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Budget European Colo Anyone?

Budget European Colo Anyone?

randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider
edited January 16 in General

Anyone interested in low cost EU colocation?

Looking at expanding our operations in Lithuania, we may have a significant excess in capacity.

I'm considering a different approach to colo services and I'm putting this out there to bounce some ideas.

Traditionally, with colocation, prices are based on a per U or per Rack basis. So I'm thinking of trying something different and essentially offering the physical space for free, and instead charging for only the resources used, such as electricity, bandwidth and remote hands.

I'm considering a pricing structure similar to the following:


Physical Space: Free (within reason)
Power: EUR 0.15 /KwH (approx 24 EUR/m per 1amp)
Bandwidth: From EUR 0.50 /Mbit
Remote Hands: EUR 40 /hr

IPv4 and IPv6 BGP sessions available.
DDoS Protection available.

Setup Fee Applicable. Rates depend on your specific setup.


This is not an offer, just a general idea of what may be available in the not too distant future.

Regarding the 'Free' space (within reason), this does not mean you can use our DC for unlimited free storage. The space we would provide would be expected for actual and active use. So there would be a limit to how much inactive equipment we would store for free. Some inactive equipment would of course be acceptable as 'stock' for future deployment.

There would otherwise be no real limitation on the size or quantity of equipment sent. Tower cases, Book PCs, 4U, 2U, 8U, whatever. The only thing size may affect is the initial setup cost. Otherwise, on a monthly basis, there would be no difference.

What do you all think of such a pricing model?

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Comments

  • hostdarehostdare Member, Provider

    You should not offer free space at all . charge less but charge something

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    Thanked by 2Aidan Clouvider
  • AidanAidan Member

    hostdare said: You should not offer free space at all . charge less but charge something

    This.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    @hostdare said: You should not offer free space at all . charge less but charge something

    Interesting. Why? Of course space is not free, but nothing is free, and yet more and more services are basically becoming 'free' (actually just being included) when purchased with another service.

  • WSSWSS Member

    @hostdare said: You should not offer free space at all . charge less but charge something

    Yep.

    I won't be back until @bsdguy is released.

  • AidanAidan Member

    randvegeta said: Interesting. Why? Of course space is not free, but nothing is free, and yet more and more services are basically becoming 'free' (actually just being included) when purchased with another service.

    As it'll be abused, it's not worth the headache & man hours.

  • MasonRMasonR Moderator

    Perfect place to put a 10U chasis I just got for my Raspberry Pi! :D

    Thanked by 3Aidan hostdare steny
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider
    edited January 16

    @hostdare said: You should not offer free space at all . charge less but charge something

    For example, most colo offers include power. No one expect to pay extra for the power they use with their rack.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    MasonR said: Perfect place to put a 10U chasis I just got for my Raspberry Pi! :D

    Dude, I would host that completely free for you! Honestly! I'd put a picture of that on the website to show what kind of nut-job clients we get!

    Aidan said: As it'll be abused, it's not worth the headache & man hours.

    Perhaps I haven't thought this through. But how would you imagine this being abused? People sending in 10U chassis with a single raspberry pi in it? XD

    Thanked by 1MasonR
  • @hostdare said: You should not offer free space at all . charge less but charge something

    $7

  • hostdarehostdare Member, Provider

    randvegeta said: Interesting. Why?

    people will buy one service and fill up the more free space with their garbage later . so charge little per u too which will deter such abusers eventually or you will fighting daily with logic of what is inactive equipment

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  • hostdarehostdare Member, Provider

    beagle said: $7

    1-7 USD will work even haha

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  • hostdarehostdare Member, Provider

    randvegeta said: No one expect to pay extra for the power they use with their rack.

    many Europe DC charge per kwh . not common in USA DC though

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  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    hostdare said: people will buy one service and fill up the more free space with their garbage later . so charge little per u too which will deter such abusers eventually or you will fighting daily with logic of what is inactive equipment

    Innactive = not powered. If it's powered, then it must be paid for. The only thing then would be the concern that people would be senidng in power hungry devices without actually buying any other services like bandwidth, or IPs. But as mentioned in my initial post, they won't be able to just send a bunch of stuff and expect free storage. Active means powered on.

    Also, we are currently using standard 42U racks. Sending in standard 2U rackmounted servers would be the easiest setup, and so generally have the lowest setup fees. But sending in towers and what not would add a little extra work, and so a setup fee can off-set this nicely.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    hostdare said: 1-7 USD will work even haha

    In true LET style, I will scrap the 'free' space for a $7 charge for an in-determinant amount of physical space!

  • Apologies for the newbie question, but how does that work for a port with limited bandwidth (i.e. 1Gbps, 10TB) giving the bandwidth price is per Mbit (unlimited?) ?

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    beagle said: Apologies for the newbie question, but how does that work for a port with limited bandwidth (i.e. 1Gbps, 10TB) giving the bandwidth price is per Mbit (unlimited?) ?

    Not sure I understand the question.

    Are you asking if pricing on a per mbit basis means unlimited data transfer? If so, kind of.

    1Mbit gives you approximately 317GB of data transfer in a month. 1Mbit cannot transfer more than that in any given month (well you can get up and down for a total of 634GB, but that's 2 directions).

    So pricing bandwidth per mbit can give you 'unlmited' data transfer. But you're limited by the speed... so it's still limited.

  • Uhm, that would be about 100€/mo for a relatively modest standard server with only 50 Mb connectivity.

    For that kind of money I could easily get that incl. the server (dedi) and 100 Mb. But, of course, free space sounds attractive.

    My favourite prime number is 42. - \forall cpu in {intel, amd, arm}: cpu->speed -= cpu->speed/100 x irandom(15, 30) | state := hacked

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider
    edited January 16

    @bsdguy said: Uhm, that would be about 100€/mo for a relatively modest standard server with only 50 Mb connectivity.

    For that kind of money I could easily get that incl. the server (dedi) and 100 Mb. But, of course, free space sounds attractive.

    Not sure how you've come to that number...

    A typical server uses about 0.2-0.3 amps of power. So that's about EUR 7.30 for power. EUR 0.50 * 100Mbit = EUR 50 /month.

    So a colo server with 100Mbit bandwidth would cost around EUR 57.30 /month. That's 100Mbit dedicated, so 30TB traffic.

  • hzrhzr Member

    how much would you charge for a standard rpi? I have a case for it, but no rackmount chassis.

  • I don't know about your servers but the ones I know are typ. in the range of 400 to 600W which in europe (230V) translates to about 2 Amp.

    Anyway, I was just surprised. Nothing against you or your idea.

    My favourite prime number is 42. - \forall cpu in {intel, amd, arm}: cpu->speed -= cpu->speed/100 x irandom(15, 30) | state := hacked

  • hostdarehostdare Member, Provider

    E3 severs standalone use little power than big vps nodes with dual cpu and ram disk etc

    HostDare - One of the cheapest and coolest providers online! :) | Our premium unmanaged vps plans | Cheap Shared Hosting

  • @randvegeta said:

    beagle said: Apologies for the newbie question, but how does that work for a port with limited bandwidth (i.e. 1Gbps, 10TB) giving the bandwidth price is per Mbit (unlimited?) ?

    Not sure I understand the question.

    Are you asking if pricing on a per mbit basis means unlimited data transfer? If so, kind of.

    1Mbit gives you approximately 317GB of data transfer in a month. 1Mbit cannot transfer more than that in any given month (well you can get up and down for a total of 634GB, but that's 2 directions).

    So pricing bandwidth per mbit can give you 'unlmited' data transfer. But you're limited by the speed... so it's still limited.

    Again apologies if I'm mixing different concepts (i.e. port speed vs bandwidth) here, but let's suppose I want a 1Gbps port (so I can have bursts of 1Gbps) but would only use 10TB/m of bandwidth.

    For instance, a backup server that runs a job at night but needs enough speed so the job finishes before the morning shift starts. I would need the port speed but the traffic would be limited. (or maybe someone can give a better example where you need port speed but not a lot of traffic).

    What would be the costs? Assuming the typical server power consumption you mentioned above (0.2 - 0.3 A).

  • hostdarehostdare Member, Provider

    beagle said: beagle

    This is a risk for the hosts too unless they have big fat pipes to absorb the spike because all upstream charge with 95% system

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    Thanked by 1beagle
  • hawchawc Member, Moderator

    What's your ability to cool like?

  • AidanAidan Member

    beagle said: What would be the costs?

    You'd most likely have to pay based on 95th percentile usage then.

    Thanked by 1beagle
  • lionlion Member

    What makes you better than https://www.bacloud.com/en/colocation ?

  • williewillie Member, Moderator

    I like the idea of billing by the kwh instead of flat rate for X amps. I know Hetzner does that but haven't heard of it in the US. I could imagine the free space being nice if I wanted to install something like a tape library, though that's not so likely in practice.

    Asking only from theoretical interest since I'm in the US and not likely to colo anything in EU: what is the minimum increment for remote hands?

  • qpsqps Member, Provider

    willie said: I like the idea of billing by the kwh instead of flat rate for X amps. I know Hetzner does that but haven't heard of it in the US.

    It is definitely the default method of billing worldwide for most wholesale commits.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    willie said: Asking only from theoretical interest since I'm in the US and not likely to colo anything in EU: what is the minimum increment for remote hands?

    I suppose 15 mins after the first hour.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider
    edited January 16

    hawc said: What's your ability to cool like?

    Ample capacity to cool. We expect to be able to keep the ambient temperature at a similar level to the outside temperature, meaning we would only need to use actual coolant during the very rare hot days. Otherwise, water based cooling should provide us ample capacity given the amount of power we have.

    lion said: What makes you better than https://www.bacloud.com/en/colocation ?

    What makes them better than us? What makes anyone better or worse than anyone else?

    Network (routing) wise, they are kind of similar to us. So pricing wise, if you assume a 999 EUR /month budget (where they offer a 42U full rack), which includes 100TB (call that an average of 300Mbit) traffic and 1.5kw of power, my pricing model would be around 330 EUR (1/3 the price) and include much more space.

    Of course maybe you specifically need 10TB burstable traffic, and we could not offer that at the moment. So if that 10TB burst is worth 670 EUR, then go for BACloud. But for that extra 670 EUR, we could offer an additional 1,340Mbit, for a total of 1,640Mbit. That equates to about 500TB monthly data transfer.

    Ultimately, there are always differences between certain providers and it will come down to preference. Our DC is based in Kaunas, and theirs is in Siaulai. Kaunas may be better for many due to better transport links over Siaulai, but then if that matters to you, maybe Vilnius or Klaipeda would be preferable.

    But ours will be based in Kaunas.

    Thanked by 1beagle
  • hzrhzr Member

    randvegeta said: Ample capacity to cool. We expect to be able to keep the ambient temperature at a similar level to the outside temperature, meaning we would only need to use actual coolant during the very rare hot days. Otherwise, water based cooling should provide us ample capacity given the amount of power we have.

    How cold is it there usually, out of curiosity?

  • AidanAidan Member

    @hzr said:

    randvegeta said: Ample capacity to cool. We expect to be able to keep the ambient temperature at a similar level to the outside temperature, meaning we would only need to use actual coolant during the very rare hot days. Otherwise, water based cooling should provide us ample capacity given the amount of power we have.

    How cold is it there usually, out of curiosity?

    Cold, apparently.

    July is the hottest month in Kaunas with an average temperature of 17°C (63°F) and the coldest is February at -5°C (24°F) with the most daily sunshine hours at 10 in July. The wettest month is June with an average of 80mm of rain.

  • WSSWSS Member

    Water based cooling.. like.. a swamp cooler? How's the battery backup/generator/et al status?

    I won't be back until @bsdguy is released.

  • bacloudbacloud Member, Provider
    edited January 16

    @randvegeta said:

    Network (routing) wise, they are kind of similar to us. So pricing wise, if you assume a 999 EUR /month budget (where they offer a 42U full rack), which includes 100TB (call that an average of 300Mbit) traffic and 1.5kw of power, my pricing model would be around 330 EUR (1/3 the price) and include much more space.

    Of course maybe you specifically need 10TB burstable traffic, and we could not offer that at the moment. So if that 10TB burst is worth 670 EUR, then go for BACloud. But for that extra 670 EUR, we could offer an additional 1,340Mbit, for a total of 1,640Mbit. That equates to about 500TB monthly data transfer.

    Ultimately, there are always differences between certain providers and it will come down to preference. Our DC is based in Kaunas, and theirs is in Siaulai. Kaunas may be better for many due to better transport links over Siaulai, but then if that matters to you, maybe Vilnius or Klaipeda would be preferable.

    But ours will be based in Kaunas.

    Well, I do not agree with you about routes. We have almost the same routes and almost the same pings and more than 90% client's outside Lithuania. Does 1 - 3 ping changes anything in Europe, in the world? Nothing. Klaipeda? Are you serious? Do you know any data center in Klaipeda? Sorry, but I do not know any serious data center in Kaunas. Almost all data centers are located in Vilnius and ping to Vilnius from Kaunas and Siauliai will be almost the same. It will be a bit higher from Klaipeda ( end point of the network ring ). Klaipeda has a line to Sweden ( Telia ), but Telia is not flexible with high prices and old technologies. We had Telia and cancelled the contract. Probably no one likes our town, doesn't look serious to host servers in Siauliai? LOL, people, make it simpler. We have direct line to Riga and you don't. But It doesn't change anything.

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  • hzrhzr Member
    edited January 16

    what. I understand none of that, why is riga important here, 3 ping is a huge difference :??

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  • WSSWSS Member

    Well, this was a change of events I didn't expect.

    I won't be back until @bsdguy is released.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    bacloud said: Well, I do not agree with you about routes. We have almost the same routes and almost the same pings and more than 90% client's outside Lithuania. Does 1 - 3 ping changes anything in Europe, in the world? Nothing. Klaipeda? Are you serious? Do you know any data center in Klaipeda? Sorry, but I do not know any serious data center in Kaunas. Almost all data centers are located in Vilnius and ping to Vilnius from Kaunas and Siauliai will be almost the same. It will be a bit higher from Klaipeda ( end point of the network ring ). Klaipeda has a line to Sweden ( Telia ), but Telia is not flexible with high prices and old technologies. We had Telia and cancelled the contract. Probably no one likes our town, doesn't look serious to host servers in Siauliai? LOL, people, make it simpler. We have direct line to Riga and you don't. But It doesn't change anything.

    There are not a lot of top tier choices in LT, and just about all ISPs have the same upstreams. So what I meant was performance and international routes will be similar.

    As for my comments about Klaipeda, well thats mainly due to slightly better transport links. And by transport, I mean road/rail/sea (not network) and so it may be SLIGHTLY easier in one of the 'big' cities. Siaulai doesn't strike me as a major hub of anything (no offence) so I don't imagine that transport links to be particularly good. Vilnius is the capital, Klaipeda is the port, and Kaunas is the industrial centre that is in between the two, that happens to have an 'international' air port. Many logistics pass through Kaunas. I don't think anything really 'passes' through Siaulai. But this is not really important. I don't think there is any problem with hosting in Siaulai at all, particularly if you are doing VPS/Cloud/Dedicated servers with clients mostly overseas. But if you're a Vilnius customer looking for colo in LT, and you have to drive you gear to the DC, Kaunas would probably be preferable over Siaulai (of course Vilnius would be even more preferable). And if you're going to fly into LT to install your own gear, Kaunas and Vilnius would be easier to get to since you have to fly to one of those cities any way.

  • lionlion Member

    urg i didn't want to start that

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    @lion said: urg i didn't want to start that

    You kind of asked a loaded question. I have a lot of respect for @bacloud, but it's hard to answer that question without kind of being a dick.

  • hzrhzr Member

    lion said: urg i didn't want to start that

    Other things you don't want to start: purchase the game "playerunknown's battlegrounds", queue on any server, and in the lobby loudly yell the statement that Taiwan is an independent country.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    WSS said: Water based cooling.. like.. a swamp cooler? How's the battery backup/generator/et al status?

    Our current UPS backups have enough battery to to last about 45 minutes at full load. We only have a small generator, which we have recently grown out of, and so we currently rent a big generator for whenever there are long instances of power maintenance. With that in mind, we are installing a 2nd supply of power from a different substation. In order for both of our power sources to go down simultaneously, basically the whole city would have to be without power. Long term I think we would rather invest in more battery capacity than a generator.

    As for cooling, our current setup mainly uses traditional coolant based air-conditioning. Our density is too high to use water cooling only year round. But with the new space, we expect a reduced density, and so our water cooling method would be sufficient even in the summer. As @Aiden said, even summer is not that hot, so it would be only a few days (or couple of weeks) per year where we may need a little more 'umpf'.

    Anything below 25C is fine for all computer/server gear. Why some DC's run at 17C is beyond me. Getting below 20C would trivial for most of the year, and would only be difficult to get below 25C if the outside temperature is above 22-23C. In which case we could supplement with old fashioned A/C cooling.

  • lurchlurch Member

    How much to Colo a pi?

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    lurch said: How much to Colo a pi?

    They use so little power. Call the power 1EUR /month. I assume bandwidth will be low too? So call that another 1EUR /month. So from 2 EUR /month? + installation + remote hands + any other add-ons. Will give IPv6 for free, but an IPv4.... another 1 EUR! So 3 EUR /month so far. Too much? :D

  • LordSpockLordSpock Member, Provider

    This would be a great pricing model, but as mentioned before - it would be preferable to have limited data transfer on a higher port speed. (many users burst but don't push a full port). Also, what would your DDoS protection prices be?

    Charging for space would make sense for inactive boxes at a minimum, perhaps this should be an introductory offer and not anything permanent.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    LordSpock said: Charging for space would make sense for inactive boxes at a minimum, perhaps this should be an introductory offer and not anything permanent.

    Oh I forgot to mention, that it would probably not be a 'life-long' model. Space is not unlimited or free, and we could not possibly know what the future conditions will be. So we would probably limit this to about half our capacity.

    Charging for storage of inactive boxes would definitely be done. Since I mentioned that we would not provide free storage space, I figured it would was pretty clear that we would charge for off-line storage. But we would allow for some small amount of gear to be 'stored' and read to deployed. If you're doing colo, you almost certainly will need some stock ready at all times.

  • lurchlurch Member

    @randvegeta said:

    lurch said: How much to Colo a pi?

    They use so little power. Call the power 1EUR /month. I assume bandwidth will be low too? So call that another 1EUR /month. So from 2 EUR /month? + installation + remote hands + any other add-ons. Will give IPv6 for free, but an IPv4.... another 1 EUR! So 3 EUR /month so far. Too much? :D

    I'm in

  • 6ixth6ixth Member

    I feel like the bandwidth is a bit pricey.... 150 EUR for 300Mbps 95th%?

  • WSSWSS Member

    @6ixth said: I feel like the bandwidth is a bit pricey.... 150 EUR for 300Mbps 95th%?

    Given that the space is virtually free, that's a huge discount if you need, say, about 20U of it..

    I won't be back until @bsdguy is released.

  • 6ixth6ixth Member
    edited January 17

    @WSS said:

    @6ixth said: I feel like the bandwidth is a bit pricey.... 150 EUR for 300Mbps 95th%?

    Given that the space is virtually free, that's a huge discount if you need, say, about 20U of it..

    Understandable if you have a big operation but I'm thinking from a perspective of me colocating a 1-2U server. The price wouldn't be feasible compared to other ones that include the price of rack etc.

    I'm assuming it's Gbit port but limited to 95% bandwidth? For example 90TBish if it was 300Mbps.

  • randvegeta said: They use so little power. Call the power 1EUR /month. I assume bandwidth will be low too? So call that another 1EUR /month. So from 2 EUR /month? + installation + remote hands + any other add-ons. Will give IPv6 for free, but an IPv4.... another 1 EUR! So 3 EUR /month so far. Too much? :D

    This would be perfect for small seedbox/FTP server.

    A Pi3 +1TB HDD disk cost around 60EUR. Then 3EUR/month but what if I use too much bw? Let's say 10TB+ (around 33Mbps+ at 95th%)?

    Note: This is my normal usage at home.

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