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We used to allow non-exit nodes, but as a good number of our clients are either ESL or don't speak English at all, we've had issues with the "but you said Tor is allowed I didn't know about exit nodes" way too often. When dealing with those got to the point that it was interrupting my regular duties, it was time to just eliminate the problem at the source.
So, if they dont speak English they cant read AUP/ToS also... Or even make the transaction to pay for the service for that matter. Who doesnt know what an exit node is cant put it up in a command line VPS in 99% of the cases. I really dont understand you, you dont want to allow Tor, fine, dont make up excuses, you dont have to.
In general, democracy is not granted, is not won for ever, you need to constantly fight the government for your rights. In some cases, even in US this is dangerous, ppl need to hide so they dont lose their job or get put in jail under one pretext or another, democracy only works because ppl think and have reasons to believe it is hard to be tracked and identified. If it wouldnt be possible, all army ppl, all government ppl, in general, public servants, policemen, ppl working in big companies with even one goverment contract so on and so forth, WILL NOT risk their jobs and even more for an abstract idea as democracy, usually untill it is too late and then only a mass uprising would be able to overthrow the government with a lot of losses on all sides as we see in Surya or other countries. If you are afraid AND you cant hide well enough, you cant be free, if you are not afraid and dont try to hide, you will end up with fake cases against you (rape, child pornography, smoked a joint in college, etc) and even if you prove you are innocent once, the ordeal will continue till you either give up, kill yourself or go to jail.
Some ppl say it is not worth the risk, fine, lets discuss the risk, I keep asking for cases where Tor operators or providers have been suffering in the last years but ppl keep avoiding it and make up other excuses instead even tho they dont have to because it is their right not to allow x and y service in their network.
I expected the ppl that started a crusade against Tor and anonimity in general to have better arguments than "we know you are villain because you have something to hide and 95% of the traffic is kiddie porn" kinda argumentation. There are 0 facts to back up those claims, at least no more than the ones that would make the case to outlaw httpd because there are illegal sites out there.
The only valid reason that I see here is the fact that they sold more bw than they had, but even this can se settled, for example, there can be Tor offers with higher price per BW, located on a different node with low specs in hdd cpu and memory and unmettered bw from upstream, etc. If there is a will, there is a way, at a minimum, non-exit nodes should be OK with any honest provider, they generate 0 bot complaints, 0 police warrants, 0 risk of seizure, much less problems than even httpd or any other allowed usage, there are 0 arguments against non-exit nodes, the fact that some ppl could abuse it cant be an argument because abusers are kicked from all the other allowed services, even if it wasnt their fault such as an outofcontrol script or DDoSes.
We, the customers, agree this is cheap and we take the risks involved which include termination at any time as outlined in the ToS most of the time, who, in their right mind, would sue for 7 bucks, but we also expect an honest host that doesnt make up reasons for that and there is at least some evidence to support their claims.
I would never buy a VPS from Aldryic, because he proved he is dishonest and I wont risk being shut down because he imagined something, tho that risk exists with all providers and it happened to me for VPSes without Tor, for example, and everyone here happened to see that at least once provided they have VPSes for some time, but I consider Aldryic to pose a high risk due to paranoia and dishonesty because he continues to beat around the bush with the same 0 proven facts, constantly avoiding to provide proof for his claims. He is not the only one in this thread, tho, and, again, it is perfectly fine to disallow whatever they want, but making false claims and empty propaganda does not recomend them.
As some ppl say, I would never buy a VPS from someone like that, even if it costs one dollar, it is not worth the time to sign up for it and the time to write tickets back and forth if there is 0 will and honesty at the other end, no matter if it involves false DRM claims or supposedly high resource usage. For an honest dialog, we need honesty on both ends, honest arguments, backed up by at least some facts.
M
@maounique: You're right. All of us are completely wrong. You win.
We'll host you. There is, however, a slight fee to offset costs of potential lawsuits. I'm sure you understand, especially considering the unlimited value of free speech, since all that matters is getting yourself heard. I'm not sure what we'll do when the FBI raids our datacenter and shysters all of our servers, as this will cause you to lose connectivity. Not saying that it's YOU that caused it, of course. (cause Tor is anonymous n' stuff, ya know?)
Please sign up here: https://ipxcore.com/order/cart.php?a=add&pid=26 and we'll get you going. Thanks.
I have a PHP script that blocks people using Tor if anyone wants it.
Pfft, haven't you read @maounique 's crusade? Tor users do absolutely nothing wrong, ever. They will be the best clients we've ever had!
I love the $50k MRC, best plan ever!
This may have been asked before, but can anyone actually provide a source for Tor exit nodes being seized?
The only thing a quick google search brought up was something in Australia.
That really made me laugh
@Damian i have paid for one, waiting for the setup details
50K is that for real or?
50k monthly? that seems real... with 1 month money, you can pay a good lawyer.
@Damian Your AUP/TOS need to be updated. It still says:
I look forward to it.
@RaidLogic: Yes.
For your $50k per month, this will get you your own server, a pretty badass one too. Probably something Opteron powered, with 32 cores, 128gb of ram, and a few terabytes of 15k SAS storage. Along with 320 terabytes per month of transfer, though we could do bonded ethernet for more transfer if you need it.
The remainder of the MRC will go towards anticipated lawyer fees to get our servers (and therefore, our customer's servers) back from the feds, when they raid our stuff. I'm NOT going to stand outside the datacenter and blockade them, saying "lozl the laws say this is illegal", cause that'd get my fat ass shot dead, probably.
I'd recommend signing up soon; we have a 50%-off-your-first-month coupon this month celebrating the 100th anniversary of Arizona's statehood. This drops the price to a mind numbingly low price of $25k. Act fast!
@torsurfer: Since it's Not Possible to determine what Tor is used for, it's not possible to determine if a Tor proxy is open or not. It might be open, it might not be, but since testing it would break anonymity, we may never know. It's kinda like a modern-day Schrodinger's Cat.
Speaking of quantum physics, it's quite possible that Tor encompasses a greater space than the largest container it's contained within... quantum physics for the Internet, and the best we can use it for is child porn terrorism stealing credit card and paypal info slander and libel what do you use this damn thing for? Nevermind, wouldn't be anonymous if you told me...
Regardless, since Tor users never do anything wrong ever, we'll never notice the tor process or the polipo process running. Is it there? Is it not? Who knows.... "CAN'T SEE ME!" is the name of the game.
Sign up. Immediately. The world is going to hell, because you're not doing 100% everything you can to propagate free speech, and this makes you a Bad Person because of it. The price may be a little steep, but hell with that, mortgage your house! Sell your children! YOU MUST PAY FOR THIS SERVICE!
I am also interested.
@Damian, don't worry bro, we understand your "world is black & white" fears! :P
Thank you very much for your offer !
However, since you had servers seized before and you know many ppl that have been sued, I will consider hosting in a more free country.
Besides, since you host terrorist stuff for the right price and whatever you enumerated up there, I am not interested in such shady business, since Tor is a legal affair supported by the US Navy and will only be hosted in legit datacenters as well as legit homes that have nothing illegal in case of police raids which happen very often at your place/country.
A Tor non-exit node cant be considered open proxy under any circumstances, except by the ppl that have no idea what Tor and/or open proxy is, so your AUP/ToS allow it in the regular hosting also. You may want to speciffically forbid either Tor or relays of any kind that include Tor, of course.
I asked for some links about seized hardware in connection with Tor, or any intrusion by law-enforcement for that matter, Damian, remember, it has to be Tor related, your past checkered history with the Law is not relevant here, but I still dont see anything yet even tho I know of some cases prior to 2008 which usually ended in apologies and since then the cops learned the lessons. However, it may be that I am not aware of something and I am eagerly awaiting for the proofs.
From what I know, there are much LESS problems with Tor operators than with any other allowed service in all VPS-hosting datacenters (from httpd to sendmail), but, of course, that is irelevant here...
M
The coupon isn't working wtf!? And I still didn't received the details of my first package
xDDDDD
You've been scammed, sweetheart! (futurama quote)
OMFG! 50k! My BMW Q_Q
No, MY BMW
Wait.... wasn't that to cover legal fees?
Is it just me, or the links to seized Tor nodes and arrested operators and raided datacenters are still missing ?
M
It really just boils down to it is not your equipment to dictate what is/isn't run on it, if you wish to run a Tor exit node, buy/lease a dedicated server and have at it.
It is not about that, ppl said they dont want Tor BECAUSE of lawsuits and seizure of hardware. As I said many times, they have the right to reject any customer they want to reject, but making up excuses and throwing unverified acusations around is an entirely different matter.
As such, their claims are still marked as UNVERIFIED till a suitable proof is provided.
M
P.S. It is not a matter of owning or not the equipment, ToS are usually for all traffic, either vps or dedi. If the provider doesnt want Tor for whatever made up reason, they wont allow it, period, till they get to know what Tor is and what is not.
Maybe none of the hosts here want to be the first to test the waters on what the government thinks?
I put our company up for it on a prior post, but none of you crusaders signed up. I guess it's not that big of a deal after all..
No, I clearly stated in this thread that we don't allow Tor because we have no desire to enable some of the filth that Tor allows. Yes, yes, "CP can be hosted anywhere on the internet"... the difference is, I would receive an abuse report for that trash hosted on a regular httpd, and deal with the client accordingly.
I know very well that Tor has legitimate uses. But in my opinion, those legitimate uses simply aren't enough to justify enabling a network that allows for hosting/sharing of filth with little to no consequence. 'Fighting the Man' is good and all, but not at that cost.
I wish to remind you of this..
So, right back to you. Moral stances aside, you are right, I have not personally seen any cases where hardware was seized due to Tor usage. Nor did I care to look. But I also haven't seen any examples of a provider being put under federal pressure, and walking away unharmed.
And my professional opinion working for a provider: Even if we did not care to take a moral stance against the dirtier things that Tor can make possible, your attitude and complete disrespect for every provider's opinion so far (not to mention that I've ONLY seen you comment on pro-Tor subjects) makes me feel that we would not want to allow Tor anyways, if only to avoid having to deal with clients that make some sort of holy crusade over questioning policy.
Tim's right. The bottom line is our house, our rules. If you don't like our policies, feel free to peruse warez forums and find yourself a suitable host. The only thing this thread has done is pretty much convince every provider here that the income from the sale would never justify the headache of dealing with you as a client.
I'll make you the same offer @Damian did, $50k/mo and you can run a Tor exit node, I don't see why I should be the only one assuming the risks, but if you are willing to put up, I'll shut up.
Seeing as im bored, i did a quick google search. There are a few references to tor nodes being ceased, sometimes as part of a larger haul of equipment. Nothing much on people actually being sued or locked up, however there are plenty of raids on peoples houses, arrests and general unpleasantness with the law enforcement agencys.
I thik thos archive piece from 2007 sums is up for me really
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1832345
I'm sure people will have plenty to say about governments bullying the little guy and how this is exactly what they were trying to achieve and how he should stand up for his rights as he isn't doing anything wrong. But most people just want a quiet life...
Yes, that was a case in 2007 and I asked for cases in the last 3 years. Police learned some lessons since then.
DMCA has safe harbour provisions, for example, if you want some cases of providers being protected, however, if you dont provide cases where ppl were harmed, i cant show the law protected them.
You want here to prove police protects the innocent when there were no cases of anyone being harmed provided.
Yes, those two cases exist, there were some Tor nodes seized in a DC that had CP hosted and those were colateral damage quickly returned, but not because of Tor but because of the CP hosted near.
Regarding the so-called filth Tor enables, cool, you should also shut down the Internet, without it there will be less terrorism and less traffic of arms and drugs, the phones will be easier to wiretap and more criminals will be behind bars. Nobody is against Internet per se, and it has some legal use, but many ppl and kids use it to access filth, so, of course, it should be terminated.
Damian provided a case showing he is willing to risk anything for a quick buck since every provider posting here KNOWS Tor is used for criminal purposes, he is throwing away his convictions and fears for a BMW, if anything, this thread does make the difference between ppl which are here for a quick buck and the others that want to learn, to help others, etc at their expense.
I am running Tor from home and pushing in excess of 3 TB every month, sometimes up to 10, it costs me 20 EUR including VAT, fortunatelly I dont need any LEB for my personal contribution, however, I only came to this thread BECAUSE of the false acusations thrown by ppl that have no idea what Tor is and what the Tor operators stand for.
I have LEBs pushing traffic also, met quite a few providers that understood what this is about and even helped us (I am in this with another person that manages them) with special offers and IPs in different ranges and areas. Sure, years passed by and some of them are no longer in business while I also moved out to other IPs, other DCs, etc, because it is easier to block big nodes, but harder for the smaller ones that keep moving around.
Ppl that really want to do something dont stumble on the first rejection and keep trying till they find a way, what attracted me to this thread is the filth poured over Tor and the volunteers that keep it alive for the ppl that need it to fight the criminal regimes and spread the word about atrocities, conspiracies and corruption all over the world.
You reject this, fine, but do it with facts, not hearsay.
M
Please, go to http://burst.net/servers-la.shtml and get the 349 server per month, and get your tor node and sell vps allowing that. Simple as that
Fact: A user can host a non-Tor site filled with CP, and the host/provider will quickly be alerted by either abuse channels or direct government intervention. The client is dealt with, the filth is removed, and the host/provider is no longer enabling such a sick trade.
Fact: A user can host a private Tor-only site filled with CP, and the provider will likely never know of it, receive any abuse or complaints, etc.
Fact: We will not support a project that gives users the ability to host/pass material that violates a providers TOS/AUP, and enables such action without consequences, repercussion.
The word you need to pay attention there is "can".
Someone "can" war-drive around, access some WEP/unprotected wireless net, forward some ports (or even without) on a default password router and spread as much CP as the BW holds.
Someone "can" use fake CC and buy a LEB that will host CP for a day or two, "can" rent a server for the same purpose, "can" use usenet, Freenet, open proxies or even VPNs, whatever, for the filth, buy botnets and distribute it across it and push through P2P, or even create a fail-safe cloud for that matter, where can we stop all that ? Answer is obvious, shut down the internet.
Same in RL, we need to shut down some neighbourhoods with a high crime rate (or even those with lower crime rate as Tor is used less for P2P than the general Internet), close down the borders to stop drugs, guns, outlaw cash since it's used "95%" for crime, make roadblocks at all crossroads and search every car since ppl "can" use them for criminal purposes, search anyone on the street that looks a little dark or asian, raid houses arrest everyone and ask to prove they are not guilty for something, why not, they do live in a high crime area, arent they ? But as we saw, that is a non-argument, since in their houses "can" be committed crimes and the law-enforcemnt would have trouble getting warrants and do paperwork, they dont move to Beverly Hills (dont rent overpriced servers) so they are criminals...
Of course.
M