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I've consulted for companies like that. Usually barely functional and havent invested in their own engineers in many years. A very needed safety blanket indeed.
I mean why they so insist to make Red Hat to "open-source" they code and why not make they own distribution based last source code they had.
compatibility
Cmon... Whotf likes json in a network config?
You were the one who made me realize this on Discord, thanks to you I switched to Debian on not only that but on most of my servers (from Ubuntu)
Simply switching to Debian and away from Netplan solved my issue on that one server in minutes that I’d been trying to solve for awhile
even chatgpt cant solve that shit
I curious to use RHEL on my production space but after use some months looks nothing promising to me, its like debian but with different style.
Also curious how people using it on they machine and why, google dont let me know that
I guess kind of my question is... why do Rocky and AlmaLinux insist on continuing to piss of Redhat, when they (or somebody else) could become the Redhat of a freely distributed Debian/Ubuntu Enterprise level distribution?
While I'm sure Rocky and AlmaLinux have client bases other than the web hosting industry (less sure about that with AlmaLinux, being born out of CloudLinux which is heavily web hosting centric). But in the web hosting industry most of the server control is done within the control panel being used. The web stack used either comes from binaries from the control panel (i.e. cPanel) or the control panel builds those binaries from source (i.e. DirectAdmin). The underlying OS doesn't really matter... as long as the control panel supports it.
All that's needed from the OS is a sense of longevity. The OS needs to be supported for 8 to 10 years - mostly for kernel updates and other system libraries.
Like I said, it may be a stupid question, but I've never really understood the web hosting industry's reliance on a RHEL based distribution. I understand that it's what we're all used to and change can be hard. But if the industry is going to be constantly troubled by decisions that RHEL make, then maybe it's time to consider something else?
No
No
I don't know about "specifically customized for business" (what does that even mean?) but RH does target businesses and large enterprises as its market.
A big part of this is certification. For example...you want to run Oracle DB or any other product? For Linux, they only run on RHEL or Oracle's clone of it. Full stop. Even if you could hack up a way for the software to run on Debian or Ubuntu, you'll get no support because it's not certified...and no one's going to pay $25-50K per core and then run on an unsupported platform.
That's one example but the number of big enterprisey apps from IBM, Oracle, etc. and the number of industry-specific applications (aircraft maintenance management systems, fuel allocation and management software, mortgage origination tools, etc.) is big.
There's no technical reason a lot of software couldn't run on Ubuntu or whatever, but the publisher would have to invest time to certify it. RHEL benefits enormously from first to market and inertia:
10 people are running RHEL, so it's the best market to certify for.
20 If you've certified for RHEL, why invest the time to certify for something else when certifying for RHEL already covers 95%+ of the market?
30 And why are 95%+ of shop running RHEL? Because the software they want is certified.
40 GOTO 10
But how many people here on Lowendtalk are using Oracle DB?
How many shared hosting providers that use cPanel, DirectAdmin, Cyberpanel, etc. are using Oracle DB?
How many shared hosting providers are using anything except the stack that comes with the control panel they are using?
Granted... I fully understand that this may be a somewhat narrow minded view of all of this. I'm sure there are other industries that use Oracle DB or other RHEL-centric applications. But just within the shared hosting industry, which is where this discussion is centralized here on Lowendtalk, how much of that really matters?
I'm just saying that might it be a better idea for Rocky Linux (for example) instead of pissing off Redhat/IBM by reusing their binaries, create an Enterprise level distribution based on Debian and then fight toe-to-toe with RHEL. They might not overtake RHEL in some of the other industries you mentioned, but could become the go-to distribution for the web hosting industry. Or maybe the web hosting industry just doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things.
Like I said, this could be a stupid question - but it's just puzzled me after the web hosting industry almost immediately flocked to AlmaLinux after the CentOS 8 decision.
I just believe that Alma and Rocky are just alternatives to centos stream.
Creating a new Enterprise level distro is hard, especially while supporting older software... and cPanel is now slowly implementing support for Ubuntu, which I doubt they'll ever do for Debian.
Cloudlinux is also bringing their subsystem to Ubuntu, your idea is happening... Just a bit slow.
So linux not open source, and all fairy tails about linux & everyone can edit - not really true at all? Because only very big players allow to do so, and if they decide to stop that - whole branch of based on big full time programmers paid work for initial distro like RHEL. Than others distros automatically go shutdown, because they just talk too much, while their real work is just changed icons here and there, while everything else developed by someone else? Is not it? Oh, what a sad story. So. They not able to maintain all of that at all? Why need to build another distro if you can't manage it stand-alone? For what? Abusing and parasiting on someone else works great story, but can end very fast with all empty words just by few decisions of people who really doing something for the project.
ow that if RHEL > @sparek said:
Lowendtalk is not Enterprise, RHEL is not even aware of this section of the market because it is not even a roundup error in their budget.
RHEL lives off businesses that does not even hesitate to spend millions of dollars annually on licenses and support contracts. IBM payed $34 billion for Red Hat in 2018, do you think a company like that gives a shit about anything that exists on lowendtalk? Do you know how many $7 deals it would take to get that money back?
How many are using RHEL? We are not RHEL's target market.
Tiny market compared to the massive enterprise market.
The global web hosting market is $95 billion according to what I just googled.
By comparison:
Pharma: $1.3 trillion
Auto: $2.8 trillion
Logistics: $5 trillion
Transportation: $7 trillion
Financial Services: $23 trillion
Etc.
That's who RHEL wants to sell to, not HostGator.
I was on a Delta flight (I think, might have been American) the other day and whatever they use for in-flight TV, etc, wasn't functioning properly... all you could see is a Red Hat logo and a couple of errors terminal style. It was definitely RHEL.
Wonder what they pay for that management contract?
Although the market cap is very misleading
HostGator spends a lot more of their time and money on servers and operating systems compared to Delta
I’m not saying the main argument is wrong, just that while web hosting might nog be the biggest of markets, the whole product is based on Linux
But how many people here are using AlmaLinux, Rocky Linux, and CentOS before all of that?
I think that's the point I was trying to make - I guess I wasn't clear on that.
Most in the web hosting industry (including Lowendtalk) are using some off-shoot of RHEL. But... they're not really using anything that's exclusive to RHEL or it's variants. Thus the question... why is the web hosting industry so dead set on using a RHEL variant?
The one thing I think most web hosting companies want is long term stability. They want an operating system (and a control panel) that will have a lengthy lifetime of kernel updates and other libraries. I don't know what "lengthy lifetime" actually equates to, 8 to 10 years is what I suggested - but the industry would probably better define this.
So... why can't someone or company do a distribution based on Debian or Ubuntu (or something else) that accomplishes this, without having to stand within the piss stream of Redhat?
Someone said that creating an Enterprise level distribution is a tall task. And I'm sure that's true. I'm not going to pretend to know what all is involved in doing that - I certainly don't want to tackle the task. But the writing was on the wall after the CentOS 8 decision, but instead of considering another path, the industry immediately went to another RHEL variant.
@sparek Debian is enterprise ready, whatever that means
Although, only for companies with their own in-house team; and a team good enough to handle stuff that the Red Hat team otherwise could have helped with
And that won’t change because Debian won’t be offering paid support
cPanel started supporting Ubuntu last year. DA already does. RHEL's days in the shared hosting market may be numbered...though if Rocky/Alma's legal hack holds, inertia will probably keep them around.
The software I publish is only certified for Ubuntu 18.04 with 5.4 kernel, full stop.
Even if you could hack up a way for the software to run on CentOS, you'll get no support because it's not certified.
There is indeed a technical reason this software couldn't run on CentOS: I hard-coded all the library paths.
Some user modified the code to make the software run on CentOS, but then they have to redo the modification every month when they pull new updates.
Eventually they gave up and switched to my Docker image.
exactly. RHEL wants to be next "Apple" of Linux-based OS
Apple in what sense?
Monopoly with closed source I guess
Apple has almost the complete opposite philosophy of Red Hat in terms of design/UX/purpose.
The only thing similar is that they both like money. Apple is also firstmost a consumer brand, RHEL's core focus being B2B.
If you talk about desktop Linux (which I use), Fedora (which RH sponsors) is like Apple, whereas Ubuntu is more like Samsung.
Samsung has a bigger global market, but whenever Apple does something everyone else copies them. Samsung takes longer to copy than Google or Xiaomi: look at headphone jacks and removable batteries, as Arch and openSUSE copy Fedora before Ubuntu does.
Red Hat said systemd, GNOME, Wayland, and Flatpak are good, and almost every distro uses them. Ubuntu tried to "compete" with Upstart, Unity, Mir, and Snap, and we've seen where that went. Ubuntu is still trying to get Snap to win, but probably will fail.
There's a reason: Web hosting is a low margin business that also need long support cycles. A server at a web host can easily last a decade or more. There's a reason why hosts stuck with Red Hat-based distros even when average users now choose Ubuntu on their VPS.
Debian and FreeBSD only have 5-year support cycles, so those OSes aren't widely used in hosting. Ubuntu paywalls after 5 years so that's out too. Which host can afford to pay for RHEL without cutting into margins or increasing the price?
Even if we could use Ubuntu, there's a reason CloudLinux made AlmaLinux. There's a reason why Alma and Rocky are major distributions. If we wanted CentOS Stream, Alma/Rocky wouldn't even be conceived.
And if RH shuts down RHEL clones, we will have a lot of insecure servers, outdated AlmaLinux 8 and later 7-year-old Ubuntu 28.04 cPanel/SolusVM servers out of standard LTS support.
Apple, famous for being somewhat anti-A/B testing, is kind of the opposite of most tech companies overall
Apple: You like this.
"Why?"
Apple: Because it's better.
Tbh they’re kind of right