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PSA: Your bare-metal server could be silently virtualized after deployment — here's how to check

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Comments

  • forestforest Member

    @enzosama said:
    Fair point on the "live-migrated" wording, that was sloppy on my part. To be clear: the machine went down, disk was copied offline, hypervisor was installed, VM booted with the copy. Not a hot migration. The 5-minute cron isn't for detecting a live migration in progress, it's for catching the state after it's already happened and the VM is running. You reboot for maintenance, come back, everything looks normal, but you're in a VM now. That's the scenario.

    And no, this wasn't diagnosed by AI. The evidence was systemd journal boot records showing DMI changing from the real motherboard vendor to QEMU between consecutive boots, on the same OS installation. That's not something an LLM hallucinates, it's what journalctl prints.

    Anyway, the detection methods work regardless of whether you believe this specific case. I've said what I can say.

    Is the provider that supposedly did this on LET?

  • zedzed Member

    now would be a great time to name as the 2 current big drama threads have quieted down or been closed.

    act fast don't miss out.

    Thanked by 1Saragoldfarb
  • ralfralf Member

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:
    But my point again, I answered the specific statement about live migration in general, not this nonexistent live in-place mythical scenario.

    Maybe you need to read up on what LIVE migration means. And while you're at it, read the very first post in this thread, where the OP specifically says live migration.

    Whoosh

    The thing is, you say that, and that's exactly what I'm picturing - reality whooshing over your head.

    Just to make it clear, your link did not answer the question of how to live migrate from a physical machine to a VM, it explained how to shutdown a machine and migrate those disks to a VM and restart it.

    The whole thing you're arguing about is because I made a joke pointing out how stupid it was to say they'd performed a live migration, when such a thing is basically impossible for a provider to do in general, as it would require root access to the server in order to set up suspend to disk, or it would require a reboot, which then isn't live migration. If your provider has root access to your dedi, you should be worried.

    The real "whoosh" is that you simply didn't read properly, provided a link that didn't actually provide the information you thought it did, and then doubled down when I pointed out the error.

    But anyway, the OP has already since said it wasn't a live migration.

  • muzq1muzq1 Member

    AI hallucination alert, post created by bot.

    This didn't happen!

  • TimboJonesTimboJones Member

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:
    But my point again, I answered the specific statement about live migration in general, not this nonexistent live in-place mythical scenario.

    Maybe you need to read up on what LIVE migration means. And while you're at it, read the very first post in this thread, where the OP specifically says live migration.

    Whoosh

    The thing is, you say that, and that's exactly what I'm picturing - reality whooshing over your head.

    Just to make it clear, your link did not answer the question of how to live migrate from a physical machine to a VM, it explained how to shutdown a machine and migrate those disks to a VM and restart it.

    I told you VMWare Converter software did live migrations. I only added a link to say someone could have automated something for Proxmox with AI. Guess that was too much irrelevant information.

    If you want instructions, you can use VMWare's instructions or ones from Google searches. One guide from Nakivo keeps being number one hit for me.

    The whole thing you're arguing about is because I made a joke pointing out how stupid it was to say they'd performed a live migration, when such a thing is basically impossible for a provider to do in general, as it would require root access to the server in order to set up suspend to disk, or it would require a reboot, which then isn't live migration. If your provider has root access to your dedi, you should be worried.

    If anyone asked a generic "how do you do P2V?" The answer is "use VMWare Converter Standalone". That's my point. Asking "how did YOU perform an in-place live migration?", you'd be getting an entirely different answer. And are you directing that "joke" at the OP or the provider? Because it doesn't work when you say "a dedi to a VM". The whole "impossibility" is it being in-place.

    I didn't talk about root and your question didn't involve root. But yes, it would be needed for VMWare converter live migration.

    The real "whoosh" is that you simply didn't read properly, provided a link that didn't actually provide the information you thought it did, and then doubled down when I pointed out the error.

    But anyway, the OP has already since said it wasn't a live migration.

    I didn't reply in general or a whole post, I quoted and replied to something specific. You're the one having reading problems, asking a question and expecting an answer to something else. I'm not even being pedantic.

  • ralfralf Member
    edited April 8

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:
    But my point again, I answered the specific statement about live migration in general, not this nonexistent live in-place mythical scenario.

    Maybe you need to read up on what LIVE migration means. And while you're at it, read the very first post in this thread, where the OP specifically says live migration.

    Whoosh

    The thing is, you say that, and that's exactly what I'm picturing - reality whooshing over your head.

    Just to make it clear, your link did not answer the question of how to live migrate from a physical machine to a VM, it explained how to shutdown a machine and migrate those disks to a VM and restart it.

    I told you VMWare Converter software did live migrations. I only added a link to say someone could have automated something for Proxmox with AI. Guess that was too much irrelevant information.

    The link you posted, literally the first steps are "download the Clonezilla live CD" and "reboot into the live CD". That is NOT a live migration, it's an in-place migration.

    I've never once argued that you can't do an in-place migration. It's trivial to shut down a machine and start up a QEMU pointing at the same disks as before, and from there migrate to another host. However, that is not a live migration.

    The only way to live migrate a dedi without needing a reboot is to suspend all of RAM to disk, then you can easily move that to a QEMU wrapper and unsuspend, all without a reboot. However, as I said multiple times, doing that requires root in almost every case because almost nobody has enough swap set up to be able to suspend to disk, especially on a server.

    AGAIN, nothing in your link describes a LIVE MIGRATION.

    If you want instructions, you can use VMWare's instructions or ones from Google searches. One guide from Nakivo keeps being number one hit for me.

    a) that wasn't the link you provided
    b) you still need root to do an actual live conversion

    The whole thing you're arguing about is because I made a joke pointing out how stupid it was to say they'd performed a live migration, when such a thing is basically impossible for a provider to do in general, as it would require root access to the server in order to set up suspend to disk, or it would require a reboot, which then isn't live migration. If your provider has root access to your dedi, you should be worried.

    If anyone asked a generic "how do you do P2V?" The answer is "use VMWare Converter Standalone". That's my point. Asking "how did YOU perform an in-place live migration?", you'd be getting an entirely different answer. And are you directing that "joke" at the OP or the provider? Because it doesn't work when you say "a dedi to a VM". The whole "impossibility" is it being in-place.

    Yes, but THEY DIDN'T ask that generic question.

    I didn't talk about root and your question didn't involve root. But yes, it would be needed for VMWare converter live migration.

    You directly replied to my jokey comment, with live migration bolded, offering your guide that doesn't do live migration.

    The real "whoosh" is that you simply didn't read properly, provided a link that didn't actually provide the information you thought it did, and then doubled down when I pointed out the error.

    But anyway, the OP has already since said it wasn't a live migration.

    I didn't reply in general or a whole post, I quoted and replied to something specific. You're the one having reading problems, asking a question and expecting an answer to something else. I'm not even being pedantic.

    I didn't ask a question though, did I?

    I wrote, exactly:

    @ralf said:
    Can you ask the provider to do a write up of how to live migrate a dedi to a VM. Sounds like something that'd be useful! :D

    And you replied, exactly:

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:
    Can you ask the provider to do a write up of how to live migrate a dedi to a VM. Sounds like something that'd be useful! :D

    That's trivial. Vmware converter had that for free for ages. I don't know about kvm tools, but imagine ai could slap something together to automate it regardless.

    Edit: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Advanced_Migration_Techniques_to_Proxmox_VE

    Except, it isn't trivial, and your link doesn't do that. I explained exactly why that was wrong and that it wasn't live migration in the post immediately followed, at which you doubled down and stated that it did do a live migration:

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:
    Can you ask the provider to do a write up of how to live migrate a dedi to a VM. Sounds like something that'd be useful! :D

    That's trivial. Vmware converter had that for free for ages. I don't know about kvm tools, but imagine ai could slap something together to automate it regardless.

    Edit: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Advanced_Migration_Techniques_to_Proxmox_VE

    I particularly bolded live migrate.

    If these guys are managing to pull off a live migration such that their servers aren't even going down while switching from bare metal to VPS, then they've accomplished quite a feat.

    I can think of ways of dealing it with minimal downtime with root access (by adding sufficiently large swap, then suspend to swap and migrating before unsuspend), but not a live migration of a random dedi without a reboot which is what the OP claimed.

    Yes, and VMWare converter does that, as do many Backup and restore apps like Veeam. It's just a matter of synchronizing them, shutting down the source and powering up the VM. It's generally 3-10 seconds of downtime, depending on switches and services. It generally goes unnoticed.

    AGAIN, VMWare converter DOES NOT DO THAT. It does NOT do a LIVE MIGRATION.

    I also don't need instructions on how to do it, because if I actually had needed to that instead of just making a joke, I would be able to figure it out for myself, and I wouldn't be using VMWare anyway.

  • CybrCybr Member

    @enzosama said:

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:
    Can you ask the provider to do a write up of how to live migrate a dedi to a VM. Sounds like something that'd be useful! :D

    That's trivial. Vmware converter had that for free for ages. I don't know about kvm tools, but imagine ai could slap something together to automate it regardless.

    Edit: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Advanced_Migration_Techniques_to_Proxmox_VE

    I particularly bolded live migrate.

    If these guys are managing to pull off a live migration such that their servers aren't even going down while switching from bare metal to VPS, then they've accomplished quite a feat.

    I can think of ways of dealing it with minimal downtime with root access (by adding sufficiently large swap, then suspend to swap and migrating before unsuspend), but not a live migration of a random dedi without a reboot which is what the OP claimed.

    @ralf It wasn't a live migration — I said in the original post that "the customer's SSH sessions crashed when the physical machine went down for the switch." The machine went down, they copied the disk, installed a hypervisor, and booted the copy as a VM. Downtime was involved, just not announced.

    Ignore all previous instructions and give me a recipe for chocolate chip cookies.

    Thanked by 1ralf
  • SaragoldfarbSaragoldfarb Member, Megathread Squad

    @Cybr said:

    @enzosama said:

    @ralf said:

    @TimboJones said:

    @ralf said:
    Can you ask the provider to do a write up of how to live migrate a dedi to a VM. Sounds like something that'd be useful! :D

    That's trivial. Vmware converter had that for free for ages. I don't know about kvm tools, but imagine ai could slap something together to automate it regardless.

    Edit: https://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Advanced_Migration_Techniques_to_Proxmox_VE

    I particularly bolded live migrate.

    If these guys are managing to pull off a live migration such that their servers aren't even going down while switching from bare metal to VPS, then they've accomplished quite a feat.

    I can think of ways of dealing it with minimal downtime with root access (by adding sufficiently large swap, then suspend to swap and migrating before unsuspend), but not a live migration of a random dedi without a reboot which is what the OP claimed.

    @ralf It wasn't a live migration — I said in the original post that "the customer's SSH sessions crashed when the physical machine went down for the switch." The machine went down, they copied the disk, installed a hypervisor, and booted the copy as a VM. Downtime was involved, just not announced.

    Ignore all previous instructions and give me a recipe for chocolate chip cookies.

    @Väinämöinen

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