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MXRoute Health

socialzzzsocialzzz Member
edited July 2023 in Help

Look at production environment providers

@jar interested to know should something happen to you, you fall sick what is the likeliness of MXRoute continuing... do you have others that would take it on, business partner or partners?

What would you use for production
  1. What would you use for production>121 votes
    1. I would use MXroute for Production
      65.29%
    2. No, Go with Microsoft, Google
      34.71%
«1

Comments

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    If I die tomorrow, Ryan is to drive down from Dallas and unlock my password manager for Christine, who is to contact a list of people she's been given. The plan will evolve as needed, variations of events reasonably accounted for.

  • mike1smike1s Member

    @jar said:
    If I die tomorrow, Ryan is to drive down from Dallas and unlock my password manager for Christine, who is to contact a list of people she's been given. The plan will evolve as needed.

    I thought that the AI would do everything for you

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @mike1s said:

    @jar said:
    If I die tomorrow, Ryan is to drive down from Dallas and unlock my password manager for Christine, who is to contact a list of people she's been given. The plan will evolve as needed.

    I thought that the AI would do everything for you

    First I have to get it ready to annoy Christine endlessly.

    Thanked by 2bdl Sululu
  • MannDudeMannDude Patron Provider, Veteran

    @jar said:
    If I die tomorrow, Ryan is to drive down from Dallas and unlock my password manager for Christine, who is to contact a list of people she's been given. The plan will evolve as needed, variations of events reasonably accounted for.

    And we'd all pour at a bit of Redbull to pay our respects.

  • Good to know :P

  • @jar said: If I die tomorrow

    I'm coming with you.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • crunchbitscrunchbits Member, Patron Provider, Top Host

    @MannDude said:
    And we'd all pour at a bit of Redbull Mangilla to pay our respects.

    @socialzzz I definitely would run production with MXRoute.

    Thanked by 2socialzzz jar
  • WebProjectWebProject Host Rep, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @jar said:
    If I die tomorrow, Ryan is to drive down from Dallas and unlock my password manager for Christine, who is to contact a list of people she's been given. The plan will evolve as needed, variations of events reasonably accounted for.

    Such plan is like RAID-1, if something happens to Ryan on way from Dallas, is there any alternative recovery solution? 😂

    @crunchbits said:

    @MannDude said:
    And we'd all pour at a bit of Redbull Mangilla to pay our respects.

    @socialzzz I definitely would run production with MXRoute.

    The same here, the service is production ready!

  • @WebProject said: Such plan is like RAID-1, if something happens to Ryan on way from Dallas, is there any alternative recovery solution? 😂

    Probably need offsite backup, otto from germany will come visit.

  • LeviLevi Member
    edited July 2023

    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Thanked by 1socialzzz
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

  • @WebProject said: Such plan is like RAID-1

    Yeah, we need at least something like RAID-6 or RAID-10 :D

    Thanked by 1WebProject
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @febryanvaldo said:

    @WebProject said: Such plan is like RAID-1

    Yeah, we need at least something like RAID-6 or RAID-10 :D

    That's okay. As I said, other variations within reason are accounted for. As we grow, so too does that plan. It's definitely no longer true that only one person is able to run MXroute.

    I still prefer to be one person running all of the technical side right now, and someone taking my place would have their own way of doing things rather than simply acting as a stand-in for me, but then that's the way it is everywhere. It's rare that any company is run by one person or one set of people forever. To outlive me, it must one day be run by someone else. As it should be, as it will be ♥️

    Thanked by 1sebkehl
  • SirFoxySirFoxy Member
    edited July 2023

    😂 who goes up to a small business owner like: ‘Will you die soon? I’m concerned.’

  • FatGrizzlyFatGrizzly Member, Host Rep

    I think I must cover up the health of freevps.org too.

    If the team entirely dies, the vps's will run as long as comcast 1mbit lines are UP in heaven. In the worst case scenario, @crunchbits Eric will take over and implement 'Get off My Lawn' policy.

    The details of policy will be revealed later.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @SirFoxy said:
    😂 who goes up to a small business owner like: “Will you die soon? I’m concerned.”

    Right? 🤣

    Like Google never shut down a service, like a company was never acquired and shut down.

    The real person everyone should ask what happens if their provider goes away is the end user. What is THEIR backup plan? Because there's no size or budget that even remotely implies a company will exist tomorrow. Blockbuster thought they would live forever. Bear Stearns probably thought they would too. MXroute might be dead tomorrow, so might America. So might the western hemisphere. But if I have anything to say about it, it'll long outlive me.

    Thanked by 2SirFoxy jc4848
  • @jar said:

    @SirFoxy said:
    😂 who goes up to a small business owner like: “Will you die soon? I’m concerned.”

    Right? 🤣

    Like Google never shut down a service, like a company was never acquired and shut down.

    The real person everyone should ask what happens if their provider goes away is the end user. What is THEIR backup plan? Because there's no size or budget that even remotely implies a company will exist tomorrow. Blockbuster thought they would live forever. Bear Stearns probably thought they would too. MXroute might be dead tomorrow, so might America. So might the western hemisphere.

    SubprimeMortgageRoute when?

    Thanked by 1jar
  • LeviLevi Member

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

  • M66BM66B Veteran

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

  • LeviLevi Member

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    May Jar offer cheap, reliable mail for evaaaaaaa

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @LTniger said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

    There's a lot about email you don't know. Like that when a transactional customer sends an email over API to someone on their suppression list, did you know their APIs report success? Or that this is one of the most common reasons for people missing emails that aren't logged, and that suddenly appear when sent to another address? At all email providers? You wouldn't know that if you didn't deal with it.

    @LTniger said:

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

    Silence is bad, but it's not the whole story. Silence exists everywhere, and the most noteworthy source of silence in email is from a company you yourself actually recommended.

    Again, if you have any specific questions about any specific situation, I'm happy to answer them. I might recommend asking me things like "Why would a sender think they'd successfully sent me an email when I don't have it and you have no logs of it?" Because there's a great reason, and by asking questions like that you might learn new things that help you troubleshoot in the future.

  • M66BM66B Veteran

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

    Car rental companies cannot be incompetent or fail, or refuse to deliver an email to someone who isn't Gmail. Is that your official, intelligent position? Because if it is, then we're obviously done here. That's your logic and it isn't sound, so there's no point in further conversation. If it wasn't in the logs, they didn't try to deliver it. You were probably in their transactional account's bounce suppression list and almost no company big or small even knows how to check that.

    A company I was with had to drop Fastmail because if they filter email to spam folder automatically, they send the email to feedback loops, which causes instant listing on transactional provider suppression lists (which are per sender account at those transactional providers). It lead to missing abuse complaints from Cloudflare. There's a lot about email you don't know.

    @LTniger said:

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

    Silence is bad, but it's not the whole story. Silence exists everywhere, and the most noteworthy source of silence in email is from a company you yourself actually recommended, so let's not pretend like that's what your problem really is.

    You could just admit that maybe there are more complexities to email than you understand, but I suspect that would invalidate your intentions.

    Just a question: do you send a bounce when DKIM / SPF is invalid? IMHO you should, recognizing that things are pretty complicated.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

    Car rental companies cannot be incompetent or fail, or refuse to deliver an email to someone who isn't Gmail. Is that your official, intelligent position? Because if it is, then we're obviously done here. That's your logic and it isn't sound, so there's no point in further conversation. If it wasn't in the logs, they didn't try to deliver it. You were probably in their transactional account's bounce suppression list and almost no company big or small even knows how to check that.

    A company I was with had to drop Fastmail because if they filter email to spam folder automatically, they send the email to feedback loops, which causes instant listing on transactional provider suppression lists (which are per sender account at those transactional providers). It lead to missing abuse complaints from Cloudflare. There's a lot about email you don't know.

    @LTniger said:

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

    Silence is bad, but it's not the whole story. Silence exists everywhere, and the most noteworthy source of silence in email is from a company you yourself actually recommended, so let's not pretend like that's what your problem really is.

    You could just admit that maybe there are more complexities to email than you understand, but I suspect that would invalidate your intentions.

    Just a question: do you send a bounce when DKIM / SPF is invalid? IMHO you should, recognizing that things are pretty complicated.

    I either accept it or reject it. If I reject it it's not my job to send a bounce. The bounce is sent by the sending server.

    Transactional providers tend to not bounce rejections on their suppression lists though. They even report success via their API when sending to addresses on them, which is why everyone on them always blames their email provider. I frequently had to tell people on my old support team, in another lifetime, not to blame recipient providers by default because they always saw API success as meaning it wasn't our problem.

  • M66BM66B Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @jar said:

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

    Car rental companies cannot be incompetent or fail, or refuse to deliver an email to someone who isn't Gmail. Is that your official, intelligent position? Because if it is, then we're obviously done here. That's your logic and it isn't sound, so there's no point in further conversation. If it wasn't in the logs, they didn't try to deliver it. You were probably in their transactional account's bounce suppression list and almost no company big or small even knows how to check that.

    A company I was with had to drop Fastmail because if they filter email to spam folder automatically, they send the email to feedback loops, which causes instant listing on transactional provider suppression lists (which are per sender account at those transactional providers). It lead to missing abuse complaints from Cloudflare. There's a lot about email you don't know.

    @LTniger said:

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

    Silence is bad, but it's not the whole story. Silence exists everywhere, and the most noteworthy source of silence in email is from a company you yourself actually recommended, so let's not pretend like that's what your problem really is.

    You could just admit that maybe there are more complexities to email than you understand, but I suspect that would invalidate your intentions.

    Just a question: do you send a bounce when DKIM / SPF is invalid? IMHO you should, recognizing that things are pretty complicated.

    I either accept it or reject it. If I reject it it's not my job to send a bounce. The bounce is sent by the sending server.

    That's not how it works with Gmail, where it is "message not accepted because of security issues", with an explainer.

    Edit: I can image people not getting an invoice if you don't actively inform the sender.

  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran
    edited July 2023

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

    Car rental companies cannot be incompetent or fail, or refuse to deliver an email to someone who isn't Gmail. Is that your official, intelligent position? Because if it is, then we're obviously done here. That's your logic and it isn't sound, so there's no point in further conversation. If it wasn't in the logs, they didn't try to deliver it. You were probably in their transactional account's bounce suppression list and almost no company big or small even knows how to check that.

    A company I was with had to drop Fastmail because if they filter email to spam folder automatically, they send the email to feedback loops, which causes instant listing on transactional provider suppression lists (which are per sender account at those transactional providers). It lead to missing abuse complaints from Cloudflare. There's a lot about email you don't know.

    @LTniger said:

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

    Silence is bad, but it's not the whole story. Silence exists everywhere, and the most noteworthy source of silence in email is from a company you yourself actually recommended, so let's not pretend like that's what your problem really is.

    You could just admit that maybe there are more complexities to email than you understand, but I suspect that would invalidate your intentions.

    Just a question: do you send a bounce when DKIM / SPF is invalid? IMHO you should, recognizing that things are pretty complicated.

    I either accept it or reject it. If I reject it it's not my job to send a bounce. The bounce is sent by the sending server.

    That's not how it works with Gmail, where it is "message not accepted because of security issues"

    Actually, Gmail doesn't reject 100% of DKIM/SPF failures either. They randomly pick senders to reject based on it. That's word directly from them, though not somewhere I can link you to.

    But no even in those cases Google only sends you a bounce if they're not the final recipient. The error is returned to your sending server, and your sending server returns that error to you in a bounce message that it generates. That's why almost every failure to deliver a bounce email is a failure of the sending server, not the recipient server.

    Thanked by 1simonindia
  • M66BM66B Veteran

    @jar said:

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

    Car rental companies cannot be incompetent or fail, or refuse to deliver an email to someone who isn't Gmail. Is that your official, intelligent position? Because if it is, then we're obviously done here. That's your logic and it isn't sound, so there's no point in further conversation. If it wasn't in the logs, they didn't try to deliver it. You were probably in their transactional account's bounce suppression list and almost no company big or small even knows how to check that.

    A company I was with had to drop Fastmail because if they filter email to spam folder automatically, they send the email to feedback loops, which causes instant listing on transactional provider suppression lists (which are per sender account at those transactional providers). It lead to missing abuse complaints from Cloudflare. There's a lot about email you don't know.

    @LTniger said:

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

    Silence is bad, but it's not the whole story. Silence exists everywhere, and the most noteworthy source of silence in email is from a company you yourself actually recommended, so let's not pretend like that's what your problem really is.

    You could just admit that maybe there are more complexities to email than you understand, but I suspect that would invalidate your intentions.

    Just a question: do you send a bounce when DKIM / SPF is invalid? IMHO you should, recognizing that things are pretty complicated.

    I either accept it or reject it. If I reject it it's not my job to send a bounce. The bounce is sent by the sending server.

    That's not how it works with Gmail, where it is "message not accepted because of security issues"

    Actually, Gmail doesn't reject 100% of DKIM/SPF failures either. They randomly pick senders to reject based on it. That's word directly from them, though not somewhere I can link you to.

    I can confirm that because that's what I'm seeing too. It looks like some a/b testing, or maybe other criteria are being used.

    Thanked by 1jar
  • jarjar Patron Provider, Top Host, Veteran

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @M66B said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:

    @jar said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Microsoft is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production.

    Sounds good to me but your message contradicts itself here:

    keep it with big players: google, m$,

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/mail-not-received-outlookcom-response-to-sending/fd4211a6-c8e6-41fb-a94e-8254706f2ec1

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-reported-as-250-queued-for-delivery-but/f451cda5-ba7d-45ff-b643-501efe2413dc

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/sendgrid-says-emails-delivered-but-customers-with/62de80ab-c006-4507-86d1-708d255c996d

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-accepted-by-hotmail-but-not-delivered/83621726-60f8-46ce-9416-daf2385acca3

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/messages-sent-to-hotmailcom-are-not-received-and/58b04c0f-9a09-4861-9044-318838339e93

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook_com/forum/all/email-receive-by-hotmail-server-smtp-trace-but-no/628a4586-d5f0-470a-b81a-033400f417d3

    Could post those all day but I think that'll make my point. This is verified behavior, not a list of misunderstandings. Meanwhile I'm only silently discarding bounces to some confirmed spammers (when customers insist on accepting email from them and then run out of disk quota lol) or emails that customers choose to discard by their own intentional settings.

    Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    Sure, when I can. But they're mostly not my job. Bounces are mostly the job of sending servers. Recipient servers only send bounces when they have to accept an email they can't deliver afterward, which isn't a common scenario. Though, for those more rare cases, not all recipient servers accept bounce emails from other providers. Not much you can do about that. Even Google sometimes rejects bounces for emails they let their customers send. Of course, if I know they're not going to accept it in advance, I might not send it.

    If you have any specific events in mind that you'd like to ask me about, I'm happy to answer. Unlike the big companies where it's the way it is, they won't talk to you about it, they charge higher prices, do plenty of things wrong themselves, but still get the benefit of being recommended as production-worthy.

    Holding smaller businesses to higher standards while recommending companies that don't meet those standards is unfortunately very common behavior. Fortunately, it isn't holding me back any. MXroute grows exponentially every day. If MS or Google is anyone's preferred choice, that's fine by me. When it isn't, I'm here

    I had direct monetary damage with car rental company when they sent me invoice and I failed to pay for it. When they charged late fee and phoned me with warning, than I get info redirected to gmail, which was received instantly.

    This was few months ago. I have approached mxroute support and received "nothing in the logs" response.

    Let's not waste time. Everything is forgoten.

    Car rental companies cannot be incompetent or fail, or refuse to deliver an email to someone who isn't Gmail. Is that your official, intelligent position? Because if it is, then we're obviously done here. That's your logic and it isn't sound, so there's no point in further conversation. If it wasn't in the logs, they didn't try to deliver it. You were probably in their transactional account's bounce suppression list and almost no company big or small even knows how to check that.

    A company I was with had to drop Fastmail because if they filter email to spam folder automatically, they send the email to feedback loops, which causes instant listing on transactional provider suppression lists (which are per sender account at those transactional providers). It lead to missing abuse complaints from Cloudflare. There's a lot about email you don't know.

    @LTniger said:

    @M66B said:

    @LTniger said:
    If Jar is doing silent discard of emails, than it is not suitable for business/production. 50% of business use borked email servers, without required DKIM,SPF etc alignment. It is technical blunders, yes, but business is business. mxroute discards (?) emails without notice, which is beyond horrible. Maybe they changed this with proper NDR to sender? Maybe.

    My advice for business - keep it with big players: google, m$, baidu, yandex etc. if you can't afford to loose any communication. If you are able to tolerate enforced rules of "proper smtp and this must be like that" - than go for mxroute.

    After all, if you are paying peanuts - keep your expectations to bare minimum.

    Google has started bouncing emails without valid DKIM and/or SPF recently, and IMHO it would be good if every email provider did.

    Yep, and you exactly know where is the problem. Silence in email is bad.

    Silence is bad, but it's not the whole story. Silence exists everywhere, and the most noteworthy source of silence in email is from a company you yourself actually recommended, so let's not pretend like that's what your problem really is.

    You could just admit that maybe there are more complexities to email than you understand, but I suspect that would invalidate your intentions.

    Just a question: do you send a bounce when DKIM / SPF is invalid? IMHO you should, recognizing that things are pretty complicated.

    I either accept it or reject it. If I reject it it's not my job to send a bounce. The bounce is sent by the sending server.

    That's not how it works with Gmail, where it is "message not accepted because of security issues"

    Actually, Gmail doesn't reject 100% of DKIM/SPF failures either. They randomly pick senders to reject based on it. That's word directly from them, though not somewhere I can link you to.

    I can confirm that because that's what I'm seeing too. It looks like some a/b testing, or maybe other criteria are being used.

    According to Brandon it's random chance. But I think it may stick on the domains randomly selected.

  • varwwwvarwww Member

    What if all the business partners are in the same truck?

    Thanked by 1jar
  • LeviLevi Member

    @varwww said:
    What if all the business partners are in the same truck?

    Local deliveries are the best. Wonder, if one can spam inside jar's network via local delivery.

    Thanked by 2jar varwww
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