnyr said: Also wondering, your ASN 211462 seems to be singlehomed... current RIPE policy says AS's must be multihomed to qualify for an ASN. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to be breaking policy while complaining about others? (https://bgp.tools/as/211462#connectivity)

    >

    Weird how you ignored this @host_c

    If > @sillycat said:

    @andrewnyr said:

    @sillycat said:

    @kjartan said: But in all seriousness, if RIPE were trying to stop people from holding multiple ASNs they would enact that policy directly.

    They are just trying to make getting ASNs for no reason (what you are doing) more painful, which that extra 50 euros is clearly doing.

    @andrewnyr said: Just wondering, how do you know how many IPs they are using on their /24?

    Only 185.242.186.1 - 185.242.186.4 are pingable.

    Yes, firewalls exist and a lot of the world has net admins who block ICMP on addresses. In fact many enterprises block ICMP too, if you use that as a metric of usage you will soon find many "real companies" don't seem to use their space at all!

    Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. Kjartan just coincidentally set up PTR only on those IPs, and only those IPs run services accessible from the Internet. Thanks for letting me know.

    image

    @kjartan said: You know this how?

    Once again, I apologize. I'm more than certain that all 12 ASNs have legitimate purposes in mind. In my personal life, I've also experienced times when I needed to create one UK company per month, make an ASN with it along with a /44, and then upstream it to the three upstreams I always use. It happens to me every day.

    Lol, so let me get this straight… you want all addresses to not only be pingable, but also have valid RDNS, and be listed publicly on an IP scanning website? 🤣

  • AndreixAndreix Member, Host Rep
    edited May 2024

    @host_c said:
    @Swiftnode. I think that either you have a bad day or you are just bored on a Friday.

    Cheers!

    Tbh, I read all your answers and @HostSlick's here regarding BGP hobbyists and I am stunned how arrogant you two chose to be, whilst @Swiftnode kept showing you, very clear, how wrong you are.

    I think your problem is not the hobbyists themselves. Your problem is that you believe of yourself to be such a big and important provider, that you get to say who has the right to experiment with internet numbers and who doesn't.

    Internet is free for all. Information itself is free. The work put into collecting information, synthesize it and apply the outcome to a certain task is the biggest part in a sysadmin's experience. So, today's hobbyist, holding an ASN with a /64 v6 and a PC in a garage, may be the tomorrow's Google founder.

    Also, I was curious to see how multi-homed your ASN is: AS211462 Host-C -> AS8708 RCS-RDS S.A. You're not even in a real neutral Datacenter, but a RCS/DIGI proprietary facility in Oradea, giving 5$/y deals to LET users.
    To me, your network looks like a single-homed hobbyist's network (as per the general idea propagated in here).

    So, as one said in here long time ago: "look in your own garden".

    Take care! :)

  • kaitkait Member

    iFog is one of the first that chanced prices https://ifog.ch/en/ip/lir-services 77 CHF/y.

    Thanked by 2ruben sillycat
  • AndreixAndreix Member, Host Rep
    edited May 2024

    @kait said:
    iFog is one of the first that chanced prices https://ifog.ch/en/ip/lir-services 77 CHF/y.

    Let's hope you won't have to wait for months for him as I had... I almost lost my numbers due to his lack of professionalism.
    Found another LIR and got the resources sponsored, even faster than he processed my refund.

  • kaitkait Member

    @Andreix said: Let's hope you won't have to wait for months for him as I had... I almost lost my numbers due to his lack of professionalism.

    Found another LIR and got the resources sponsored, even faster than he processed my refund.

    Yeah, I am also moving my ASN, got a good LIR that can do it for cheap.

    Thanked by 2Andreix sillycat
  • VexeliaVexelia Member

    @kait said:

    @Andreix said: Let's hope you won't have to wait for months for him as I had... I almost lost my numbers due to his lack of professionalism.

    Found another LIR and got the resources sponsored, even faster than he processed my refund.

    Yeah, I am also moving my ASN, got a good LIR that can do it for cheap.

    Any recommendations? :)

  • kaitkait Member
    edited May 2024

    @Vexelia said: Any recommendations? :)

    Not many providers have listed the new prices yet, so idk.

    Might need to make a discussion for people who are looking for a good price when multiple LIR's have published the new prices.

    Thanked by 2sh97 Vexelia
  • AndreixAndreix Member, Host Rep

    @Vexelia said:

    @kait said:

    @Andreix said: Let's hope you won't have to wait for months for him as I had... I almost lost my numbers due to his lack of professionalism.

    Found another LIR and got the resources sponsored, even faster than he processed my refund.

    Yeah, I am also moving my ASN, got a good LIR that can do it for cheap.

    Any recommendations? :)

    I am quite happy with Staclar, Inc.

  • @kait said:
    iFog is one of the first that chanced prices https://ifog.ch/en/ip/lir-services 77 CHF/y.

    Huh, I wonder if it will affect me as an "existing customer". I was ordering an AS from them last year and was quite happy about the one-time-fee only.

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