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The E7-4870 (ark.intel.com/products/53579) is apparently Nehelem though it says Westmere EX on the Ark page, hmm. I'm not sure how to interpret the benchmarks. This is all kind of theoretical though, I'm not going to buy a box like that ;-).
How does this look? https://www.dts-net.com/whmcs/cart.php?a=confproduct&i=2
The setup fee is a nuisance but 5 amps of power at $40/month (1U, 10 mbps) is hard to beat. 10TB at 100mbps is $10 extra which seems more tolerable than 10mbps. Unfortunately they don't list gigabit without much more transit ($$$). With that much power I could park my existing Opteron boatanchor there with zero new hardware expenditure til I can afford better gear. Mainly I'd want to get some more hdd's though.
In a cheap colo place like that, is it generally ok to get several servers and expect them to be in the same rack, with own cabling between them?
Such an amazing projection there. You just told Lionel Messi to read about football.
Looks like you get your "education" from the telly. Since this is your first strike, I will enlighten you a tad.
Monopoly doesn't mean "a single seller" in general. Monopoly means "it is impossible to get more than one seller".
For an example of "natural monopoly", suppose there exists only a single uranium mine. Since there isn't a second one, it is impossible to get more than one sellers in the uranium market -> monopoly.
Another way to have a monopoly, is by legal means. In the Western world, this not done much by outright bans of entry (although this was common in older times). Now it happens mainly by making the cost of entry for new players prohibiting by means of targeted "regulations" that favor the existing players. This guarantees an absence of entry for up to a specific artificial profit margin, effectively making an oligopoly or monopoly until (if ever) the profit margin gets so huge that the profit potential actually makes entry possible.
There is no "free market monopoly", simply because due to the wonders of capitalism, the free capital that is constantly moving around for profit vastly out-scales any market. To place it in simple terms, once Amazon tries to increase its profit margin too much, outside capital will flow into the market to compete because profits (yay!). We have seen this again and again and again across every industry, we aren't discovering the new Indies here.
As I said, you are just bitching about not being able to compete and wanting to be subsidized. The only problem is that you try to justify your bitching as ethical, while it is the exact opposite.
Monopoly isn't the right term but I think the issue is more like dumping. There are in fact anti-dumping laws in most countries. It's also not clear whether those EU interconnects that the big operators use are available to smaller ones. If they're not, that is somewhat monopolistic.
Time for another gapper threa...wait, where's gapper?!
I may have used the term incorrectly. But you are missing the point. I'm not saying Amazon sized companies would be affected by this. I'm talking about the small timers who may have the ability to rise.
You are looking at this from a specific point of view. And that view is only concerning the big corporations.
Please do let me know how a small player can compete against the big guys in this system which may have the potential to actually offer a greater value to the end customers.
A very simple example here how this can negatively affect people: Around 20 years ago, big supermarket chains started to take over the market here in Turkey. Before then there were a lot of small time shops around. The big chains have specific opening and closing times. They open at 9 AM and close at 10 PM. The old small shops were mostly open from 6 AM till 2 AM. There were even shops that were open 24/7. So people were able to get their stuff any time they want. Now that the bigger chains have made the life difficult for the small timers and they got closed down and me as an end user is not able to buy groceries after 10 PM now.
I'm not really sure why you are trying to make this a personal thing. People are capable of thinking about stuff that doesn't concern themselves directly, as well.
Try to discuss stuff around the ideas, not the people. Arrogance won't gain you anything.
Fyi DTS quoted me $60/mo for 5TB or 10TB (not sure which) on a 1gbps port. I think I'd stay with 100mbps at $50/month. It's not that often that I'd care about the difference.
You should be able to find better deals. Check Atlanta providers. I think power cost in Atlanta is one of the lowest in the US and Atlanta is well connected.
I'd also concentrate on colo'ing a rack server instead of a desktop computer since servers would have the IPMI interface which would save you in bad times.
There are also many more other concerns about colocation. It's not as simple as dedicated server lease where the seller is responsible for the HW failures.
Of course, I'm mostly talking about stuff where maintaining a good uptime is important.
You should also check with the remote hands rates since they can add up being much more expensive than the monthly cost.
We europeans have embarrassingly slept over processor development. There is painfully little here. Pretty all major architectures come from across the ocean (They might be produced in asia but the IP is us of a).
So, I think, we have played our advantages to at least keep pace and actually achieved to have a better situation here in terms of networks and IXs. We are much more people, and we have better infrastructure (think e.g. "railway" which actually is one of the major right of way providers).
And probably we had some luck, too, like the right guys with the right mind at the right place and so e.g. DeCix came into existence and grew to be the biggest of all.
It wasn't always like that. I remember the days when MAE-East was the IX and the whole of europe had nothing worth mentioning compared to that.
Capital, on the other hand (as it came up) is less easy to get and less cheap than across the ocean.
Probably THE killer for us of a IT was the very dirty games of the us-americans which were uncovered i.a. by Snowden. I'm pretty convinced that that will be a major advantage for europe and others as no-fucking-body in his right mind would trust the us-americans, particularly not with data.
I welcome it warmly, btw, that increasingly many laws in europe expressly forbid to have our data in the usa. And I know many companies who, while not making noise about it, profoundly distrust the us-americans.
I also just love it when Russia pushes around the arrogant large us corps like google and demands and enforces that in Russia russian laws are observed.
Thanks. I like San Jose because it's much nearer to me, not exactly close by but I could drive the servers there instead of shipping. And the power cost from those guys seems unbeatable. And I see I can get some hopefully compatible CPUs for my AMD server super cheap on ebay now, which makes it a lot more viable. I'll keep looking at WHT though.
It's for personal use so I won't be too put out by downtime. If I have a couple of alternate boot devices (USB flash drive, internal disk) then I should be able to reboot from ipmi one way or the other in most situations, I hope? Then I could drive to the DC (1.5 hours) to fix stuff (work schedule permitting) if it was something too complicated for remote hands. Yes I'll ask their remote hands cost, thanks for bringing that up.
23media.de offers the following:
CPU: Intel® Xeon® X3440 @ 2.53GHz
RAM: 16GB Memory
Raid Controller: Adaptec 6405-E incl. 128MB Cache
Uplink: 1000Mbit incl. 250Mbit Trafficflat
4x 1TB HDD or 2x 240GB SSD -> per month only 39,00 Euro
Have you looked at worldstream yet? 50TB included in their default package, 1gbit port at 10 euro/month
Thanks, I checked with them now but they don't allow media streaming on metered plans. They only allow on unmetered plans.
Thanks, I will check with them.
That's like complaining car companies charge too little because it would be impossible to for a man in his garage to build a car, sell it and make any reasonable living off of it.
Automation, and increased productivity in manufacturing have been replacing jobs for over a century. Those affected need to become more productive in order to compete, or they are doomed to fail. The hosting industry is no different. There is no reason to 'protect' the small timer.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with your example of not being able to shop after 10PM. If there is enough demand for shopping after 10PM, then business would fill that niche and operate after 10! Otherwise, you can't expect a shop to stay open after 10 just to serve you. If you're saying there are plenty of customers willing/able to shop after 10 to any profitable degree, hey you've identified a niche and can try and carve out a living for yourself.
I don't see a downside for the consumer.
You are asking for 1Gbit to be available but only pay for 1/10 of the capacity (30TB). If you only ask for 30TB, a reasonable guarantee of bandwidth would be 100Mbit. If they provide 100Mbit, it's not oversold at all.
Imagine there are 10 servers, each with 30TB data transfer, sharing a 1Gbit line. Each server can use the full 1Gbit if they need, and each server can use the full 30TB allowance.
If you want to have 500Mbit guaranteed, then the provider must buy 5Gbit of capacity.
It is unreasonable to expect guaranteed bandwidth of near 1Gbit, if you're only paying for 30TB of data transfer. So.. up your budget and you might get something closer to what you're looking for.
Well, it could be guaranteed. Up to the core switch.
Speak for yourself. We have our own infra and don't resell and I'm fairly sure there are a few other providers here that have their own infra too. Of course we all have providers of sorts, but that's true of Hetzner and OVH too. It is after all the INTER(connected)NET(work).
I've given you one example how capitalist products (i.e: big market chains) can actually hurt the value the end users get. The end users were able to get a feature that the bigger chains are not supplying. I'm not sure how hard to see that and getting confused about this. One small shop was able to offer that after 10 PM service. Do you think there was no demand and they were just hanging out there for extra 4 hours?
The demand that was needed for one shop to keep itself open was there. It was getting enough customers to have itself open till 4 AM. There is no enough demand for a big chains scale to do that since they have to do it in all their branches and hire hundreds of extra people.
You also only think of the end product, not the actual complete service aspect.
You are sweet.
Do you own the physical building your equipment is located in? Do you directly own all the fiber connections? Do you own and maintain the cooling equipment, power equipment and generators? If not then you are obviously renting/leasing/purchasing access to these things through another larger provider. The fiber you end up using if you do pay for the connections your self is provided most likely by the local telephone company or another large conglomerate that owns the fiber, unless you pulled all your own fiber?
In other words while you may own your cage, cabinets, networking equipment and servers you are still at the mercy of your data center, upstream provider, fiber carrier and power provider which are all likely large corporations which likely also own a monopoly for a lot of those things listed and set their costs. If you don't have a specific long-term contract with these providers then they can technically change the costs of these things at any time. In fact I have seen plenty of providers run out of business because their long-term contract expired and then they couldn't afford their providers raised prices and ended up having to shut down services because they couldn't afford to pay.
What I believe @Serverian is getting at is when you have larger corporations like OVH, Leaseweb and Hetzner who truly own their own infrastructure and all of those above listed aspects of their network, they have the ability to set their own prices and price other competitors out of the market. So the bottom line is people can't expect small providers to be able to compete at the same level and therefore provide the same services at the same costs as there is no profit in it when trying to compete with other large corporations. Especially those corporations who are willing to take a loss and lower prices unrealistically just to push their competition out of business. Even if the small guy has better support and possibly even a better product you end up with the end user passing it up just for a cheaper monthly bill. As such, how is a small business to compete against that?
my 2 cents.
Cheers!
Ah @TheLinuxBug, one of the few treasures of LET who makes it still tolerable.
Hello @TheLinuxBug,
Yes.
Yes.
Not all no. But that's really beside the point. No matter how big Hetzner and OVH are, they too must pay at least SOME upstream providers. There is no such thing as a monopoly hosting company because the internet is as it sounds, a network of interconnected networks. All industries in some way depends on another, one way or another.
But I did caveat this in my previous post. But we do not lease rack space, building space, cooling or power equipment. And I am fairly sure there are a couple other providers on LET who have the same. @Cociu comes to mind (correct me if I'm wrong).
This is true for all companies, not just small timers (like us). HE.net, Cogent, PCCW, or whatever upstream you use can charge whatever they want once the contract comes to an end. The electricity company can also raise their prices. Employees can quit. And if you don't own the physical space, your landlord can up the rent. Now in theory we can protect against ALL of these things except the for bandwidth costs. But since there is no 1 company that control the internet, I also don't see it happening that a situation would arrive where reasonably priced connectivity would be inaccessible.
This is just an exception due to you doing this in countries like Romania and Lithuania where the power, property and work force is cheap. You cannot do that in most of the other countries. This is just a rare advantage and not universal. You cannot do that in western European countries for example.
Big corporations are bending the market for themselves and are eliminating the luck of small time providers getting bigger or even entering the market.
This is of course no different than any other industry except maybe software development. Small timers will always face this due to them not having the enough capital to offer an alternative.
And what I'm saying is that this situation MAY NOT always end up being better for the end user.
The entry barrier for providing some software for the masses is astronomically less than providing hosting for the masses. And this is a very good thing as everybody can see you can find many alternative software for what you want to achieve. If it was like hosting then you'd end up only using software that the big corporations made.
We do not have any operations in Romania. We do in Lithuania and indeed, property is cheap but actually we started in, and are primarily based in Hong Kong. Our LT business does only a small fraction of our HK business.
Even in HK, I would consider us a small business, and as for the cost of property, I can think of no market more expensive. And yet, it is still feasible. So I still don't follow you.
Look, I'm not saying a Monopoly is good. But you have not described or provided any examples of a Monopoly. You have described a situation whereby small providers may find it difficult to compete because they dont have the volume to make a sufficient profit if they charge the same or similar rate as the big boys. You think I have ignored the 'customer service' factor out of the equation, but I think your logic ignores this. You can always compete and provide a differentiated service to your competitors through customer service or other service quality factors. It's not all about price. If you plan to compete only on price, then you will always have a disadvantage compared to the larger providers. If you're small, you need a niche. In the case of your supermarket example, that niche would be shoppers who want to buy stuff after 10pm. In the hosting market, it may be better customer service.
Having intense competition also forces people to be more efficient. Look at how quickly automation is being introduced to every level of the hosting industry. All providers will eventually need to adapt or they WILL be left behind. If you happen to be the one left behind, it will suck, and feel awful. But for consumers, this is generally a good thing. Think about how farming industry has benefited in terms of productivity. Food prices are incredibly cheap and the yield per acre just seems to keep growing. Similarly, machinery has meant that crops can be harvested faster and with fewer men. This is terrible for any farm hands that may have been made redundant and left without a job, but that's how it works... Overall, I think it's good for society. But as with any industry, there will be some winners and some losers.
I know of at least 4 providers who have done this with relative ease in the UK. Property in Western Europe is by no means un-affordable. Not to say that it's easy. Any business requires some degree of risk.
I also wanted to point out, that even if property in Lithuania and Romania are cheap, it doesnt make everything else cheap. Airconditioners, Racks, Servers, UPS, Switches, and most equipment actually, seem to be even more expensive in Eastern Europe than in Western Europe given the demand is relatively low. This is true for both new and second hand equipment, and shipping 2nd hand equipment (which is much cheaper in Western Europe) comes at relatively high delivery cost.
As for labour, it is true that labour is generally cheaper in Easter Europe compared to Western Europe, but the more educated and skilled the worker, the closer to Western European wages you get. Good IT people in Lithuania are not easy to find, and they are not cheap. If they were good, you need to pay good wages to entice them to stay, or they would just flock to Western Europe for a better pay. The differential now is basically the difference in living cost. I.e if it cost 1,000 EUR /month MORE to live in London, then the salary in Lithuania may be around 1k less for the same person.
You are missing one very important aspect here. In your example of "customer service" If the market goes like this, i.e: big corporations keeps eliminating all the small time providers, then those providers who are providing good "customer service" will cease to exist eventually and then you'll end up with something worse as an end user like my example of no grocery shopping after 10 PM.
You keep talking about niches but nothing is preventing big corporations entering those niches when the market of those niches become plausible for them. Think about organic food industry. It was a niche for small timers at first, then big corporations like Whole Foods dominated that niche as well.
Maybe you and I will have no problems putting bread on our tables until the end of our business careers since it's not happening that fast but after a generation or two I'm pretty sure things will change like your farm industry example.
The illusion of "free market" is blinding people in this age. There is no free market in most of the industries. Banks or corporations holding the capital are bending any market they are interested in as they want and they don't care if the end user is getting a better value.
My few cents.
OVH as standard offered 32GB Ram + 2xHDD in SWRaid. So, there been win-win offer in reliable price. In my opinion it was main reason why they become great.
For example, SoftLayer have great network, but they as standard offer 2GB Ram in cheapest servers. So, you can use their server for "about me" site with html files. What (without comparing price) is just funny offer in compare to OVH or Hetzner.
Some of US providers, such ServerMania.com created own offer in same way and in the same way they will grow.
So is a 2GB server only good for hosting html files now?
Hardware wasn't that cheaper than software before this WordPress generation.
Check out http://xirvik.com/servers . The "Dolphin" server is slightly out of your budget with 66$.
Ive had one with them for almost a year and i never had a problem pushing 1gbit/s in both directions at the same time.
Honestly anything less than 4GB KVM for my ZNC and i'm going to lag hard.
Francisco
Umm.. if the niche is providing a 'better service quality', and the big companies enter those niches, then how is that bad for consumers?
In you example of the supermarkets closing down local shops and now prevent you from buying stuff after 10pm... if the supermarkets were then open 24/7 because they figured it just good business, how is the consumer harmed?
There is always a niche that can be filled. And if all niches are fulfilled by the big players, then it means the product is perfect. If it's not perfect, that's your niche.
If I may, without any interest in opening a political discussion here, chime in for a moment. It's not the scientifically correct explanation but damn good enough and empirically observable:
With capitalism capital, money, is the ultimate measure about which everything turns - not people, neither as customers nor as employees.
And dealing properly with customers and treating them well is just one function that may or may not be significant.
It's not about owning all fibers, generators, etc. - it's about being a provider to serve clients (and maybe employ some people) and then, along the way earn some money,too - vs - investing money in a money making black box that just so happens to be in the provider business.
How much of the needed elements you own yourself (DC, fibers, generators,...) is only important in defining where in the chain your are positioned and how much you can earn.
Reason: Each element incurs costs, usually incl. fin. costs, too, and a margin. If you are a bottom dwelling VPS provider, say someone with a couple dedis, all those costs, capital costs and margin end up on your turf and you pay all of it. If, on the other hand, you are higher up in the chain and say, own your building, the racks, router, and switches, and are big enough to have at least some 0-cost peering, you don't pay many of the costs but rather pass them down the chain, and even make a margin on each.
The potential killer is a connected problem: Acceptable market prices. That leads to the bottom dwelling providers being at the abyss all the time because the bigger players higher up the chain can afford to drive down prices; for them that may mean letting go one or two of their multiple margin blocks, say server machine mark up and part of traffic mark-up - the bottom-swelling provider, however, may not play that game or only on very small scale.
So, summary, to be cheaper than hetzner is impossible for the vast majority of players because hetzner is the "nightmare" in not only being very big but also having "being cheap" as their strategy. Plus they are internet-geographically in a sweet spot with 500+ mio people within 50 ms or so reach, plus but a hop away from AmsIX and London and Paris IX.