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Is doing this fair game?
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Is doing this fair game?

isograbisograb Member
edited October 2016 in General

So occasionally ill snoop around providers links to add "service" to cart say for example they post an offer like: https://portal.provider.com/?cmd=cart&action=add&id=22

ill change the id= to other numbers and find ripping deals (most of the time), now i dont be stupid if i find something good like 8gb + 8CPU +100GB SSD for $20 annually and order 40 of them i just get one, most of the time the provider will say "sorry this offer isnt available" when i put my order in, but as i see it its an offer to the world isnt it?

What are your thoughts???

Should "hidden" deals be honoured?
  1. Should "hidden" deals be honoured?81 votes
    1. Yes
      30.86%
    2. No
      69.14%
«1

Comments

  • MikeAMikeA Member, Patron Provider

    You shouldn't expect those to be setup anyways, they're hidden from the order form for a reason.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • BeardyUnixGuyBeardyUnixGuy Member
    edited October 2016

    If there's no link to that specific offering from another one of their webpages somewhere, then it's not a legitimate offering.

    The products you're finding are there either due to human error or still awaiting release/launch. Either way, without a link directly to it, the product is not actually an offer that has been released to the world.

    At this point, I think that a provider has every right to deny the offering since you are in fact gaming the system for personal benefit.

  • OliverOliver Member, Host Rep

    When I am at the supermarket, sometimes I go into the staff only stock room at the rear of the store and randomly select some products that haven't been put on the shelves yet. I usually find that at the checkout they don't accept this and tell me to return it. They generally suggest that I take products from the publicly accessible shelves in each aisle only.

  • @Oliver said:
    When I am at the supermarket, sometimes I go into the staff only stock room at the rear of the store and randomly select some products that haven't been put on the shelves yet. I usually find that at the checkout they don't accept this and tell me to return it. They generally suggest that I take products from the publicly accessible shelves in each aisle only.

    Not really a comparison, id say what i do is just like finding a product hidden on the top shelf behind other ones. after all its accessable to any john, dick or harry.

  • OliverOliver Member, Host Rep

    Sure it's a comparison.

    Items in a WHMCS 'shopping system' are either visible or not visible. Items in a supermarket are either visible (on a shelf) or not visible (in the storeroom or in a box not ready for the customer).

    If you think any providers are obligated to process or accept your orders for 'hidden' products I think you will be mistaken in the majority of cases. :-)

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited October 2016

    Wouldn't say fair game, no. The provider should have a laugh, congratulate you on your finding, and refund. Obviously with WHMCS it can be difficult to hide things effectively and ultimately a provider might get annoyed if people use that against them for entertainment too often, so I can see the odd case where the reaction might be less than friendly too.

    You might argue they have an obligation to protect anything they don't want ordered, but I would argue that they have no obligation to sell that which has not been advertised.

  • some providers might honor it

  • If you as a provider, hide the product, and you still leave it within a stock, then you should honor the order, it is fair to give the product the customer, if you do not want to sell the product, there is the stock 0 option, so it is not hard to do that.

  • JasperNLJasperNL Member
    edited October 2016

    Did this to Anthony. Got blocked because he thougt that I was a bot :p

  • This sounds familiar :)

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited October 2016

    @racksx said:
    If you as a provider, hide the product, and you still leave it within a stock, then you should honor the order, it is fair to give the product the customer, if you do not want to sell the product, there is the stock 0 option, so it is not hard to do that.

    Because there's no reason ever that a provider might need a stocked, hidden product that isn't for public purchase. Right?

    Wrong. I have one. It's for a single reseller and I need it to be available for them in a specific way. It would be stupid to say I'm obligated to give it to everyone or that I'm at fault for stocking it. It's not advertised, it's not for public purchase. You can find it, sure, but you have no "right" to the product that I took extra measures to make sure you could not reasonably land on the order page for when trying to purchase my product.

    Thanked by 1Lee
  • netomxnetomx Moderator, Veteran

    Order 40? Why?!

  • AmitzAmitz Member
    edited October 2016

    netomx said: Order 40? Why?!

    Making PROFIT!!11!!!!!1

    Thanked by 1louis_lau
  • ricardoricardo Member
    edited October 2016

    I'd say yes. I take the view that a lot of (less able) providers stick WHMCS on the front end and think that solves everything for them.

    If they have an offer on there that should not be available to you, then it should not be available to you. The issue is as much about WHMCS perhaps lacking functionality as it is the operator lacking the ability to better control things.

    If you want to publish something private, you put it behind authorisation and not blame Googlebot for finding it.

    If the provider decides not to honour it, I wouldn't hold a grudge, though.

  • MicrolinuxMicrolinux Member
    edited October 2016

    Facepalm. Just when you thought the bar couldn't be lowered any further.

    Thanked by 3jar Damian Pwner
  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    Yeah its a quick way to get your IP blocked, reported to maxmind and fraudrecord as a bot/scammer.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    ricardo said: then it should not be available to you

    It's not. If you have to take an understanding of their billing software and use it to creatively locate a hidden item, it is not available to you. You are seeking it out, knowing full well that it is not available to you.

    Thanked by 1Ole_Juul
  • ricardoricardo Member
    edited October 2016

    Well that would depend on what you call available.

    If I can load it up in a web page, click on it and order it... I'd call that available.

    If the latest sexy Iphone 25 was sold on WHMCS and someone dropped a link to a 50% discount on it that "wasn't in public view of the WHMCS installation", I doubt the average person would prefer a) Accepting the limitations of WHMCS over b) It was available.

    A lot of "offers" links on here go straight to the product ID, it'd seem using alternative logic that you'd have to actually double check that the site lists the offer somewhere, publically..... and in fact in many cases they don't.

    Thanked by 1imok
  • If your order gets refunded then the host has 0 obligation to provide any service, even if it's on the public order form.

    Thanked by 1impossiblystupid
  • I would say sorry but if it is hidden you have no right to it; it was hidden for a reason I have some hidden in my WHMCS as well but do I want you accessing it no! it was hidden for a reason....what makes you think I want you to access it? it could have been hidden for a special reason for one person only(eg not for you) so if you think it is fair to game the system? I don't.

  • LeeLee Veteran

    If you go to LEB and search through some old posts like CVPS offers from 2014 you will find offers still active at the same price. Not advertised on their site today but still valid in my view as the link still works.

    If it's not active does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

    If it's not advertised anywhere and you are just trying your luck then yeah but if the product is not active it should be returning a 404 not letting you see it.

    Thanked by 1HolyCactus
  • NickNick Member, Patron Provider

    Lee said: If you go to LEB and search through some old posts like CVPS offers from 2014 you will find offers still active at the same price. Not advertised on their site today but still valid in my view as the link still works.

    This is true.

  • If something is not advertised on the usual public channels, the company should not be in the obligation to provide the service. The service should be provided because of reputation.

    Also, the provider should take in consideration it's not a customer fault, not everyone knows how exactly the billing software works.

    This is something that happens usually with the OVH specials. The last promo was advertised only in Germany, but many people ordered in UK, US and other subsidiaries. US orders were refunded though (for me at least).

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @imok said:
    not everyone knows how exactly the billing software works.

    Read the original post again. This is about someone who does, intentionally hunting for hidden (unadvertised) items.

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    @Lee said:
    If you go to LEB and search through some old posts like CVPS offers from 2014 you will find offers still active at the same price. Not advertised on their site today but still valid in my view as the link still works.

    If it's not active does that make it wrong? I don't think so.

    If it's not advertised anywhere and you are just trying your luck then yeah but if the product is not active it should be returning a 404 not letting you see it.

    Yeah that's fair game, I would simply tell someone it was no longer available and offer a refund or similar product if that was the case.

    I have setup a few hidden products that I marked as free which were used during some longer term tests and module development, when someone orders those, I call shenanigans.

    Thanked by 1vimalware
  • mikhomikho Member, Host Rep

    If the product/service is hidden I would cancel and refund (including explanation why).
    If it's a promo code still active I would honour it. Hope other providers do that as well.

    Thanked by 1imok
  • joepie91joepie91 Member, Patron Provider
    edited October 2016

    I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it's the provider's responsibility to not allow orders that they don't intend to honour, on the other hand what the OP is describing sounds morally questionable at the very least.

    With still-active promo codes, if no explicit expiry date is indicated, it's quite simple in most jurisdictions - the provider legally has to honour them, whether they like it or not. In that case it's just provider's risk and responsibility to make sure that your communications are accurate.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited October 2016

    joepie91 said: I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it's the provider's responsibility to not allow orders that they don't intend to honor, on the other hand what the OP is describing sounds morally questionable at the very least.

    Yeah, I mean there's different ways to look at it. I look at it from my perspective where I have only one product hidden that I don't want people ordering. It's for a reseller, it doesn't say what it is (he knows, no one else needs to), and it has a particular automation flow that is not intended for anyone else. It doesn't break anything if someone orders it, nor expose any security issues, but it's not "nice" of anyone to do so because I know for a fact there's no reason it would be shared anywhere.

    That definitely isn't like a case where it's just an old promo someone forgot about and left stocked. That's an entirely different case, and one the provider should easily accept responsibility for.

    Thanked by 1Zen
  • I say yes, because it is a provider responsibility to secure their website and automation. If a website, product, or service, is vulnerable simply by searching links, then it is their fault for not securing the website and making sure everything is working as intended at release. This is exactly why, online hosting and security is not a job for kids, but something really serious for people who know what they are doing and what they are trying to offer, and how that offer will impact their customers and their business, both in long run and short run.

    A good administrator has multiple products. Most are public, but some of them are private, and held on private servers for testing purposes only, not on public websites. That way if they do a mistake on a test server or website, it will not impact their public offers.

    Thanked by 3ricardo joepie91 imok
  • I'd say it's fair game. It's there. Nothing illegal (under normal circumstances) about visiting a URL. I think it's a moot point though because they have the right to refuse your service.

    Thanked by 2ricardo Zen
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