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really sad ! Electrical Ups Inquire , please help ..
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really sad ! Electrical Ups Inquire , please help ..

cociucociu Member
edited November 2017 in General

Hello guys ,

recently i have buy a ups for our expansion project , unfortunatly i have spend 1 week in try to see how many batteries is need but nothing clear. For my opinion is came with 30x12v but i am not sure. The documents of the ups is the same what we have find in the webpage. So my question is , anyone from here use this model of ups and can tell me how many batteries is need ? 30 or 40 ?

the model is http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_Reference=APC_MBPN-7SUCJ9_EN&p_EnDocType=User guide&p_File_Id=6592103702&p_File_Name=MBPN-7SUCJ9_R0_EN.pdf

Thanks in advance,
Marius

«13

Comments

  • PieHasBeenEatenPieHasBeenEaten Member, Host Rep

    @cociu Probaly best to contact apc for the exact part number of the replacement batteries. Plus what model do exactly have? 40 50 60 100 130 kva? Just shoot me a pm Ill try to get you sorted out.

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Some times you can use both. We use Santak UPS which take either 16 or 20 12v batteries for a nominal DC voltage of 192 or 240v.

    In the case of the Galaxy 5000 series, it looks like you can have 3 battery configurations with a nominal voltage of 380, 415 or 600v. But since none of those seem to make sense, there is a good chance I'm wrong since that would mean 31.6, 34.6 and 50 batteries respectively.

    It is odd that the specifications do show the battery voltages...

    Thanked by 1William
  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Based on this,

    http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/MGE-Galaxy-5000-Battery-Cabinet-480V/P-G5TBAT

    I suspect the actual battery voltage should be 480v, which would mean 40x12v batteries.

  • @randvegeta said:
    Based on this,

    http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/MGE-Galaxy-5000-Battery-Cabinet-480V/P-G5TBAT

    I suspect the actual battery voltage should be 480v, which would mean 40x12v batteries.

    seems like there is a 400V config too. @cociu please try to not kill yourself nor burn your DC...

  • he will fsck it up again

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    Falzo said: seems like there is a 400V config too

    How do you get 400v? The nominal battery voltages are 12v, so it should be a multiple of 12.

    40 batteries = 480v
    30 batteries = 360v

    it could be 32 batteries, similar to what I have in my 16 battery setup with my SANTAKs, which would be 384v.

    It could also be 34 batteries, for 408v, which would be pretty close to the voltage you get from a 3-phase outlet.

    It certainly seems reasonable that the nominal battery voltage is pretty close to the AC voltage. In my case, where my UPS is single phase, 20x12 = 240v, which is pretty much what we get out of the wall. 3-Phase outputs 400v... But who knows..

    I'm pretty sure 40 is correct if the cabinets they sell are for 480v.

  • @quick said:
    he will fsck it up again

    Eventually, it all gets fscked.

    Thanked by 3quick Clouvider joeri
  • PieNotEvenEaten said: @cociu Probaly best to contact apc for the exact part number of the replacement batteries. Plus what model do exactly have? 40 50 60 100 130 kva? Just shoot me a pm Ill try to get you sorted out.

    is a 80 kva model

  • Hopefully you get it working and give us those 90% codes man

  • bsdguybsdguy Member
    edited November 2017

    From what I see Romania is a 220/230V 50Hz country, so the 3 phase voltage for you is 400V (230 * sqrt(3)).

    As for the batteries they almost certainly (I do not know your exact model) do not need to exactly match 400V (or any other voltage).

    Reason: Larger UPS can be looked at as switching converters which are anyway not voltage but energy based (LC) with output voltages just created as needed.

    As there 3 shelfs ("levels") to store the batteries I guess the correct solution is a number divisable by 3 and simply defined by how many batteries you can place in those 3 shelfs.

    @randvegeta

    Generally speaking, no. While certain manufacturers might indeed have some weird and primitive system that has the voltage directly tied to the sum of the battery voltages, generally the amount of batteries simply tells something about of energy (not voltage) that can be stored. So, more batteries = longer bridging time at a given voltage. And btw. them batteries are typically connected in parallel and not in series (which would add up voltage rather than amperage).

    Technically speaking an (professional) UPS works roughly like this:

    It always and anyway converts the grid voltage down to some lower voltage (typically to 12, 24, 36, or 48 V) which matches the voltage from the batteries (which in the given case probably is 36 V (3 shelfs @ 12 V), so the first stage works pretty much like any other power supply, i.e. it's a switching ac-dc down converter (plus active pfc, etc).

    Next, if the grid (or gen) is online that voltage is stepped up (dc-dc conversion) to the normal output voltage (230V in RO) (and cleaned etc) plus a part of the energy goes to filling the batteries.

    If the grid or gen is not online, then exactly the same thing happens just that instead of the down-converted grid/gen input the batteries are used and stepped up.

    @cociu

    Don't cry like a girl when you need help. You are a pro and so I expect a reasonably professional help request including a proper model and description.

  • bsdguy said: @cociu

    Don't cry like a girl when you need help. You are a pro and so I expect a reasonably professional help request including a proper model and description.

    i do not cry , my problem is i am in a small city , we have here only 2-5 professionals and unfortunatly no one have see this model before , i have try to call to manufacture and i have programated a tehnical inspection in 2 month ... so i try to be more faster .....

  • @cociu said:

    bsdguy said: @cociu

    Don't cry like a girl when you need help. You are a pro and so I expect a reasonably professional help request including a proper model and description.

    i do not cry , my problem is i am in a small city , we have here only 2-5 professionals and unfortunatly no one have see this model before , i have try to call to manufacture and i have programated a tehnical inspection in 2 month ... so i try to be more faster .....

    That's not what I mean. Of course you can and should ask for help - and I did help right away as good as I could.

    What I mean that we even had to ask very basic info like the exact model.

    Now, please go and (or have some of your guys do it) take the measurements of a) 1 battery, and b) the size of one of the shelfs and tell me/us those measures.

  • @randvegeta said:

    Falzo said: seems like there is a 400V config too

    How do you get 400v? The nominal battery voltages are 12v, so it should be a multiple of 12.

    the installation manual shows two different configurations of breakers and stuff for 400V and 480V.
    as @bsdguy already stated above the number of batteries most likely won't relate to that voltage as it needs a switching regulator anyway to create proper AC from DC (and vice-versa) - so the voltages do not need to match like in your math.

    it's more likely that the 80kVA give a better clue or even the measurements like suggested to check how many batteries would fit in there. also I am pretty sure they won't be simply wired all in one row (single point of failure) ;-) speaking of which, there should be quite some wiring available, so maybe that give additional hints...

    again, be aware that those things are perfectly capable of killing someone, reminds of this:

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep
    edited November 2017

    @Falzo and @bsdguy,

    Umm, the DC voltages matter because that's how the UPS can identify how much to charge the batteries.

    A 12v battery is just the nominal voltage. At full charge it's around 13v and when fully discharged it's around 11v. So it matters very much how many batteries are used.

    In my case, where I have a SANTAK UPS, it's 16 or 20 x 12v batteries. The UPS knows the battery configuration based on the voltage it detects.

    So 176-208v = 16 batteries.
    And 220-260v = 20 batteries.

    Using 18 batteries for example will confuse the UPS, making it think either the 16 batteries are always fully charged or 20 batteries always fully discharged.

    And generally speaking, the big UPS do use batteries at these high voltages, and used in series rather than parallel. Presumably, doing it in parallel would require extremely chunky cables due to the increased current.

  • cociucociu Member
    edited November 2017

    the problem here is 2 month to wait for a tehnical guy from apc ... this is unbeleve, and this is not a play game , with the less faill is transforming in a bomb

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Host Rep

    @cociu said:
    the problem here is 2 month to wait for a tehnical guy from apc ... this is unbeleve

    No confidence in yourself or local electrician?

  • cociucociu Member
    edited November 2017

    randvegeta said: No confidence in yourself or local electrician?

    i have a employer electician certified , but the problem is with the ups specs. From what we have calculate is 30 batteryes of 12v. 30 *13.44 is arrownd 400v. We have try to power up the ups and is give error to the battery. So to avoid future problems we are here. The battery is all ok because we have put the same circuit to a 160 kva ups what we have installed yet and is work perfectly.

  • bsdguybsdguy Member
    edited November 2017

    @cociu said:
    the problem here is 2 month to wait for a tehnical guy from apc ... this is unbeleve, and this is not a play game , with the less faill is transforming in a bomb

    Measure of a battery and of a shelf?

    You want a solution and that thing starting to work, right?

    @randvegeta said:
    @Falzo and @bsdguy,

    Umm, the DC voltages matter because that's how the UPS can identify how much to charge the batteries.

    A 12v battery is just the nominal voltage. At full charge it's around 13v and when fully discharged it's around 11v. So it matters very much how many batteries are used.

    In my case, where I have a SANTAK UPS, it's 16 or 20 x 12v batteries. The UPS knows the battery configuration based on the voltage it detects.

    So 176-208v = 16 batteries.
    And 220-260v = 20 batteries.

    Using 18 batteries for example will confuse the UPS, making it think either the 16 batteries are always fully charged or 20 batteries always fully discharged.

    And generally speaking, the big UPS do use batteries at these high voltages, and used in series rather than parallel. Presumably, doing it in parallel would require extremely chunky cables due to the increased current.

    Sorry, no, that's not how this works. Of course a UPS closely monitors, controls, charges, etc. the batteries. But the decisive factor is VA (the product of voltage and charge). That is why there are different models. A 100 kVA model, for instance, simply has 25% more batteries than an 80 kVA model - but the same voltage.

    One might (or not) "add" (put in series) a part of the batteries, say the shelfs, but generally the batteries are in parallel because what one desires is high amperage for a given voltage.

    Another reason is how those controls are designed. You are, at least if you want high efficiency (which is certainly the case with pro ups), pretty much fixed wrt voltage due to the inductors so usually the whole design is based on a fixed voltage, say 12V (or 24, ...) which again is typically quite close to the loading voltage (typ. ca. 13.5 V for 12 V accus).

    And btw. the lowest possible voltage largely depends on the accu type. For some that's 11V, for others it's much lower. No problem for the dc-dc (or in this case dc-ac) converter because the output voltage is anyway depending on and controlled by the duty cycle. So, a pro ups will always generate 230V, no matter whether the batteries (freshly charged) deliver full voltage (e.g. 12 V) or (at the end) just a considerably lower one.

    Thanked by 1Falzo
  • @cociu said:

    randvegeta said: No confidence in yourself or local electrician?

    i have a employer electician certified , but the problem is with the ups specs. From what we have calculate is 30 batteryes of 12v. 30 *13.44 is arrownd 400v. We have try to power up the ups and is give error to the battery. So to avoid future problems we are here. The battery is all ok because we have put the same circuit to a 160 kva ups what we have installed yet and is work perfectly.

    Forget that x batteries times y volt = ca. 400V bullshit. It would be very strange if your ups really worked like that. The difference between an 80 kVA and a 160 kVA ups is only, how much time you can bridge (directly related to charge).

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider
    edited November 2017

    @cociu said:
    the problem here is 2 month to wait for a tehnical guy from apc ... this is unbeleve, and this is not a play game , with the less faill is transforming in a bomb

    Don’t buy 2nd mission-critical kit with no support, and especially not without documentation.

  • Clouvider said: Don’t buy use mission-critical kit with no support.

    you will be surprised , is a new one , also instalation included and f*ck .... 2 month to wait after i wait almost 5 for delivery ?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    So where’s their partner who sold you this ? I’d go bananas if someone did something like that. They’d either end up turning up and getting it done, or the kit would be on the pallet back to where it came from.

  • Clouvider said: So where’s their partner who sold you this ? I’d go bananas if someone did something like that. They’d either end up turning up and getting it done, or the kit would be on the pallet back to where it came from.

    in romania seems to have lost the cooperation with the partner. The ups was delivered from polland. I have call there and was direct me to Italy. So here i am.

  • bsdguybsdguy Member
    edited November 2017

    @Clouvider said:
    So where’s their partner who sold you this ? I’d go bananas if someone did something like that. They’d either end up turning up and getting it done, or the kit would be on the pallet back to where it came from.

    If you end up with an idiot dealer you are fucked from the moment on when you transfer the money.

    As 80 kVA upss aren't frequently bought (by any single customer) even the lever of "I'll never again buy from you!" is of very limited effect. The whole thing gets even much worse if there's only 1 authorized dealer for some stuff (which might well be the case in some areas of Romania).

    @cociu is fucked. He'll either patiently play their shitty game - or - he'll come up with the measurements I asked for and get's his ups to run today.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    This is obvious, I mean if you make such an capital expenditure you should make sure this is specified in the contract. If so, I’d hire an engineer anywhere, including in a different country if needed, and sue them for the money back if they wouldn’t comply.

    That of course in top of making and shaking them and Shari my experience with APC CEO.

  • bsdguybsdguy Member
    edited November 2017

    @cociu said:

    Clouvider said: So where’s their partner who sold you this ? I’d go bananas if someone did something like that. They’d either end up turning up and getting it done, or the kit would be on the pallet back to where it came from.

    in romania seems to have lost the cooperation with the partner. The ups was delivered from polland. I have call there and was direct me to Italy. So here i am.

    I don't get it. I know what I'm talking about, I actually did run a DC in my professional past, and I'm here to help you - even with a friendly smile. Yet for some reason you seem to prefer funny discussions about this or that dealer, poland, italy, and whatnot instead of getting and telling us the simple measurements I asked your for. Weird. Maybe I should apologize, pull out of this, and not disturb the poland, italy, x batteries times 12V = 400V discussions anymore.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Patron Provider

    On that note, I don’t think that would cut health and safety requirements in any EU country, installing low voltage at a place of work, without clear documentation, based on the ‘help from the Internet’ is generally a big no-no, especially if something happens if jot now then in the future. Whoever gives the go ahead can go to jail.

    APC can also do funny business with warranty and subsequent maintainance as the contractor may deny to work on it as unsafe, etc

  • @bsdguy said:

    @cociu said:

    Clouvider said: So where’s their partner who sold you this ? I’d go bananas if someone did something like that. They’d either end up turning up and getting it done, or the kit would be on the pallet back to where it came from.

    in romania seems to have lost the cooperation with the partner. The ups was delivered from polland. I have call there and was direct me to Italy. So here i am.

    I don't get it. I know what I'm talking about, I actually did run a DC in my professional past, and I'm here to help you - even with a friendly smile. Yet for some reason you seem to prefer funny discussions about this or that dealer, poland, italy, and whatnot instead of getting and telling us the simple measurements I asked your for. Weird. Maybe I should apologize, pull out of this, and not disturb the poland, italy, x batteries times 12V = 400V discussions anymore.

    It may take @cociu a few hours to consult with his electrician and to get back to you.

    Thanked by 1iKeyZ
  • bsdguybsdguy Member
    edited November 2017

    @Clouvider said:
    On that note, I don’t think that would cut health and safety requirements in any EU country, installing low voltage at a place of work, without clear documentation, based on the ‘help from the Internet’ is generally a big no-no, especially if something happens if jot now then in the future. Whoever gives the go ahead can go to jail.

    APC can also do funny business with warranty and subsequent maintainance as the contractor may deny to work on it as unsafe, etc

    Well, I'm not under the impression that @cociu has much to count on wrt. apc service.

    As for the legal situation: a) it's low voltage, b) apcs own documents clearly suggest that customer can have his own qualified personal (which a registered electrician certainly is) install those accus, and c) apc doesn't send engineers. Their authorized dealer have some local electrician do the work or have some of their own (low level) technicians come and do it.

    @angstrom said:

    It may take @cociu a few hours to consult with his electrician and to get back to you.

    I know for sure that @cociu is not at all stupid. And I have strong reason to believe that he has people who are easily capable to grab a ruler and to take the dimensional measurements of a "battery" and of a shelf.

  • AnthonySmithAnthonySmith Member, Patron Provider

    @Clouvider said:
    On that note, I don’t think that would cut health and safety requirements in any EU country, installing low voltage at a place of work, without clear documentation, based on the ‘help from the Internet’ is generally a big no-no, especially if something happens if jot now then in the future. Whoever gives the go ahead can go to jail.

    APC can also do funny business with warranty and subsequent maintainance as the contractor may deny to work on it as unsafe, etc

    I pretty much wrote that about 2 minutes after he initially posted this, then I reread what i wrote and thought, fuck it, if I need to explain this he does not care anyway and has money to burn on second-hand mission critical trash, burn a bit more and fly someone in to make up for the foresight he did not have.

    As such I just deleted what I wrote and moved on.

    Thanked by 1Clouvider
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