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RIPE NCC now has ASN charge for 2025 Charging Scheme for LIRs
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RIPE NCC now has ASN charge for 2025 Charging Scheme for LIRs

breachedbreached Member

RIPE 88 took place this weekend, and RIPE members voted on a charging scheme. There was 3 models: Model A, Model B, and Model C.

Option C, introduced a LIR Fee Increase of 16.13%, a Independent Internet Number Resource Fee Increase of 50% & a addition of an ASN fee.

This is the fee comparison for Model C:

Ripe NCC's voting result came in, and very closely members voted Model B, but the winner ended up being Model C.

LIRs now have to pay a €50 fee for each ASN per year, and now have to pay €75 (compared to €50) for independent IP assignments.

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Comments

  • kaitkait Member

    Sucks ass for the people like Zappie who now have to pay 15k EUR to RIPE for his 300 ASN sponsorships.

  • Jack_SBEJack_SBE Member, Patron Provider

    i hate ripe

  • LeviLevi Member

    What's the motivation behind 50 EUR charge besides greed?

    Thanked by 2breached BasToTheMax
  • AndreixAndreix Member, Host Rep

    @Levi said:
    What's the motivation behind 50 EUR charge besides greed?

    The usual "operational fees" and "expenses in running RIPE tools".

    Thanked by 2host_c BasToTheMax
  • kaitkait Member

    @Levi said: What's the motivation behind 50 EUR charge besides greed?

    With the current projections they would go bust in like 4-5 years or so.

    Thanked by 1sillycat
  • NoPKTNoPKT Member, LIR

    Maybe I misunderstood? Here is the original text of Scheme C:

    Option C - Charging Scheme as is with a 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75), and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment.

    It should be a one-time fee at the time of assignment, not an annual holding fee, right?

    Thanked by 1yoursunny
  • xyl0nxyl0n Member

    Thanked by 1Calin
  • kaitkait Member

    @NoPKT said: It should be a one-time fee at the time of assignment, not an annual holding fee, right?

    No, ASNs are the same as PI, it all gets lumped into your annual fee.

    Thanked by 1Andreix
  • AndreixAndreix Member, Host Rep

    @NoPKT said:
    Maybe I misunderstood? Here is the original text of Scheme C:

    Option C - Charging Scheme as is with a 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75), and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment.

    It should be a one-time fee at the time of assignment, not an annual holding fee, right?

    Remember: If there's a vague definition that can be interpreted, RIPE will always interpret it in their favor.
    Ofc, a judge will most likely to do it the other way, but it's a long way till there.

    Thanked by 1Swiftnode
  • HostSlickHostSlick Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    @NoPKT said:
    Maybe I misunderstood? Here is the original text of Scheme C:

    Option C - Charging Scheme as is with a 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75), and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment.

    It should be a one-time fee at the time of assignment, not an annual holding fee, right?

    That 50€ is yearly for every ASN assigned to you.

    Shouldnt be a Problem. Otherwise, Peoples need to Think twice If they really Need a ASN. There are alot of hobbyist ASNs nowdays which doesnt make Sense to even have.

  • xyl0nxyl0n Member

    @HostSlick said:

    @NoPKT said:
    Maybe I misunderstood? Here is the original text of Scheme C:

    Option C - Charging Scheme as is with a 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75), and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment.

    It should be a one-time fee at the time of assignment, not an annual holding fee, right?

    That 50€ is yearly for every ASN assigned to you.

    Shouldnt be a Problem. Otherwise, Peoples need to Think twice If they really Need a ASN. There are alot of hobbyist ASNs nowdays which doesnt make Sense to even have.

    the internet should have more "hobbyists" and not getting controlled by tax free ruled multi national corporations, what a complete nonsense you writing, you did not get the idea of the internet.

  • HostSlickHostSlick Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    @xyl0n said:

    @HostSlick said:

    @NoPKT said:
    Maybe I misunderstood? Here is the original text of Scheme C:

    Option C - Charging Scheme as is with a 16.13% price increase for the annual contribution per LIR account (EUR 1,800), a 50% price increase for Independent Internet number resource assignments* (EUR 75), and a new AS Numbers fee of EUR 50 per assignment.

    It should be a one-time fee at the time of assignment, not an annual holding fee, right?

    That 50€ is yearly for every ASN assigned to you.

    Shouldnt be a Problem. Otherwise, Peoples need to Think twice If they really Need a ASN. There are alot of hobbyist ASNs nowdays which doesnt make Sense to even have.

    the internet should have more "hobbyists" and not getting controlled by tax free ruled multi national corporations, what a complete nonsense you writing, you did not get the idea of the internet.

    And you didnt got what i was saying. Nothing Against hobbyists.

    But i dont Care.
    Everyone has his own opinion About it :tongue:

    Thanked by 2host_c sillycat
  • CalinCalin Member, Patron Provider

    @xyl0n said: the internet should have more "hobbyists" and not getting controlled by tax free ruled multi national corporations, what a complete nonsense you writing, you did not get the idea of the internet.

    >

    True

  • SwiftnodeSwiftnode Member, Host Rep, LIR

    @HostSlick said:
    There are alot of hobbyist ASNs nowdays which doesnt make Sense to even have.

    Why doesn't it make sense to have hobbyist ASNs?

    Thanked by 1Mumbly
  • host_chost_c Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    Let's agree to disagree. I do not want "hobbyists" in BGP, hence "hobbyists" do not need an ASN nor a sub-net.

    If anyone wishes to take a hobby to the next level, 50 EUR/Y is not a deal-breaker. Nor a LIR.

    Seems RIPE found a way to probably trash a few thousand inactive ASN, good for them and also in the long run, good for everybody.

    It is not about free speech or the internet, this has nothing to do with that.

    A hobbyists will pay premium for he/she/it's hobby, for example fishing, hunting, golf, car tuning and so on, none of them are cheap and most of them are over 50 EUR / YR as expense.

    Some sort of order needs to exist, otherwise chaos will step in and there is no performance in chaos.

    Paying a X amount of TAX(subscription) / YR usually drives away unwanted "hobbyists" and those that take serious things as a game/joke/fun. I think the intent is to drive these away and has nothing to do with the internet or multi national corporations. ( the later have enough money to do whatever they want anyway and not even a 50K USD / LIR tax would be a problem for most)

    Thanked by 3Kris HostSlick sillycat
  • HostSlickHostSlick Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    @Swiftnode said:

    @HostSlick said:
    There are alot of hobbyist ASNs nowdays which doesnt make Sense to even have.

    Why doesn't it make sense to have hobbyist ASNs?

    I mean Those with Like one single v4/V6 range or so announced example.
    Those single-homed ones who are not even doing bgp themself but where the Provider does it for them.
    You can find loads of them even via bgp.tools.
    I dont have a example right now but recently been boring and messing arround, found a Bunch.

    I even had such requests in The past.

    For me it just doesnt make Sense to have one If you Not at least do bgp yourself (example: learning). You could Just have your Provider announce The IP space directly. Same outcome.

    There are some (Not all) cases where it doesnt make Sense to me. to have a ASN.

    Or May someone enlighten me?

    Thanked by 1host_c
  • HostSlickHostSlick Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    @host_c said:
    Let's agree to disagree. I do not want "hobbyists" in BGP, hence "hobbyists" do not need an ASN nor a sub-net.

    If anyone wishes to take a hobby to the next level, 50 EUR/Y is not a deal-breaker. Nor a LIR.

    Seems RIPE found a way to probably trash a few thousand inactive ASN, good for them and also in the long run, good for everybody.

    It is not about free speech or the internet, this has nothing to do with that.

    A hobbyists will pay premium for he/she/it's hobby, for example fishing, hunting, golf, car tuning and so on, none of them are cheap and most of them are over 50 EUR / YR as expense.

    Some sort of order needs to exist, otherwise chaos will step in and there is no performance in chaos.

    Paying a X amount of TAX(subscription) / YR usually drives away unwanted "hobbyists" and those that take serious things as a game/joke/fun. I think the intent is to drive these away and has nothing to do with the internet or multi national corporations. ( the later have enough money to do whatever they want anyway and not even a 50K USD / LIR tax would be a problem for most)

    Yes, exactly

    I think in that case The Option C is still The best Option Out of all options

    Thanked by 1host_c
  • SwiftnodeSwiftnode Member, Host Rep, LIR

    @HostSlick said:

    @Swiftnode said:

    @HostSlick said:
    There are alot of hobbyist ASNs nowdays which doesnt make Sense to even have.

    Why doesn't it make sense to have hobbyist ASNs?

    I mean Those with Like one single v4/V6 range or so announced example.
    Those single-homed ones who are not even doing bgp themself but where the Provider does it for them.
    You can find loads of them even via bgp.tools.
    I dont have a example right now but recently been boring and messing arround, found a Bunch.

    For me it just doesnt make Sense to have one If you Not at least do bgp yourself. You could Just have your Provider announce The IP space directly. Same outcome.

    I asked you why, and you respond with "you can find loads of them on bgp.tools," as if you think I told you they did not exist, I'm very aware they exist.

    If they have a v4/v6 range announced under their ASN, regardless of being single-homed, they're are doing their own BGP.

    Also, having the provider announce the IP space for you, under their ASN, means you do not get direct access to bgp communities, or prepending.

    Neither you or @host_c has actually answered why you do not want hobbyists. You're both just repeating that you do not want them, as if it's an answer.

  • host_chost_c Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    @Swiftnode

    for me hobbyists = have no clue what TCP/UDP is, or what the heck is an ASN, for them BGP is some entity like FBI. I will not dive in MTU and other.

    Now, you really want these to do IP Routing or BGP sessions globally? so they can do what, announce 192.168.0.0/24 in BGP? Or even better, some get to do "hosting" services with a cool website while having no idea how the god damn internet works, but they got lucky by the answer GPT gave them to the question:

    I have ASN 34454 and sub-net 199.87.22.0/24, show me how to set up my Cisco Catalyst 4849 ROUTER and publish this via BGP to 98.66.7.8 with ASN 45322

    And bang, the dude is a provider in 5 minutes of copy-paste.

    Now RIPE TAX is not the solution for all the problems of the above, but it will cut a few GPT users off the table.

    EDIT:

    If you want to test/play with ASN and BGP, with that 50 EUR you can get 3 CISCO/JUNOS/ARISTA/OTHER 100MBS devices from e-bay and learn to do things right, who knows, one might actually like it and invest in some classes, then he/she/it gets a LIR and ASN and becomes the next HIT on the net and all this with a few USD in crappy 20 year old devices.

    Thanked by 1sillycat
  • HostSlickHostSlick Member, Patron Provider

    @Swiftnode said:

    @HostSlick said:

    @Swiftnode said:

    If they have a v4/v6 range announced under their ASN, regardless of being single-homed, they're are doing their own BGP.

    Doesnt have to be the case that they do their own bgp. It can be Their Provider doing it for them. Without them having own Router. And then they dont have access either to Control anything. Neither your mentioned bgp Communities or prepending. So as said, Outcome = Same.

    Thanked by 1sillycat
  • host_chost_c Member, Patron Provider

    @HostSlick said:

    @Swiftnode said:

    @HostSlick said:

    @Swiftnode said:

    If they have a v4/v6 range announced under their ASN, regardless of being single-homed, they're are doing their own BGP.

    Doesnt have to be the case that they do their own bgp. It can be Their Provider doing it for them. Without them having own Router. And then they dont have access either to Control anything. Neither your mentioned bgp Communities or prepending. So as said, Outcome = Same.

    I actually tell people to ask their upstream provider to do the BGP if they own a sub-net in case they do not understand the concepts of Routing and Filtering. It is much safer this way, alto we all have cases of up-stream's that do a shitty job in BGP.

    Thanked by 1sillycat
  • SwiftnodeSwiftnode Member, Host Rep, LIR

    @host_c said:
    @Swiftnode

    for me hobbyists = have no clue what TCP/UDP is, or what the heck is an ASN, for them BGP is some entity like FBI. I will not dive in MTU and other.

    Now, you really want these to do IP Publishing or BGP sessions globally? so they can do what, announce 192.168.0.0/24 in BGP? Or even better, some get to do "hosting" services with a cool website while having no idea how the god damn internet works, but they got lucky by the answer GPT gave them to the question:

    I have ASN 34454 and sub-net 199.87.22.0/24, show me how to set up my Cisco Catalyst 4849 ROUTER and publish this via BGP to 98.66.7.8 with ASN 45322

    And bang, the dude is a provider in 5 minutes of copy-paste.

    Now RIPE TAX is not the solution for all the problems of the above, but it will cut a few GPT users off the table.

    So your issue has nothing to do with hobbyists, and everything to do with misconfigurations/idiots.

    If they have a single v4/v6 range announced, there is like a 99% chance their upstream is egress filtering rpki/irr and bogons/martians anyway, so it won't matter if they announce 192.168.0.0/24, as it'll just get filtered.

    Plus, you should be filtering those on ingress regardless.

    The argument that we shouldn't have hobbyists because they might make mistakes/misconfigurations, or they might be dumb, completely ignores the fact that big providers hire idiots, and people who make mistakes as well.

    @HostSlick said:
    Doesnt have to be the case that they do their own bgp. It can be Their Provider doing it for them. Without them having own Router. And then they dont have access either to Control anything. Neither your mentioned bgp Communities or prepending. So as said, Outcome = Same.

    If it's the provider managing the BGP announcements instead of the hobbyist, then what issue do you have with the hobbyist?

    Do you guys think about anything you're saying before hitting that submit button?

  • stefemanstefeman Member
    edited May 24

    Which was the option that enforces heavy ass costs for those holding tons of large subnets (big ISPs, Ford, etc). (i.e the more you hoard, the more you pay).

  • HostSlickHostSlick Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    @Swiftnode said:

    @HostSlick said:
    Doesnt have to be the case that they do their own bgp. It can be Their Provider doing it for them. Without them having own Router. And then they dont have access either to Control anything. Neither your mentioned bgp Communities or prepending. So as said, Outcome = Same.

    If it's the provider managing the BGP announcements instead of the hobbyist, then what issue do you have with the hobbyist?

    Do you guys think about anything you're saying before hitting that submit button?

    No issues with hobbyists, as said generally.
    As Said for me it doesnt make Sense in some cases to have ASN. Technically. Or enlighten me please?

    I could ask you the same.

  • host_chost_c Member, Patron Provider

    @Swiftnode

    Define me your concept of hobbyist.

  • SwiftnodeSwiftnode Member, Host Rep, LIR

    @host_c said:
    @Swiftnode

    Define me your concept of hobbyist.

    Someone who in their free time is learning and exploring/implementing BGP at a significantly smaller scale than most established companies/providers.

    Based on your previous posts you seem to have issues with;

    1. People who have 1 ASN, with a single v4/v6 announcement.
    2. People who are single homed.
    3. People who misconfigure their announcements. (eg. bogons/martians)

    None of which is particularly isolated or unique to hobbyists, but may be more prevalent among them. But none of which should bar them from participating in my book.

    It seems like a few people here, who started as hobbyists themselves, now want to pull the ladder up behind them.. seems quite elitist to celebrate taxing out hobbyists after you got yours.

    And for what it's worth, this RIPE change doesn't impact me at all, all my assets are in ARIN region, so I was already paying a year fee for it anyway.

  • host_chost_c Member, Patron Provider
    edited May 24

    @Swiftnode said:

    @host_c said:
    @Swiftnode

    Define me your concept of hobbyist.

    Someone who in their free time is learning and exploring/implementing BGP at a significantly smaller scale than most established companies/providers.

    Based on your previous posts you seem to have issues with;

    1. People who have 1 ASN, with a single v4/v6 announcement.
    2. People who are single homed.
    3. People who misconfigure their announcements. (eg. bogons/martians)

    None of which is particularly isolated or unique to hobbyists, but may be more prevalent among them. But none of which should bar them from participating in my book.

    It seems like a few people here, who started as hobbyists themselves, now want to pull the ladder up behind them.. seems quite elitist to celebrate taxing out hobbyists after you got yours.

    And for what it's worth, this RIPE change doesn't impact me at all, all my assets are in ARIN region, so I was already paying a year fee for it anyway.

    Oh, i did not see this coming :D walked right into it.

    What seems here is that you just like to draw conclusions, but none asked for them. With the limited information you have on hand the outcome of your conclusion flawed.

    I do not get why are you so on to this subject.

    BGP, Globally Routed Sub-Nets, ASN, none of them are for hobby, nor for exploring, that is not their use case.

    For exploring and learning either take some classes or get some devices from ebay and do as I wrote.

    If you wish to do BGP and rely on upstream Filtering, one is just playing a game of luck not of knowledge and that is not even a hobbyist, as those do some reading for their hobby.

    All of this has nothing to do with starting low and trying now to pull the ladder up behind them, we all start low or from a hobby, none of us was born with the knowledge to do networking. ( and most of us did not play around in production environment when doing BGP or Networking )

    Either you know what you are doing or not, it is that simple, otherwise one is just consuming bandwidth and cpu time on the one doing the filtering and ip transport.

    Thanked by 1sillycat
  • kaitkait Member

    @stefeman said:
    Which was the option that enforces heavy ass costs for those holding tons of large subnets (big ISPs, Ford, etc). (i.e the more you hoard, the more you pay).

    Best option but RIPE wants to treat everyone equal no matter how tiny or large you are.

    Thanked by 2host_c sillycat
  • SwiftnodeSwiftnode Member, Host Rep, LIR

    @host_c said:
    What seems here is that you just like to draw conclusions, but none asked for them. With the limited information you have on hand the outcome of your conclusion flawed.

    The conclusion that was drawn is you don't want hobbyists in BGP. And that conclusion was drawn from you explicitly saying:

    @host_c said:
    I do not want "hobbyists" in BGP, hence "hobbyists" do not need an ASN nor a sub-net.

    What other conclusion can be drawn from this statement? Are you intentionally being dense?

    @host_c said:
    BGP, Routed Sub-nets Globally, ASN, none of them are for hobby, nor for exploring, that is not their use case.

    Says who?

    @host_c said:
    I do not get why are you so on to this subject.

    I don't get why you have such a hard time answering simple questions about your statements.

    @host_c said:
    If you wish to do BGP and rely on upstream Filtering, one is just playing a game of luck not of knowledge and that is not even a hobbyist, as those do some reading for their hobby.
    Either you know what you are doing or not, it is that simple, otherwise one is just consuming bandwidth and cpu time on the one doing the filtering and ip transport.

    You, your upstream provider, and any tier1, should be doing egress and ingress filtering regardless of hobbyist ASNs existing in the global table.

    There is no if, and, or buts about it. Crying about wasted CPU cycles in 2024 because you're following filtering recommendations is silly.

    Also, your ASN is currently single homed, why don't you just have your upstream provider announce your ranges? Why should your ASN be permitted in the global table, but not others? One could easily see your ASN as hobbyist, and not want you participating.

  • AlbaHostAlbaHost Member, Host Rep
    edited May 24

    @kait said:

    @stefeman said:
    Which was the option that enforces heavy ass costs for those holding tons of large subnets (big ISPs, Ford, etc). (i.e the more you hoard, the more you pay).

    Best option but RIPE wants to treat everyone equal no matter how tiny or large you are.

    If that is the matter then, does that mean we could get IPv4 space just like some big boys do? If not, then we aren't equal though.
    There is a reason why all other RIRs don't have such a charging scheme but based on resource.

    Thanked by 2Swiftnode pedala
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