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VPN and Tor to be blocked in Russia?
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VPN and Tor to be blocked in Russia?

kendidkendid Veteran

Where there's a will to get around this, there's always a way...


The Russian Federation Council has just approved a bill that would outlaw the use of virtual private networks, the Tor anonymity network, anonymous mobile messaging services and internet proxy services, citing concerns about security.

"The host service providers will get about three days time to stop the service providers from providing the illegal service to the banned domains[if] providers fail to meet the specified demands within the period of a month, they will face stringent action. The government can put a ban or block them totally." Many Russian citizens use VPNs and other Internet proxy services to access blocked content by routeing their traffic through servers outside the country.

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Comments

  • tor cannot be blocked easily :)

  • @BecomeWebHost said:
    tor cannot be blocked easily :)

    Are you retarded?

    Thanked by 1rm_
  • Adam1Adam1 Member

    @BecomeWebHost said:
    tor cannot be blocked easily :)

    https://check.torproject.org/exit-addresses

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • nothing can be blocked dude. it's free internet. if tor is blocked one can use private vpn!

  • "If you click the "censored" option, the Tor installer will prompt you to use either a built-in obfuscation protocol and network, or your own list of bridges, additional Tor relays not listed in the main directory, obscuring your traffic even further."

  • The title of this thread is misleading. It seems that the issue is things the government want to block rather than the use of privacy tools as such.

    The Torrentfreak article reports that if VPN and proxy providers "are configured to prevent access to all domains present in Russia’s banned resources list, it appears they can avoid legal issues."

  • NeoonNeoon Community Contributor, Veteran

    @BecomeWebHost said:
    nothing can be blocked dude. it's free internet. if tor is blocked one can use private vpn!

  • Russia is on its way to become China.

  • Quotes Motherboard/Vice... Pfft bloody beginner or plain stupidity. I wipe my ass with most magazines like Vice. Stop using them as sources. Shit creditability.

    Boy you have no idea what can be done.

    Thanked by 2mows netomx
  • jiggawattjiggawatt Member
    edited July 2017

    Ole_Juul said: The Torrentfreak article reports that if VPN and proxy providers "are configured to prevent access to all domains present in Russia’s banned resources list, it appears they can avoid legal issues."

    Indeed - in theory. There was a lot of concern from companies which use VPNs for corporate security, etc, and the legislature crafted this bill with that input in mind.

    But nevertheless - this is censorship and preparation for economic and social turbulence ahead. . .

    Thanked by 1Ole_Juul
  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited July 2017

    Ole_Juul said: The title of this thread is misleading. It seems that the issue is things the government want to block rather than the use of privacy tools as such.

    The Torrentfreak article reports that if VPN and proxy providers "are configured to prevent access to all domains present in Russia’s banned resources list, it appears they can avoid legal issues."

    Except that the whole point why people use those "VPN and proxy providers" is that they allow them to access such domains. And it is silly to expect a VPN provider from abroad to voluntarily implement censorship to block all sites which are censored in Russia from being accessible via its VPN by Russian users -- and even if they do, to expect anyone to keep buying that VPN service. They will not -- hence it is quite correct to expect all major VPN providers to be blocked sooner or later.

    Private VPNs (as in buying a VPS or dedi and then setting up VPN just for yourself) are fine and not getting outlawed for the moment.

    As for Tor, it is very much possible to block Tor, the list of all nodes is public, and bridges even with obfuscation protocols are detectable by signatures (perhaps they don't do a good enough job at hiding/masking themselves?). China has successfully managed to block Tor entirely, there are less than 5000 Tor users in the entire 1.4bn people country.

    Thanked by 1Ole_Juul
  • kendidkendid Veteran

    I'm not pro-Russian by any means -- but I really believe in this instance their intentions are good... There is alot of stuff out there, that could possibly be better if not accessed (i.e. terrorism propaganda, recruiting etc)... (that said, I'm also sure there are also some political motivations as well)

    However, any time freedoms are given up for the sake of "safety/security" (in ANY country), it becomes an issue of contention...

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran
    edited July 2017

    kendid said: I'm not pro-Russian by any mean

    Yeah you're just anti-Internet, anti-freedom and pro-censorship, I see.

    China's GFW must be "good" too, according to you.

  • raynorraynor Member

    There is nothing bad to be pro-Russian, sure ;) Oh, and "freedom" is just junk word nowadays.

  • kendidkendid Veteran

    @rm_ said:

    kendid said: I'm not pro-Russian by any mean

    Yeah you're just anti-Internet, anti-freedom and pro-censorship, I see.

    China's GFW must be "good" too, according to you.

    LOL... nope... truly not pro-Russian,ever since Russia kicked me out of my home in Crimea for the sake of "Crimean freedom"...

    China's GFW is good! - as long as there are loopholes in it!

  • NexusH798NexusH798 Member
    edited July 2017

    what's gonna happen once the government notices you are using VPN or Tor? detention ? fine ?

  • defaultdefault Veteran

    One after the other, countries want to destroy privacy over the Internet, with politicians slowly influencing each other in becoming control freaks. People need to start taking action against their political leaders, or Internet privacy will be completely gone soon.

  • rm_rm_ IPv6 Advocate, Veteran

    NexusH798 said: what's gonna happen once the government notices you are using VPN or Tor? detention ? fine ?

    It is not outlawed for end-users to be using or trying to use those (yet?). No penalties either.

    The law only says that ISPs are forbidden to "provide the means for using" tools of censorship avoidance, such as VPN services or Tor. Which is another way of saying they will have to block those. The specifics of what to block will be provided to them by a government agency, similar to how it now provides lists of website domains and IPs to block.

  • @ansiklopedi said:
    Russia is on its way to become China.

  • kendid said: but I really believe in this instance their intentions are good... There is alot of stuff out there, that could possibly be better if not accessed (i.e. terrorism propaganda, recruiting etc)... (that said, I'm also sure there are also some political motivations as well)

    Something like 25% of RU is Muslim and terrorism was a problem long before this. The reality is that this plunge in oil prices is looking very similar to the plunge in 1985/86. And we all know what happened shortly after 1986.

  • mowsmows Member
    edited July 2017

    The problem here with this law is that they will force providers to ban such services on customer systems. Providers will just do so in their terms. But there is no way to control the use of tor on private lines. Apart from the fact that in germany, for example, there are already many laws that may still come in russia. Data retention for instance.

    Many US-carriers like Cogentgo forbid the use of proxies in their terms of use. So there is a phantom discussion about "freedom" or "the free world" again.

  • EdmondEdmond Member

    @Adam1 said:

    @BecomeWebHost said:
    tor cannot be blocked easily :)

    https://check.torproject.org/exit-addresses

    But your not connecting to the exits directly... It's your PC --> Relay #1 (IP is known however) or Bridge (IP is less known to the public) --> Relay #2 (hidden IP) --> Relay #3 (exit node in some other country..)

    Thanked by 1BecomeWebHost
  • bsdguybsdguy Member

    The russian government merely does what pretty every gov. does in one way or the other. But, of course, Russia being Russia there is lots of noise about censorship etc blabla.

    What that is about is to basically black out certain clearly criminal or dangerous sites. One current example is sites that propagate and support suicide for youngsters. Every halfway healthy government would go against that.

    And please: "Freedom of speech" etc. is not a carte blanche for criminals.

    If anyone has problems understanding that he can try to run a blog that glorifies Hitler or denies the holocaust in a western super-duper-democratic country.
    You can also have a look at the us of a where de facto censorship is quite common now based on "political correctness". All that's need is someone feeling discriminated against and calling you a racist or the like and you'll see very quickly how "free" you are.

    The russian governments intention at least is realistic and targeted at real problems and real criminals.

    As for the technicalities: Of course one can theoretically subvert, circumvent, or avoid pretty much anything. If someone really, really wants to surf to blocked sites, he certainly can find (or build) ways to do so - IF he has the necessary knowledge - which, however, 95+% of the population don't have.

    Also keep in mind that Russia respects other countries and, of course, wants to only block people in Russia (which, like any gov. is their bloody right). Another thing to keep in mind is that people in Russia circumventing the law risk to be caught and end up in court.

    Finally, what's really lost in "freedom"? One can't chat with terrorists, one can't drive teenagers into suicide, one can't plan and discuss assaults ... oh well, 99,9% of the Russians can certainly happily live without that - they loose nothing with that "evil censorship dictatorial russky law!.

    @jiggawattz said:

    kendid said: but I really believe in this instance their intentions are good... There is alot of stuff out there, that could possibly be better if not accessed (i.e. terrorism propaganda, recruiting etc)... (that said, I'm also sure there are also some political motivations as well)

    Something like 25% of RU is Muslim and terrorism was a problem long before this. The reality is that this plunge in oil prices is looking very similar to the plunge in 1985/86. And we all know what happened shortly after 1986.

    Pardon me but that's seriously unbearably stupid. As you seem to have all your news about Russia from the clinton news network (cnn), let me help you to see the reality:

    Russia had pains, yes; it wasn't funny at all to be sanctioned. However, the russian government coped extremely well with the sanctions and - that's a verifiable fact - Russias economy has actually grown. Gas exports, btw. have grown, too.
    The secret sauce was that they started a major replacement program. That lead, among other effects, to major industry segments that were indeed "rusty" since the 90ies to be revived. An excellent example is airplanes. Today Russia has 2 passenger jets of their own (superjet and ms-21) covering the most important segments for Russia, namely 100 - 250 passengers overs distances of 2000 to 5000 kilometers non-stop. Which, btw. translates into billions less to pay to other countries and at the same time into billions coming in through exports (A large mexican airline, for instance, happily buys russian jets).

    Another example is agriculture and food. Before the sanctions and since the 80ies Russia had indeed to import a major part of food and agricultural products. Today, however, Russia is about to become a net exporter in those segments. In some fields (e.g. wheat) they have even overtaken the long standing champion, the us of a.

    Maybe that's why Mr. Ivanow, the former chief of presidential staff grinningly told to TV reporters "Sanctions? Please keep them going! Those sanctions have done what the russian government urgently wanted but failed to do for many years. Keep them on, please!"

    Thanked by 2raynor Ole_Juul
  • rm_ said: As for Tor, it is very much possible to block Tor, the list of all nodes is public, and bridges even with obfuscation protocols are detectable by signatures

    Cat and mouse game as always. Since one or two versions Iran also fails to block Tor by an infraction system on the stream but that probably will get up again.

    Ole_Juul said: The Torrentfreak article reports that if VPN and proxy providers "are configured to prevent access to all domains present in Russia’s banned resources list, it appears they can avoid legal issues."

    This seems to target commercial VPN providers that ignore the censorship, yes, for Tor this point is merely worthless anyway as you cannot really censor inside the network like this.

    As rm said this targets companies only and is not really a "law" in a the civil or penal code; it is similar to a regulation of frequencies for LTE etc. done by a gov agency on a law level, equal to civil for physical persons. It is, i assume, based on the requirement to register a license as ISP in RU, to accept these and follow them.

    jiggawattz said: Something like 25% of RU is Muslim and terrorism was a problem long before this. The reality is that this plunge in oil prices is looking very similar to the plunge in 1985/86. And we all know what happened shortly after 1986.

    The guy climbed on a tank in Moscow to prevent a coup ("and save democracy" that never existed anyway) that would have failed anyway, nowadays someone might climb on a Porsche Cayenne or BMW X5 considering how the picture of MSK changed :')

    But hey, Gorbachev is still alive, can give him another attempt.

    mows said: Many US-carriers like Cogentgo forbid the use of proxies in their terms of use. So there is a phantom discussion about "freedom" or "the free world" again.

    As end-user. Cogent has not even 1% end-users. Cogent does not regulate what you do as BGP/L3 customer with your own network and them as upstream (and cannot, legally, much either).

    mows said: But there is no way to control the use of tor on private lines

    All RU ISPs are regulated by the gov and censorship is implemented at their level forcefully.

    If you ignore it, just like in other countries, the gov turns you off or - Russian style for oligarchs that fail to please - disassembles your company and splits it to ISPs that obey for basically no money as punishment.

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    bsdguy said: If anyone has problems understanding that he can try to run a blog that glorifies Hitler or denies the holocaust in a western super-duper-democratic country. You can also have a look at the us of a where de facto censorship is quite common now based on "political correctness". All that's need is someone feeling discriminated against and calling you a racist or the like and you'll see very quickly how "free" you are.

    Sorry, but this is 100% bullshit. You can run a Holocaust denial site in the US and you won't be bothered (well, at least by the government).

    There is no "de facto censorship" here. I know in your world that Russians are paragons of freedom and the USA is Nazi Germany but that simply is incongruous with reality. I can put up a site criticizing Donald Trump and host it in the USA. Good luck hosting something that criticizes Putin in Russia.

    I mean, the famous hate site Stormfront is hosted in the US and has been for a long time. It both glorifies Hitler and denies the Holocaust. My sister is director for a Holocaust studies group for a public university and we were talking about this not long ago...you can't host Holocaust denial in Germany or Austria but you certainly can in the US.

    On the opposite end of the spectrum, jtf.org (which is extremely racist) is hosted in the US as well...they're anti-Nazi but openly promote nuking Muslim nations. They were kicked off Manhattan TV back in the 80s for their views but their web site has been online and serving up its nauseating forum for decades.

    I can think of several other hate sites that are hosted here...you're just completely wrong.

  • bsdguy said: If anyone has problems understanding that he can try to run a blog that glorifies Hitler or denies the holocaust in a western super-duper-democratic country.

    Nobody will annoy me for this in the US. Not here in Croatia either. The JIDF will rip you apart online and run campaigns against your person/family/company but this is just them, as private organisation much like their opponents on the right spectrum.

    Holocaust denial is only a crime in a few EU countries and Israel plus very, VERY few outside. Generally this is covered by either hate speech, terrorism or other laws re-used (a hardcore nazi site will not have the required owner disclosure in like Spain...).

    Now, if my employer fires me for running a pro-hitler-nazi blog is - especially with the US at will employment - an entirely other story.

    You could see this as somewhat "political correctness" and self censorship, but hey, if you are rich it does not apply so philosophically this is not correct.

    You can host such a site in Russia, legal, and this is done right this moment - RUNET is full of ultra left to ultra right wing things, as long as you do not bother the CURRENT political class you are just a small light anyway.

    raindog308 said: On the opposite end of the spectrum, jtf.org (which is extremely racist) is hosted in the US as well...they're anti-Nazi but openly promote nuking Muslim nations

    It should be noted that the extreme right jewish spectrum - which does have somewhat gov % in Israel, unlike the US not on the military side however which is traditionally left - is also not able to do this in Israel, while they COULD by the basics with a good lawyer host this in vast parts of Europe.

    The holocaust denial laws, where existing, generally are also not more strict in penalty but just more specific than local hate speech laws (eg. France) to ease investigation and court processing.

  • bsdguybsdguy Member

    @raindog308

    I have shocking news for you: the western world isn't just the us of a!

    Try, for instance, what I spoke about in european countries; in most of them you'll be prosecuted faster than you can say "freedom of speech". In particular, denying or even just doubting the official number (6 mio) is a major crime and quite some european countries even have special laws just for that.

    As for the us of a, sorry, I'm spending quite some time following the "news" there and seeing people prosecuted, smeared, insulted, just because someone dared to utter his "politically incorrect" opinion.

    That said, 1 reason that makes me laugh all over and biting the carpet is how bloodily stupid you us-americans de facto all but gave up what once really was a very considerable liberty to say what you want - which, and understandably so, many others envied - for "political correctness". Just look at the reality: Nowadays you must be about as careful as in a diktatura about what you say and how you say it. And the reason for that is that the us of a largely is (has become) a diktatura of political correctness and its probably most extreme form, the snowflakes.

    Do yourself a favour and watch some George Carlin on youtube and you'll see what I mean if you haven't yet got it by simply watching your utterly ridiculous "news" shows (I frequently watch them - as comedy. Seriously).

  • raindog308raindog308 Administrator, Veteran

    bsdguy said: I have shocking news for you: the western world isn't just the us of a!

    Right, but you specifically talking about the USA, so...? "If anyone has problems understanding that he can try to run a blog that glorifies Hitler or denies the holocaust in a western super-duper-democratic country. You can also have a look at the us of a where de facto censorship is quite common now based on "political correctness". "

    bsdguy said: That said, 1 reason that makes me laugh all over and biting the carpet is how bloodily stupid you us-americans de facto all but gave up what once really was a very considerable liberty to say what you want - which, and understandably so, many others envied - for "political correctness".

    I understand where you're going...e.g., some governments have "hate speech" laws and that nonsense.

    But I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example where someone put up some kind of political statement (however extreme) and the US government forced someone to take it off US servers. I provided several examples of extreme politics that you can surf to (not that I'd recommend doing so).

    Culturally, yeah, there's a lot of that...lots of social justice warriors who see everything as racist or homophobic or whatever and will flood twitter with their fist-pumping outrage (while balancing a game controller on their lap). Freedom sucks because it lets those people talk, too. But as to actual censorship...I don't see it and haven't in 40+ years.

    There's a lot wrong with the USA, but freedom to bitch is still alive!

    bsdguy said: Do yourself a favour and watch some George Carlin on youtube and you'll see what I mean if you haven't yet got it by simply watching your utterly ridiculous "news" shows (I frequently watch them - as comedy. Seriously).

    Off topic, but...saw him live twice in the 80s before he died. The man could not carry an evening. He's awesome in 10-minute doses and I had a couple of his comedy albums (back when such things were still made) and there were hilarious skits. Heck, even his impromptu bit on the Aristocrats movie was gold. But over the course of a couple hours, he becomes repetitive and stream-of-consciousness. Both times I saw him, people were in tears laughing for the first half hour, but walking out early in the last half hour...still, RIP George.

    William said: It should be noted that the extreme right jewish spectrum - which does have somewhat gov % in Israel, unlike the US not on the military side however which is traditionally left - is also not able to do this in Israel, while they COULD by the basics with a good lawyer host this in vast parts of Europe.

    Even more off topic, but...yeah, wWe're talking about Kahanists, obviously. I think the Israeli government is afraid of that movement resurfacing and has done everything possible to get its members banned from entry (as the JTF owner, the infamous Victor Vancier, is) or marginalized. While it's hard for me to say that's a bad thing (really, their views are awful), the cynic in me suspects it's more about Israeli politicians not wanting to deal with popular rivals. In his day, Kahane commanded a sizable movement.

  • WilliamWilliam Member
    edited July 2017

    bsdguy said: Try, for instance, what I spoke about in european countries; in most of them you'll be prosecuted faster than you can say "freedom of speech". In particular, denying or even just doubting the official number (6 mio) is a major crime and quite some european countries even have special laws just for that.

    You seem to like numbers.

    Europe - ~30 countries depending on definition.

    European countries with Holocaust specific denial laws - 12 (10 + Germany and Austria). Not all include numbers and similar in these either.

    Around 1/3rd have specific laws only, this is higher than world average but not much and i want to note the clear issues you have here - Europe is 3/4th democratic (by western model), a democracy generally needs laws, Africa (3/4th authoritarian) does not need laws for such things.

    The other bias is economic - Africa or Asia have way other problems.

    The last is cultural - Nobody in China cares, same as nobody in Croatia will care much if you deny Japanese war crimes/genocide in China.

    bsdguy said: As for the us of a, sorry, I'm spending quite some time following the "news" there and seeing people prosecuted, smeared, insulted, just because someone dared to utter his "politically incorrect" opinion.

    Freedom of speech costs money now, basically.

    If you have money you can pretty much have any, ANY, opinion in the US - if you rely on a job that is not aligned or ignorant (or rely on income someone who does not like your opinion/you can influence, basically anything not cash at bank).

    Legally, you do not go to jail and do not get sentenced, thus it is, well, legal.

    This is capitalism/market economy paired with near absolute freedom of speech showing as people generally avoiding the gov/law and trying to influence as group or directly - overall an expected outcome and somewhat desired for the gov. If they use the law you need again money for lawyers which costs but is a system problem, not this one direct.

    raindog308 said: There's a lot wrong with the USA, but freedom to bitch is still alive!

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