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[Latest DRAMA] WP Engine is banned from using WordPress.org as from September 25th - Page 2
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[Latest DRAMA] WP Engine is banned from using WordPress.org as from September 25th

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Comments

  • 428428 Member

    Wow 2 days ago Winamp making drama for their free labor license, and now this WordPress

    What a Year

    Thanked by 1JasonM
  • @emgh said:

    @jar said:
    Did anyone actually announce a lawsuit? A C&D is the furthest thing from a lawsuit.

    My bad, that might be the case. Haven't really googled.

    If you intend to ignore the cease and desist I'm not sure it's the furthest thing from a lawsuit however.

    Well if it's a cease and desist, they could say "You have X amount of time to rectify the situation." That would put WPEngine on notice, WPEngine would be able to give their customers a heads up on what the future plans of their company are and the users could make a calculated decision on their next move.

    If you were truly looking out for you users, that'd be the route you take.

    Thanked by 3emgh jar khalequzzaman
  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @Petey_Long said:

    @emgh said:

    @jar said:
    Did anyone actually announce a lawsuit? A C&D is the furthest thing from a lawsuit.

    My bad, that might be the case. Haven't really googled.

    If you intend to ignore the cease and desist I'm not sure it's the furthest thing from a lawsuit however.

    Well if it's a cease and desist, they could say "You have X amount of time to rectify the situation." That would put WPEngine on notice, WPEngine would be able to give their customers a heads up on what the future plans of their company are and the users could make a calculated decision on their next move.

    If you were truly looking out for you users, that'd be the route you take.

    Yes, 100 % feels like its emotional for Matt. Although I guess that's reasonable given what he feels is at stake.

  • Petey_LongPetey_Long Member
    edited September 26

    @xaoc said:

    @Petey_Long said:

    @emgh said:

    @Petey_Long said: I can understand where the frustration comes from but at the same time, what did the users of WPEngine do? If people are using your platform in one way or another, that's a big win. When you rip the rug out from under them for something they have zero control over, that's pretty messed up.

    Why should WPEngine's clients be punished for something that's completely out of their control? Wordpress should have at least gave a couple weeks notice so people could make other accommodations but why NOW? Why the urgency?

    It's fairly common when you're getting sued that you cut all contact until its over.

    I'd say blocking server access during the lawsuit is completely fair game honestly.

    He said his actions were "For the best interests of the users." I don't disagree with your premise, but his statement is specious. Anyone that believes his actions were "in the best interest" of Wordpress users are completely disconnected from reality. You know what's better than lying? Not saying anything at all.

    Since WP Engine "isn't WordPress" then no WordPress users were affected by this. 🤭

    I think that Matt guy might actually believe this in some twisted bizarro world-esque mentality.

    Solid comment :)

    @emgh said: Yes, 100 % feels like its emotional for Matt. Although I guess that's reasonable given what he feels is at stake.

    Matt Mullenweg livestream

    Thanked by 1xaoc
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited September 26

    @emgh said:

    @Petey_Long said:

    @emgh said:

    @jar said:
    Did anyone actually announce a lawsuit? A C&D is the furthest thing from a lawsuit.

    My bad, that might be the case. Haven't really googled.

    If you intend to ignore the cease and desist I'm not sure it's the furthest thing from a lawsuit however.

    Well if it's a cease and desist, they could say "You have X amount of time to rectify the situation." That would put WPEngine on notice, WPEngine would be able to give their customers a heads up on what the future plans of their company are and the users could make a calculated decision on their next move.

    If you were truly looking out for you users, that'd be the route you take.

    Yes, 100 % feels like its emotional for Matt. Although I guess that's reasonable given what he feels is at stake.

    What's really at stake is his job. He hit a brick wall with revenue and doesn't know how to increase it. No amount of WordPress users using it within the allowed scope by its license takes away from WordPress or it's community and he knows that.

    They don't contribute enough? Not in the license.

    They disable features? The entire software was built to allow that, and it's allowed within the license.

    He just wants a cut or to be the only managed WP host because he can't think of another way to please his investors.

  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @jar said: No amount of WordPress users using it within the allowed scope by its license takes away from WordPress

    I mean, running that infra definitely costs quite a bit, I'd guess it does anyway

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @emgh said:

    @jar said: No amount of WordPress users using it within the allowed scope by its license takes away from WordPress

    I mean, running that infra definitely costs quite a bit, I'd guess it does anyway

    That doesn't change if everyone on WP Engine were spread out across VPS providers. But that marketplace also generates revenue for developers so he has options.

  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    Did you guys see what he said about WPEngine removing Automattic's Stripe attribution from WooCommerce and replacing it with their own? :D

  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @jar said: That doesn't change if everyone on WP Engine were spread out across VPS providers

    It dosen't, but VPS providers don't sell managed WP

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @emgh said:

    @jar said: That doesn't change if everyone on WP Engine were spread out across VPS providers

    It dosen't, but VPS providers don't sell managed WP

    What does their selling managed WP do to increase overhead for Matt's company or to decrease community contributions?

  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador
    edited September 26

    @jar said:

    @emgh said:

    @jar said: That doesn't change if everyone on WP Engine were spread out across VPS providers

    It dosen't, but VPS providers don't sell managed WP

    What does their selling managed WP do to increase overhead for Matt's company or to decrease community contributions?

    Them existing does that. Them selling managed WP hosting makes it "right" for them to contribute. He can't go after them for not contributing, legally, of course, so he'll go after them for using the WordPress trademark, like labeling their smallest plan "WordPress Core", "WP Core" or something along those lines.

  • Petey_LongPetey_Long Member
    edited September 26

    @jar said:

    @emgh said:

    @Petey_Long said:

    @emgh said:

    @jar said:
    Did anyone actually announce a lawsuit? A C&D is the furthest thing from a lawsuit.

    My bad, that might be the case. Haven't really googled.

    If you intend to ignore the cease and desist I'm not sure it's the furthest thing from a lawsuit however.

    Well if it's a cease and desist, they could say "You have X amount of time to rectify the situation." That would put WPEngine on notice, WPEngine would be able to give their customers a heads up on what the future plans of their company are and the users could make a calculated decision on their next move.

    If you were truly looking out for you users, that'd be the route you take.

    Yes, 100 % feels like its emotional for Matt. Although I guess that's reasonable given what he feels is at stake.

    What's really at stake is his job. He hit a brick wall with revenue and doesn't know how to increase it. No amount of WordPress users using it within the allowed scope by its license takes away from WordPress or it's community and he knows that.

    They don't contribute enough? Not in the license.

    They disable features? The entire software was built to allow that, and it's allowed within the license.

    He's got a solid case of open-source remorse. Wordpress is good, but without a huge community of well-supported 3rd party plugin, it sucks. I'd use a different CMS altogether before I'd use a stock Wordpress instance.

    The community is what MAKES Wordpress. If all of those people decided to up and leave and go to Ghost or something - Wordpress would be dead as a door nail. I'd love to be able to use something more lightweight that tackles all of the things I need it to do.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited September 26

    @emgh said:

    @jar said:

    @emgh said:

    @jar said: That doesn't change if everyone on WP Engine were spread out across VPS providers

    It dosen't, but VPS providers don't sell managed WP

    What does their selling managed WP do to increase overhead for Matt's company or to decrease community contributions?

    Them existing does that. Them selling managed WP hosting makes it "right" for them to contribute. He can't go after them for not contributing, legally, of course, so he'll go after them for using the WordPress trademark, like labeling their smallest plan "WordPress Core", "WP Core" or something along those lines.

    No it doesn't. Not unless you assume that WP Engine customers wouldn't be using WordPress without WP Engine. I don't think that's a fair assumption, everyone I know who went there did so because they use WordPress already. Which would mean that the drain is identical to if WP Engine didn't exist. There is also no requirement in the license for them to contribute a certain amount of code to the project. Feeling that it's "right" is about vibes. Everything is fair when we're talking about what we wish were true and how we feel emotionally about people and situations. But that's where this ends. It's emotional and t's opinions. The facts are that WP Engine has been within their rights, and the people who freely gave them those rights are now mad because other people are making money that they feel they deserve

    Shouldn't give out free software if you're going to get mad when someone is commercially successful using it

  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @jar said: The facts are that WP Engine has been within their rights,

    How do you know that? Matt seems fairly certain that there's trademark infringements. I guess we'll see with time, I wouldn't make any certain claims about that in the meantime.

    By the way:

    @emgh said: Did you guys see what he said about WPEngine removing Automattic's Stripe attribution from WooCommerce and replacing it with their own?

    Did anyone research this? Sounds insane.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited September 26

    @emgh said: How do you know that?

    It's publicly available information. They just changed their terms to walk them into trademark infringement, and no one is going to agree that they shouldn't have a little time to adjust to new terms or consult their lawyers about them.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/comments/1foknoq/the_wordpress_foundation_trademark_policy_was/

    Thanked by 2emgh khalequzzaman
  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @jar said:

    @emgh said: How do you know that?

    It's publicly available information. They just changed their terms to walk them into trademark infringement, and no one is going to agree that they shouldn't have a little time to adjust to new terms or consult their lawyers about them.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/comments/1foknoq/the_wordpress_foundation_trademark_policy_was/

    So other hosts like BlueHost and HostGator (I believed he mentioned) just paid the commercial trademark fee for fun?

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited September 26

    @emgh said: So other hosts like BlueHost and HostGator (I believed he mentioned) just paid the commercial trademark fee for fun?

    I don't know anything about that, but if they did then that would likely be my take. Why pay for something you don't have to, if the owners are giving it away and giving you the rights?

  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @jar said:

    @emgh said: So other hosts like BlueHost and HostGator (I believed he mentioned) just paid the commercial trademark fee for fun?

    I don't know anything about that, but if they did then that would likely be my take. Why pay for something you don't have to, if the owners are giving it away and giving you the rights?

    My guess would be that their lawyers deemed that they had to.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    Anyway, good debate @emgh :heart:

    Thanked by 1emgh
  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @jar said:
    Anyway, good debate @emgh :heart:

    As always <3

    Thanked by 1jar
  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @sh97 my i m hav trading marks

    Thanked by 1sh97
  • sh97sh97 Member, Host Rep

    @emgh said:
    @sh97 my i m hav trading marks

    it s correct

    Thanked by 1emgh
  • @jar said: Shouldn't give out free software if you're going to get mad when someone is commercially successful using it

    And that's exactly it.

    You're not paying for the product, but for the hosting/management/extras. Just because someone happened amass a large clientele using something you give away for free doesn't mean you throw a temper tantrum, grab all your toys and leave the sandbox.

    Think of how many tech-illiterate, mom and pops-type people that are completely dead in the water with no clue on what to do next, That's not even taking into consideration that they even KNOW that they're dead in the water. WPEngine's latest blog post was 3 days ago and it's talking about the block editor.

    Things are already tight for folks financially but think if your sole source of income was hosted on WPEngine and POOF, the people you look to for support/answers isn't available.

    "Yes, my actions were for the best of the users of Wordpress"

    Thanked by 2jar fluffernutter
  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @Petey_Long said: Think of how many tech-illiterate, mom and pops-type people that are completely dead in the water with no clue on what to do next, That's not even taking into consideration that they even KNOW that they're dead in the water. WPEngine's latest blog post was 3 days ago and it's talking about the block editor.

    Things are already tight for folks financially but think if your sole source of income was hosted on WPEngine and POOF, the people you look to for support/answers isn't available.

    I mean I agree but it's been what? A day without updates? They're a billion dollar company, they'll find a solution.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    echo chamber is meeting real world - and it'll hurt.

    Bye, bye Matt

  • Petey_LongPetey_Long Member
    edited September 26

    @emgh said:

    @Petey_Long said: Think of how many tech-illiterate, mom and pops-type people that are completely dead in the water with no clue on what to do next, That's not even taking into consideration that they even KNOW that they're dead in the water. WPEngine's latest blog post was 3 days ago and it's talking about the block editor.

    Things are already tight for folks financially but think if your sole source of income was hosted on WPEngine and POOF, the people you look to for support/answers isn't available.

    I mean I agree but it's been what? A day without updates? They're a billion dollar company, they'll find a solution.

    You'd think they'd at least acknowledge the fact that an issue has been brought to light that is going to significantly affect their business. Don't need a full game plan, but just to say "Yes, we're aware, these are the facts and we will post a blog update with our planned course of action." would be better than radio silence, ESPECIALLY since they're a billion dollar company.

    Transparency goes a long way with people. Ma and Pa Kettle aren't sitting online all day reading industry drama - they're busy baking cookies and making christmas ornaments to sell on their website. If people knew there may be a potential issue that could negatively affect them , by disclosing that to them, you're empowering your users to make a risk-based decision on what their individual situation is.

    The only person who could tell me what's best for me, is me.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @Petey_Long said:

    @emgh said:

    @Petey_Long said: Think of how many tech-illiterate, mom and pops-type people that are completely dead in the water with no clue on what to do next, That's not even taking into consideration that they even KNOW that they're dead in the water. WPEngine's latest blog post was 3 days ago and it's talking about the block editor.

    Things are already tight for folks financially but think if your sole source of income was hosted on WPEngine and POOF, the people you look to for support/answers isn't available.

    I mean I agree but it's been what? A day without updates? They're a billion dollar company, they'll find a solution.

    You'd think they'd at least acknowledge the fact that an issue has been brought to light that is going to significantly affect their business. Don't need a full game plan, but just to say "Yes, we're aware, these are the facts and we will post a blog update with our planned course of action." would be better than radio silence, ESPECIALLY since they're a billion dollar company.

    Transparency goes a long way with people. Ma and Pa Kettle aren't sitting online all day reading industry drama - they're busy baking cookies and making christmas ornaments to sell on their website. If people knew there may be a potential issue that could negatively affect them , by disclosing that to them, you're empowering your users to make a risk-based decision on what their individual situation is.

    The only person who could tell me what's best for me, is me.

    It's on their status page

    Thanked by 2emgh Petey_Long
  • @emgh said:

    @jar said:

    @emgh said: So other hosts like BlueHost and HostGator (I believed he mentioned) just paid the commercial trademark fee for fun?

    I don't know anything about that, but if they did then that would likely be my take. Why pay for something you don't have to, if the owners are giving it away and giving you the rights?

    My guess would be that their lawyers deemed that they had to.

    I think that BlueHost makes a ton of money by bribing WP.org - they are the N01 provider on their recommended providers list, and have been for a loooong time.

    This is also interesting:
    https://newfold.com/newsroom/website-professionals-can-now-take-advantage-of-the-new-bluehost

    AFAIK the Newfold (BH's owner) is the only entity licenced to use the WP trademarks (along with Matt's wp.com and .org, of course).

    WordPress brings a lot of money, and investors want tighter control over it (to milk it more).

    Imagine if Linux started blackmailing every hosting provider that makes a lot of money to pay a cut. That's what it looks like - the hosting quality (compared to BH, really?!?) and trademark "misuse" are just red herrings. It's about the money.

  • @jar said:

    @Petey_Long said:

    @emgh said:

    @Petey_Long said: Think of how many tech-illiterate, mom and pops-type people that are completely dead in the water with no clue on what to do next, That's not even taking into consideration that they even KNOW that they're dead in the water. WPEngine's latest blog post was 3 days ago and it's talking about the block editor.

    Things are already tight for folks financially but think if your sole source of income was hosted on WPEngine and POOF, the people you look to for support/answers isn't available.

    I mean I agree but it's been what? A day without updates? They're a billion dollar company, they'll find a solution.

    You'd think they'd at least acknowledge the fact that an issue has been brought to light that is going to significantly affect their business. Don't need a full game plan, but just to say "Yes, we're aware, these are the facts and we will post a blog update with our planned course of action." would be better than radio silence, ESPECIALLY since they're a billion dollar company.

    Transparency goes a long way with people. Ma and Pa Kettle aren't sitting online all day reading industry drama - they're busy baking cookies and making christmas ornaments to sell on their website. If people knew there may be a potential issue that could negatively affect them , by disclosing that to them, you're empowering your users to make a risk-based decision on what their individual situation is.

    The only person who could tell me what's best for me, is me.

    It's on their status page

    Then I stand corrected!

    Searching that out (regular internet search) and found it immediately.

    I looked everywhere on their main website and couldn't even find a reference to a status page.

  • emghemgh Member, BF Ambassador

    @Petey_Long said: Ma and Pa Kettle aren't sitting online all day reading industry drama

    Having seen a lot of these websites, they usually don't update their plugins for years anyway :D

    Thanked by 1asadz
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