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Smaphaus is a perfect example what happens when critical sectors that has to be running by public authorities, are run by "non profit organization" that we all know a lot of cases, those types of organizations was controlled by people that the only god they have is money.
Spamhaus controls a big percent of the mail traffic around the globe. But, then, who controls Spamhaus? In witch law do they listen? If, for example, a government say to spamhaus "please, delist this range of ips because in our opinion it is false stated as spam", they can answer "we have our way to put ips in our list, you have any wright to say to us what to do, if you don't like our perspective, then, it's simple: just don't use us"!
They do not sell anything (like Google that has to respect anti-trust laws), they are just consulting to isp's and mail providers, so, anyone can touch them, if there are no proofs for blackmailing involving money...
But, that, gives those people extremely big (and economical) power. If, in this case (just a scenario) a medium sized database owner that is competitive to CC want to make harm to his competitor, he could easily approach people that are having key-positions in spamhaus and blacklist 10ths of thousand of ips. Who can control that or proov something like this? (The scenario is fictional, but we have seen such attitudes to other sectors of business).
TL;DR
Those activities that controls the market, should be run by the authorities (UN, cooperation of countries like EU-US-CH etc.), not individuals, even if they claim that they are non-profit organizations.
Yeah, we should totally give the authorities control over e-mail blacklists... are you nuts? Spamhaus may not be perfect but I'd prefer that than a police or a UN approved list of mailers...
@AThomasHowe If they want a list of mailers, or if the governments want to block others or involve the police to that, they can do it perfectly with the current laws (and they do, in a lot of cases. Just see what happened to Lavabit, read his last letter in his site, he cannot even use the Justice! lavabit.com/ ).
What I'm saying is that it has to be a public committee with full transparency that has to follow specific rules and can be in public control.
NO! We need to give government LESS power to do shit, not more.
To be honest, spamlists are something that should be operated on a for-profit basis. I mean... I disagree with paying for delisting. But pay to access listings is perfectly fine.
Kinda like spamhaus says it is? I don't believe in giving controls like that to omnipotent governmental organisations - and they are still staffed by people anyway and so still susceptible to the same problems as something run by your average Joe Public. I think it's easier just to treat things on a case by case basis, something that's capitalist (or socialist, or communist, or non political) isn't gained by association. It's all down to the upper echelons of the organisation and how they act.
It'd be very possible to run a SpamHaus-like operation with ethics. It might not be as profitable or make you feel as important but those things don't make it impossible or less attainable, just less likely.
How do you know how many vps containers your 'clients' have?
fping -g 192.210.128.0/17
Agreed.
How are you going to accomplish that?
He's going to send a very sternly worded letter. If that doesn't work I hear they're mulling over the old 'flaming bags of dog poo on the doorstep' a la The Simpsons.
@AThomasHowe I can agree with you in many of your arguments. It is true that public section is corrupted a lot and governors (today it is the same as governments, but it shouldn't be...) are controlling on or off the table all things for their own good/profit...
You maybe are right when you don't want another something-like-NSA control as spam policy, but practices like spamhaus is not the solution, either... In the end, there is the question of quis custodet ipsos custodes (who will keep the keepers).
Tough question...
With what?
You know what else we could do with those...
plz don't really ddos spamhaus people
With what I've seen CC overages prices set to, I very much doubt that they could afford to do such a thing.
Woosh?
Make it more interesting and throw whole racks filled with em'.
I'm neutral on this.
Those eager to kick CC with any justification will enjoy the party while those who have dealt with Spamhaus in any capacity, including when they get into the unreasonable / "preacher mode" side, understand what Jon is trying to explain.
Have Somali pirates sink the Spamhaus yacht that Steve Linford lives on with a rocket propelled grenade attack
I am surprised drmike has not posted it at vpsboard yet
The discussion's split over three threads - "GreenValueHost becoming ColoCrossing," "Dear Spamhaus, why can't you group providers right?" and "Colocrossing Achieves Top 5 Rank."
Orville Redenbacher would do well to sponsor the entire LowEndSegment.
Not even then would listing a /17 be a good action, IMHO. We're not closing highways to prevent accidents from happening either. They're using a very big sledgehammer to "prevent" something they don't know how to prevent. Spamhaus needs to adapt to the world of virtualization and cheaper servers. Like you said, it's not 2001 anymore.
How do other anti-spam organizations and blacklists handle these issues? Because I'm mostly hearing things about Spamhouse.
According to the SPAM reports I get from SpamAssasin, it's not enough to get an e-mail over the 5.0 points threshold. So to me personally, on my mailserver, the impact is extremely limited. The only e-mails that end up there are LowEndBox helpdesk e-mails because of the wording in them :P
I personally don't like CC and this comes from taking over LE*, but I see them making progress in most places.
Working with spamhaus is painful at best and impossible at worst. This reminds me the early 2000 Republican "policy". Tax cuts as answer to everything, it got us in the mess of today, the spamhaus bubble of "always escalate and if that doesnt bring them to their knees begging, threaten" will burst too. Nobody will regret it, though.
I don't like uceprotect's stance on automatic escalation, but it is much fairer since it does not involve manual escalation according to personal agenda. Their list of spammer heavens lok much more credible too.
http://www.uceprotect.net/en/rblcheck.php
Their reasoning for that /17 escalation appears unclear to us, they literally just pasted in a bunch of single ip vps users from numerous ranges and said to themselves, hey, let's just lost the entire /17.
It's true that spamhaus doesn't control the flow of email, but when an ip is listed it becomes more difficult to send email to AOL users and some other legacy networks that rely on the spamhaus list, again, think circa 2001 mindset.
Look again at the number of open listings, and the number of times they've had you listed this year.
Is it really that unclear? Just Spamhaus following their well documented procedures they've had in place for many many years.
a lot. Large part of the Internet trust Spamhaus and use those lists to protect their servers.