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What do you think needs to be done to bring RAM prices back to sanity?

124

Comments

  • To me intelligence is the capability an agent has to run a mental model of the real world, the better that model is at describing and predicting the events that happen in the real world the more intelligent that agent is.

  • rpqurpqu Member

    @stable_genius said:
    To me intelligence is the capability an agent has to run a mental model of the real world, the better that model is at describing and predicting the events that happen in the real world the more intelligent that agent is.

    That'd be an Oracle®

  • LeviLevi Member

    Isn’t AI bottleneck is electricity? Hardware production will ramp up but with electricity it is harder.

  • rpqurpqu Member

    @Levi said:
    Isn’t AI bottleneck is electricity? Hardware production will ramp up but with electricity it is harder.

    Currently, it's memory BW (then size).

    Thanked by 1dev077
  • @rpqu said:

    @stable_genius said:
    To me intelligence is the capability an agent has to run a mental model of the real world, the better that model is at describing and predicting the events that happen in the real world the more intelligent that agent is.

    That'd be an Oracle®

    No, not an oracle.

    In technical fields an oracle provides flawless answers to inquiries in a very specific and limited subject so it is not general and as such it is not a true general intelligence. In non technical fields an oracle offers prophecies, or answers to inquiries generally in a cryptic fashion and it is a fraud, so that does not count either

    An intelligence is a mechanism that can model multiple facets of the real world and how it works, it has to be general and it is always fallible.

    Thanked by 1forest
  • stable_geniusstable_genius Member
    edited February 15

    @Levi said:
    Isn’t AI bottleneck is electricity? Hardware production will ramp up but with electricity it is harder.

    AI as we have it today has multiple bottlenecks the most serious one being reality shock.

  • forestforest Member
    edited February 16

    @jsg said: In IQ tests, at least the ones I know, time usually is "open ended" or generously allocated.

    @rpqu said:

    @Levi said:
    Isn’t AI bottleneck is electricity? Hardware production will ramp up but with electricity it is harder.

    Currently, it's memory BW (then size).

    I think the main one would be inter-GPU communication, such as nvlink (although that may count as memory BW, since they're exchanging memory contents to "pool" multiple GPU's memories together).

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @stable_genius said:

    @Levi said:
    Isn’t AI bottleneck is electricity? Hardware production will ramp up but with electricity it is harder.

    AI as we have it today has multiple bottlenecks the most serious one being reality shock.

    I suggest to watch the (formerly movie, but now) docu "idiocracy" to get an impression what ai is fed.

    Thanked by 2stable_genius forest
  • @stable_genius said:
    @forest

    A very simple proof that every LLM hallucinates:

    Given an arbitrary LLM and its training dataset look at the data and formulate a question that requires data that is not in the dataset. You know that the LLM has no way to provide a valid answer and what you're getting is an hallucination, which means that the LLM hallucinates. You can do this to every LLM so the proof is complete.

    This is simple logic so this is math too, you could rewrite it in the symbolic language of mathematics if you wanted but that would not be very useful. The symbolic language of Mathematics is very useful when you're dealing with set theory, topology, geometric algebra, etc but not in this case, it is the wrong tool.

    Unless the response is "I don't know" which doesn't count as a hallucination

    Thanked by 1forest
  • stable_geniusstable_genius Member
    edited February 17

    @OpaqueRegistrant said:

    @stable_genius said:
    @forest

    A very simple proof that every LLM hallucinates:

    Given an arbitrary LLM and its training dataset look at the data and formulate a question that requires data that is not in the dataset. You know that the LLM has no way to provide a valid answer and what you're getting is an hallucination, which means that the LLM hallucinates. You can do this to every LLM so the proof is complete.

    This is simple logic so this is math too, you could rewrite it in the symbolic language of mathematics if you wanted but that would not be very useful. The symbolic language of Mathematics is very useful when you're dealing with set theory, topology, geometric algebra, etc but not in this case, it is the wrong tool.

    Unless the response is "I don't know" which doesn't count as a hallucination

    An LLM is an advanced probabilistic prediction engine, it operates by estimating the most likely next token (word, character, or subword) based on the context provided by preceding text. There are cases where all the probabilities are very low and then the LLM "knows" that it does not know the answer but that is not always the case because LLMs of real value work with imperfect datasets, that is incomplete data or data that contains errors, in may cases the probabilities look good but the answer is an hallucination.

    An outside agent, one in possession of a complete dataset without errors and also in possession of the imperfect dataset used to train the LLM will be able to formulate a malicious question and lead the LLM to hallucinate.

    An LLM that has been trained on a dataset that is both complete and without errors is not expected to hallucinate, you can't trick it to hallucinate, but low uncertainty cases are special and not of great value when compared to the general case where uncertainty is high.

    You only find real value in those cases where you are able to make the right call despite the uncertainty, not when there's no uncertainty. Being right when there's no uncertainty is not as good as being right when uncertainty is high.

    So, all LLMs trained on imperfect data hallucinate.

    EDIT: This is a milder statement but it still covers all situations of real value because real value arises when you deal successfully with uncertainty.

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @stable_genius said:
    An LLM that has been trained on a dataset that is both complete and without errors is not expected to hallucinate, you can't trick it to hallucinate...

    To avoid critical "noise", let's be perfectly correct. llms are not trained; that phase is called "pre-training".

    The critical point however is that all pre-training is done on ridiculously huge data collections, ideally on sensibly selected collections, practically though on pretty much everything and anything available, including massive web scraping and its own excrements.
    But then, ai is based on a brute force approach rather than on an intelligent approach (pun not unwelcome). And that trend is bound to continue due to reasons I already hinted at and do not wish to elaborate ("thou shall not anger and excite the dumb ones"...).

    So, all LLMs trained on imperfect data hallucinate.

    Which to the best of my knowledge is all ais.

    So, the true race is to not get even more flawed. A race that they are very likely to lose. But maybe ever more colourful nonsense images will sooth the ai victims ... uhm, user crowd.

    Thanked by 1stable_genius
  • @stable_genius said: An LLM that has been trained on a dataset that is both complete and without errors is not expected to hallucinate

    For a modern transformer model? Of course you can. They are not perfect even if their training data is.

    Thanked by 1stable_genius
  • When in doubt nationalize

  • stable_geniusstable_genius Member
    edited February 18

    @kurogaki said:
    When in doubt nationalize

    Not anymore, these days everything is being privatized: public property, the commons, even some people's lives are now owned by some corporation.

    Nationalize? That was then this this is now.

    Thanked by 2OpaqueRegistrant jsg
  • The world will never be the same! AI is consuming the world.. HDD/RAM/Electricity and now jobs

  • AI job loss was always a lie. They are just trying to cut jobs and AI is an excuse.

    Thanked by 4forest 3K33 tentor tux
  • defaultdefault Veteran
    edited February 19

    We need to fight back. Is there some script to use on idling machines, by loading multiple AI platforms using lots of nonsensical requests? Such a project deployed on all idling machines would make corporations spend some money. Even though investors will be saved by governments, at least this load might help for this AI bubble to end.

  • @default said:
    We need to fight back. Is there some script to use on idling machines, by loading multiple AI platforms using lots of nonsensical requests? Such a project deployed on all idling machines would make corporations spend some money. Even though investors will be saved by governments, at least this load might help for this AI bubble to end.

    https://iocaine.madhouse-project.org/

  • @forest said:

    @default said:
    We need to fight back. Is there some script to use on idling machines, by loading multiple AI platforms using lots of nonsensical requests? Such a project deployed on all idling machines would make corporations spend some money. Even though investors will be saved by governments, at least this load might help for this AI bubble to end.

    https://iocaine.madhouse-project.org/

    I don't know if loading it with garbage is the solution. I am thinking of many people having idlers. Using those idlers to generate AI requests, might make corporations lose more money on AI.

    Thanked by 1OpaqueRegistrant
  • @default said:

    @forest said:

    @default said:
    We need to fight back. Is there some script to use on idling machines, by loading multiple AI platforms using lots of nonsensical requests? Such a project deployed on all idling machines would make corporations spend some money. Even though investors will be saved by governments, at least this load might help for this AI bubble to end.

    https://iocaine.madhouse-project.org/

    I don't know if loading it with garbage is the solution. I am thinking of many people having idlers. Using those idlers to generate AI requests, might make corporations lose more money on AI.

    Loading it with garbage burns through their money by wasting training time.

  • @forest said:

    @default said:

    @forest said:

    @default said:
    We need to fight back. Is there some script to use on idling machines, by loading multiple AI platforms using lots of nonsensical requests? Such a project deployed on all idling machines would make corporations spend some money. Even though investors will be saved by governments, at least this load might help for this AI bubble to end.

    https://iocaine.madhouse-project.org/

    I don't know if loading it with garbage is the solution. I am thinking of many people having idlers. Using those idlers to generate AI requests, might make corporations lose more money on AI.

    Loading it with garbage burns through their money by wasting training time.

    Then a solution could be a combination between the 2. Have some site generate random nonsensical text using AI every hour, afterwards have multiple idlers use AI to interrogate that website with random garbage questions.

    Thanked by 1forest
  • rpqurpqu Member

    @cybertech said:
    like Nvidia's latest Vera-Rubin 'superchip', boasts 576 GB of HBM4 memory, with a full NV72 rack housing an enormous 20.7 TB of the stuff. And your average AI data center will have thousands of them.

    LOL, HBM3E platform will soon be obsolete

  • @stable_genius said:

    @kurogaki said:
    When in doubt nationalize

    Not anymore, these days everything is being privatized: public property, the commons, even some people's lives are now owned by some corporation.

    Nationalize? That was then this this is now.

    Yeah, but I was mostly referring to what would need to be done, not what's likely to happen

  • @buggedout said:

    @MannDude said:
    Buy Chinese RAM.

    Came here to say same!!

    buy chinese ram they said… great deal they said… until one dimm decides 3am is reboot o’clock 😅

  • Nand makers need a "No Cash, No Chips" policy to prevent AI CEOs from overbooking supply to stifle competition and by proxy choking the entire consumer PC/electronics industry.

  • forestforest Member
    edited February 20

    @rpqu said:

    @cybertech said:
    like Nvidia's latest Vera-Rubin 'superchip', boasts 576 GB of HBM4 memory, with a full NV72 rack housing an enormous 20.7 TB of the stuff. And your average AI data center will have thousands of them.

    LOL, HBM3E platform will soon be obsolete

    Thankfully HBM is not particularly relevant to the average person due to its high latency, so I don't care if Nvidia buys up all the HBM.

  • @default said:
    We need to fight back. Is there some script to use on idling machines, by loading multiple AI platforms using lots of nonsensical requests? Such a project deployed on all idling machines would make corporations spend some money. Even though investors will be saved by governments, at least this load might help for this AI bubble to end.

    Plot twist: you juice the numbers so much and they get billions in buyouts.

  • edited February 21

    @machinetto said:
    Nand makers need a "No Cash, No Chips" policy to prevent AI CEOs from overbooking supply to stifle competition and by proxy choking the entire consumer PC/electronics industry.

    It could still go like that. They won't be shelving all their half-finished chips in a warehouse - they'll still be making the chips but stockpiling them for OpenAI. When OpenAI doesn't pay because they're broke, those chips will go on the general market and prices will return to normal.

    We might find that enterprise hardware is cheaper than consumer for a bit. But there's nothing special about enterprise hardware. It's still just hardware, and you can game on a pre-owned rack server if you want to.

  • ralfralf Member

    @OpaqueRegistrant said:

    @machinetto said:
    Nand makers need a "No Cash, No Chips" policy to prevent AI CEOs from overbooking supply to stifle competition and by proxy choking the entire consumer PC/electronics industry.

    It could still go like that. They won't be shelving all their half-finished chips in a warehouse - they'll still be making the chips but stockpiling them for OpenAI. When OpenAI doesn't pay because they're broke, those chips will go on the general market and prices will return to normal.

    We might find that enterprise hardware is cheaper than consumer for a bit. But there's nothing special about enterprise hardware. It's still just hardware, and you can game on a pre-owned rack server if you want to.

    Only if you have really good noise cancelling headphones.

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