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Merchant save Client credit card without client consent & authorization
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Merchant save Client credit card without client consent & authorization

edited December 2018 in General

Hi,

I would like to ask member of LET about merchant saving client credit card information without their consent and authorization on their billing system. Client asking to remove their credit card information from merchant billing system but merchant refuse to delete the credit card information. Client only authorize their credit card to pay the issued invoice, not to be saved on their billing system.

Poll
  1. What do you think about this?39 votes
    1. It is legal
      17.95%
    2. It is illegal
      74.36%
    3. Or write your own response..
        7.69%
«1

Comments

  • SteveMCSteveMC Member
    edited December 2018

    It depends of their term of service. Read them, and see what they are saying about credit card processing / recording. Providers "should" clearly state in their TOS this kind of things. Asking the credit card to be removed from their billing system can lead to the cancellation of the service. This should be written in their TOS, if not, then it's Illegal

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • WebProjectWebProject Host Rep, Veteran

    It’s normal as legally the merchants need to store the payment details for x amount of years.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • solairesolaire Member
    edited December 2018

    @WebProject said:
    It’s normal as legally the merchants need to store the payment details for x amount of years.

    Payment details does not include creditcard details. Payment details include billing addresses, the amount paid and VAT stuff.

  • Even if there are legal requirements in such or such country, it has to be stated in the TOS.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • @SteveMC said:
    Even if there are legal requirements in such or such country, it has to be stated in the TOS.

    True. Also, if you're in the EU, just use the right to be forgotten to get you out of there.

  • @solaire said:
    True. Also, if you're in the EU, just use the right to be forgotten to get you out of there.

    Indeed. I bet that you can even invoke the GDPR, since, from a credit card number, you can identify an individual, this is considered a personal information.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • @SteveMC said:

    @solaire said:
    True. Also, if you're in the EU, just use the right to be forgotten to get you out of there.

    Indeed. I bet that you can even invoke the GDPR, since, from a credit card number, you can identify an individual, this is considered a personal information.

    Yep, even an ip address is classified as personal information. So from a GDPR perspective, you're good.

  • Things such a MasterCard Secure Code must prevent unautorized charges?

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Logically, they kinda have to save the details in case of refunds & such.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • WebProjectWebProject Host Rep, Veteran

    @solaire said:

    @SteveMC said:
    Even if there are legal requirements in such or such country, it has to be stated in the TOS.

    True. Also, if you're in the EU, just use the right to be forgotten to get you out of there.

    After X amount months or years, example: skrill payment processor - they will remove the info after 6 months only.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • If this is like any business that leaves a small checkbox to save credit card info for next purchase; you should be able to delete it one of the configuration menus. Ebay always gets me with their checkboxes.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    The way you said it in your openeing post, it is illegal, I do however highly doubt you are representing the truth of the matter, rather writing it in such a way to fit your own narrative.

    Is it likely that:

    A. A business goes out of their way to do things illegally and face potential jail time and HUGE fines

    B. You have not described the situation properly.

    I will take a B bob for 1000 points.

  • deankdeank Member, Troll
    edited December 2018

    I think OP's message is clear.

    My answer is that merchant services must save CC / address info for a fixed period in case of chargebacks and whatnot. One can't simply ask to delete their data like that.

    I am waiting for a case of a husband suing his divorced wife for not deleting his phone # on her phone.

  • WebProjectWebProject Host Rep, Veteran
    edited December 2018

    deank said: My answer is that merchant services must save CC / address info for a fixed period in case of chargebacks and whatnot. One can't simply ask to delete their data like that.

    any decent company never ignore a request from customer and remove the paytment details.

    deank said: I am waiting for a case of a husband suing his divorced wife for not deleting his phone # on her phone.

    it will be next most pointless thread on LET. I think it will great if LET will create some competitions like example: the drama queen of 2018 or most pointless discussion of 2018.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    Why are you looking to remove the details? Did you forget to cancel and are upset your card was charged?

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    In near future we will see a case similar to this.

    Person A to his government: Remove my details. I want privacy.
    Government: U sure? There will be consequences.
    Person A: My privacy is most important. So, aye.

    50 years later.

    Person A to his government: My pension was denied why?
    Government: Who are you?

  • @Clouvider said:
    Why are you looking to remove the details? Did you forget to cancel and are upset your card was charged?

    Many people are not comfortable to let merchants take money out of their bank account at any moment they desire. It's true that unbased or illegal charges can be fought with help of your bank or by suing but who wants that. It's better not to leave your wallet at the store than to deal with problems later. Also even companies much bigger than most hosting providers have been hacked and exploted for CC information.

    Thanked by 2chocolateshirt samm
  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    @Yura said:

    @Clouvider said:
    Why are you looking to remove the details? Did you forget to cancel and are upset your card was charged?

    Many people are not comfortable to let merchants take money out of their bank account at any moment they desire. It's true that unbased or illegal charges can be fought with help of your bank or by suing but who wants that. It's better not to leave your wallet at the store than to deal with problems later. Also even companies much bigger than most hosting providers have been hacked and exploted for CC information.

    I’m asking this question out of the context. Trying to find out why is the OP so fussed about it given the protection against unauthorised charges afforded to the cardholders.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • TheLinuxBugTheLinuxBug Member
    edited December 2018

    Easiest answer to this issue - Call your credit card company and tell them you are afraid you number has been used fraudulently and ask for new cards. They will send you new cards with-in less than a week in most cases.

    However, my guess is, this isn't really that important to you and you just wanted to complain. If this was truly important to you, you would have done what I mentioned above and moved on, instead you came to complain here. So really, you are just mad you have been inconvenienced and don't 'like' their choice in how they run their business, too bad! Learn from this and instead of using a credit card use a service like Paypal to pay your bills instead, even if they setup a recurring payment, you can then go back and just cancel the agreement in your own account.

    Also, to me it sounds like you likely did something illegal or against the AUP/TOS to get your services terminated. If this is actually the case, then I don't blame them at all for not wanting to remove your credentials. What if, for example, you were a spammer and dirtied their IPs and in the TOS it states if you dirty the IP addresses you will be billed a fee related to their clean-up of it. Well you may be done with the service, but at the same time there still may be left over incidentals which you owe for, as such, they keep your information on file.

    I am just guessing out loud, but again, what is shady here is your reasoning for them to not have your credentials. If they bill you wrongly, simply call the card company and dispute the charge. I mean, anyone with a card knows this... so are you using someone else's card without permission? A stolen card you don't want linked to you? All the reasons I could think that you would want it removed with such immediacy all seem to be shady as fuck!

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

  • WebProjectWebProject Host Rep, Veteran
    edited December 2018

    Yura said: any moment they desire

    if they do charge customer without any proper reason (just for fun) it's called unauthorised charge therefore all customers do have credit/debit card protection for free and it takes one phone call to use it, if its multiple charges in this case you need to fill the form as your card provider will check for validity of your case.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • I don't think any of them will really wipe your data.
    They might say they do, but...

  • deankdeank Member, Troll

    Yeah, if any merchant services do unauthorized changes, they will be done for.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • @deank said:
    Yeah, if any merchant services do unauthorized changes, they will be done for.

    1. vim tos.html
    2. Add "4.22.7 Any abuse of Services is a subject to $200 fee. Abuse is decided solely by Provider's discretion."
    3. ...
    4. Profit.

    Now any charge is authorized. All guilt is on the Customer who didn't read TOS that can be changed at any moment whatsoever. Good luck with your bank because every month I see Providers justifying literally anything as abuse (from high io load over 5 minutes to speaking funny with CS to landing ip on some obscure list). I repeat: who has time to deal with that shit? If you live in a country where it's undone by one phone call, I'm happy for you.

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    Yura said: 3. ...

    Underpants.

    Did I guess right?

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • YuraYura Member
    edited December 2018

    @AnthonySmith said:

    Yura said: 3. ...

    Underpants.

    Did I guess right?

    For you, I suggest Imodium, it saves the underpants.
    For a hosting provider who believes that whatever they scribble on the TOS page is more sacred than Moses tablets - to live and learn. Especially what happens when PCI DSS suddenly becomes more than just an acronym.
    For a cautious and prepared Customer - use virtual credit card if possible.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • One reason can be about worrying that the Provider be hacked and the credit card information leaked.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • I only pay monthly manual transfer.

    Thanked by 1chocolateshirt
  • HukinHukin Member
    edited December 2018

    Never pay online from main real plastic Credit/Debit card, use Virtual CC with small amount inside. Or use PayPal. If provider not accept prepaid cards, bells must be ringing.

    Thanked by 2eol chocolateshirt
  • @WebProject said:
    ...it takes one phone call to use it, if its multiple charges in this case you need to fill the form as your card provider will check for validity of your case.give you a total and practically indisputable refund that costs the merchant ~$20 + the cost of the service/product. Instead of this being a phone call away for the merchant, it takes a long, time consuming process that rarely ends in the merchant reclaiming funds.

    Fixed that for you, based on experience.

  • edited December 2018

    @Hukin said:
    Things such a MasterCard Secure Code must prevent unautorized charges?

    Some payment processor can process transaction without secure code. You know, as long as you have number, expired and CVC code, you can use the card. Many payment processor can authorize transaction only using those information without needing phone/SMS verification.

    @AnthonySmith said:
    The way you said it in your openeing post, it is illegal, I do however highly doubt you are representing the truth of the matter, rather writing it in such a way to fit your own narrative.

    Is it likely that:

    A. A business goes out of their way to do things illegally and face potential jail time and HUGE fines

    B. You have not described the situation properly.

    I will take a B bob for 1000 points.

    Well.. the point is, if merchant have terms stated that I must fill credit card details to use their services, similar to Vultr billing system, then I am gladly to fill my credit card details into their billing system.

    And I think it was okay if merchant have a tick box option to save credit card to their billing system when we used it to pay their invoice.

    But in my example above the merchant neither have terms stated nor have check box.

    @deank said:
    I think OP's message is clear.

    My answer is that merchant services must save CC / address info for a fixed period in case of chargebacks and whatnot. One can't simply ask to delete their data like that.

    I am waiting for a case of a husband suing his divorced wife for not deleting his phone # on her phone.

    Noted, I think this is make sense.

    @Clouvider said:
    Why are you looking to remove the details? Did you forget to cancel and are upset your card was charged?

    Because they save my credit card without my consent and my authorization. My services are working normally and my next invoice still have a long way to go. I will pay all the invoices if I want. I will cancel services and will not renew it when I do not need their services anymore.

    @TheLinuxBug said:
    Easiest answer to this issue - Call your credit card company and tell them you are afraid you number has been used fraudulently and ask for new cards. They will send you new cards with-in less than a week in most cases.

    However, my guess is, this isn't really that important to you and you just wanted to complain. If this was truly important to you, you would have done what I mentioned above and moved on, instead you came to complain here. So really, you are just mad you have been inconvenienced and don't 'like' their choice in how they run their business, too bad! Learn from this and instead of using a credit card use a service like Paypal to pay your bills instead, even if they setup a recurring payment, you can then go back and just cancel the agreement in your own account.

    Also, to me it sounds like you likely did something illegal or against the AUP/TOS to get your services terminated. If this is actually the case, then I don't blame them at all for not wanting to remove your credentials. What if, for example, you were a spammer and dirtied their IPs and in the TOS it states if you dirty the IP addresses you will be billed a fee related to their clean-up of it. Well you may be done with the service, but at the same time there still may be left over incidentals which you owe for, as such, they keep your information on file.

    I am just guessing out loud, but again, what is shady here is your reasoning for them to not have your credentials. If they bill you wrongly, simply call the card company and dispute the charge. I mean, anyone with a card knows this... so are you using someone else's card without permission? A stolen card you don't want linked to you? All the reasons I could think that you would want it removed with such immediacy all seem to be shady as fuck!

    my 2 cents.

    Cheers!

    Thank you for your suggestion. My services are working normally and I am not doing something illegal on my services so no issue with their TOS/AUP. My reason is they doing that without my authorization & without my consent.

    @SteveMC said:
    One reason can be about worrying that the Provider be hacked and the credit card information leaked.

    This is true.

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