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Seafile accuses Paypal of forcing them to snoop and censor all user data [resolved]
PayPal has demanded that we monitor data traffic as well as all our customers' files for illegal content. They have also asked us to provide them with detailed statistics about the files types of our customers sync and share on app.seafile.de
Seems like once again it's time to remind ourselves to migrate away from Paypal wherever possible, or boycott it altogether if you can.
To providers: add a cryptocurrency payment method today, with more freedom and much lower fees, e.g. see https://bitpay.com/ (used by Valve for Steam, also by Vultr among others) or https://www.coinbase.com/merchants
Else there's no telling who might be next: censor your customer files, or lose your Paypal account.
Thanked by 1jackwz
Comments
i wonder if they ask this from all?
What the bloody hell? Paypal isnt some 3 letter government organization. What authority do they have to demand anything of anyone? What right do they have to aggregate these data just because someone used them as a payment processor?
I'm more interested in who was strongarming paypal, frankly.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11944011
"Accept our terms and conditions or GTFO"
I'm not surprised, anyone care to place bets on which three/four letter government agency it was this time?
You have to wonder which other companies also got asked this, but complied and didn't tell their users...
Haha. I mean, they can ask all they want. I don't see any harm in them asking. I see harm in someone not laughing hysterically in response to their request.
As always though, one side of a story. I don't know the people behind seafile personally, I wouldn't just take their word for it. The details of their back story did nothing to back up the original suggestion even. If they wanted to tell us the full story, seems like they left out the best details.
Yep the NASA.
I always laughed at Seafile.de anyway. They make some privacy promises which are unsustainable in Germany, of all countries.
PayPal is rabish all the way but i'm afraid that there is no electronic bank in their size
They limited many of my accounts before for no reason and always try to know why but never get straight answer
The internet should be abolished so that these kind of issues can be avoided.
suppose that's the reason
I used most of those accounts for selling some stuff on eBay (legal stuff)
Edit: I misread your comment it was one each time they limited one and I had to open another didn't create them all at the same time for sure
Let's be honest; for way too many businesses, not offering PayPal is shooting yourself in the foot.
Providers should offer multiple payment methods beside Paypal. This will allow clients to avoid Paypal and use something else.
While paypal is certainly evil in this situation, i don't think they are the root of all evil.
They do what they are forced to do by their upstreams (VISA and Mastercard), by the bank regulators and maybe by copyright trolls with big pockets. I don't think they want to voluntarely decrease their own profits by cutting off merchants, from which they take good commission for every processed payment.
Most clients don't want to avoid PayPal.
Even if they wanted to comply, it is probably impossible s the files are encrypted end to end. So, what actually paypal wanted is to have a backdoor in the client to spy on customer's computers, rather.
That is hard to do in open sourced platforms without anyone noticing.
I haven't used seafile myself and don't know how it works, but are the file names encrypted too?
Perhaps they wanted statistics of file types per file extension, without looking at the actual content - i.e. 40% .mp3, 20% .txt, 10% .zip and so on. Sharing such a summarized statistic wouldn't violate anyone's privacy rights, though i still can see why seafile.de wouldn't want to do such a statistic.
File names are BS, even if you dont encrypt them. I have all my external backups in encrypted containers and seafile would encrypt those again.
The only thing this is interesting for, is seafile's stance and Paypal's methods.
The whole thing is getting ridiculous, for 20 years I wait for those guys to give up, it is simply not possible to control the internet and if they manage somehow, someone will build a freenet kind of thing over it or something even better. Yet it seems they do so well they can afford billions in bribes to US congress to make current internet unusable by removing the safe harbour provisions of DMCA. I.e, even if you do your best to do their work, you are still fucked.
Hopefully as more stories like this one gain publicity, they will want to.
Yes, this marks a new low, paypal acting as a spooks agency? I admit i didnt expect that, even after they shut down VPN providers, many of those are rife with abuse and chargebacks, so it made some sense, but this is just from a horror movie.
Its true PayPal is convenient .. until its not. They have a binary resolution flowchart - do exactly as we say or you can't do anything to your account, including deleting it (apparently to protect your data). They have regulations to follow and internal risk compliance to upheld. But, there are many ways to deal with them. Their methods are inflexible and pretty much has the feel of being self serving. Even banks seem more helpful in this regard. Want to talk to someone else or a supervisor? Their response is pretty arrogant and unhelpful - you can send mail to their legal department.
PayPal Corporate Attention Legal / Civil 2211 N First St San Jose, CA 95131Anyways, this conflict, really messed up my payment flow. In the end, this interruption caused me to pay more for services I've had for years and so I stopped using PayPal altogether and my business will never accept them.
I know it's common to believe any negative story about people you dislike, but I still don't believe this one, and that is not an intellectually sound practice.
There has been not one shred of evidence provided to suggest that PayPal asked them to go through user's files. I've never ever heard of PayPal making any request like that. Ever.
A few of you guys are eating it up though. That's a bit concerning, how little facts actually seem to matter to you when drawing an opinion as long as it aligns with your negative view of someone.
Example:
You're hoping for more of these stories to come out? We don't even have this one yet. I can't think of a good reason to hope that the most popular payment gateway for Internet services is corrupt and demanding user data from their client's clients. Unless you have a horse in the race, I suppose?
I challenge people to put their prejudice and preconceived opinions aside. Demand facts for the accusation made. Don't be so corrupt intellectually that you no longer require evidence to draw a conclusion. Your loyalties should not be so inexpensive to purchase.
The story is gaining enough traction that PayPal may be encouraged to make a statement: http://fortune.com/2016/06/21/paypal-cloud-seafile/
I'll join in:
It's not without precedent:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/03/02/paypal_dumps_mega/ : Paypal blocked Mega because of end-to-end encryption.
No evidence provided there that PayPal requested private user information. Demand evidence. It may well be true, but we should have high demands for our loyalties if we value our integrity.
The problem with this type of logic, though, is that there's always a first time for everything. The reason conspiracy theories are rampant is that sometimes they are true, and intermittent reinforcement rules guide the rest. So in the absence of evidence, it's best to neither condemn nor defend PayPal.
If it's untrue, they should be encouraged to make a libel lawsuit.
KenM you are not!
^ This!
PayPal has a lot of things to consider in certain scenarios and I'm pretty sure cutting people off isn't their hobby (though for some it may seem like it). I'm not saying they're all good and are always right, but it often isn't as simple as it is being portrayed.