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Super higher pricing of the servers or what s your prediction?
Everything is skyrocketing . RAM,CPU etc Hands on and electricity of the data centers seems to continually be higher . So which is your prediction of the hosting business in terms of 3-4 years? If some hostings companies must pay X3 or higher pricing than some time ago ( just hardware) ..to add additional new servers in the company would not be without using new pricing . In which pricing range would be our 7$ servers? May be not more summer hostings companies ......well may be not ,unfortunately. There would be certain moment when ironically new customers would not be welcome . Or at least not at the price that we are used to rent their services .
Comments
There will always be summer hosting companies.
No matter how clear it is a scam it is too easy to make someone believe it is amazing deal which happens every day on here now
Someone buys cheap server, yabs taken by the provider on a empty node, all looks great, then the provider puts out an offer £20 a year for 4GB ram server, puts 50 VPS on that server, becomes crap, they buy a second node for a month, carry on selling, move a few people around when they complain, then advise (if you are lucky) they are closing
People start crying about the loss, charge back against a empty PayPal, empty stripe
Their bank covers the loss, few months time starts again
I know people want cheap servers but reality cheap is cash value is not always cheap when
a)Your data is gone if you do not keep backups
b)takes up your time fighting a chargeback case
c)more time posting about how hurt you are by getting scammed
It is better to pay a fair price to a provider who will still be here in a years time, maybe have to pay a small increase because providers costs have increased over that time but your server is stable, support is there if needed, no headaches
2 choices:
True that . I mean what about the hardware? If the price is pretty higher and the margins are thin a substantial increase is around the corner. How much??? This is the question
By however much it takes to stay profitable...
Hi ! Yeah or not accepting new customers for example . In the case that there are not new servers available at Reasonable price(hardware) .
The core issue I feel here is, the end customer need to be a realist when buying.
I see so many people on here demand $7 servers, a provider will do it as a PR stunt, oversell like crazy to cover costs then the same ones are the ones who troll providers who charge more but things are stable for months if not years.
I also note that location can be a big part, EG cost of power in the UK is much higher than Romania for example but people require a server in the UK but will demand the same price and performance which providers will do, unless they are a multi million pound setup that can afford to allow a handful of servers to run at a loss just for PR then a difficult case.
When I see a new provider popup here and offer annual deals my heart sinks knowing within a few months all the customers will be seeking a refugee deal from stable providers, if they had paid a little more at the start, ignore what was clearly a scam or would deadpool they would save time, energy and stress.
I would like to see a rule that any provider, no matter their background of company the first 6 months of their tag can only offer monthly services that gives everyone a chance to test things without paying eg 1,2,3 years in advance to someone who bought their tag and will probably chargeback on that after they deadpool anyway
I agree with you . But I mean the price of the hardware is out of any reasonable point . At certain moment even the more predictable owners of servers would run out of parts for new servers ......so at certain moment the 7$ servers would become more and more expensive. Matter of time ( obviously is my personal opinion I could be wrong) . It is not just electricity etc comparing UK with some another countries usually everything would be more expensive in the UK . Well Asia may be the exception of the rule.( For servers bw etc)
That us true, when a provider passes on an increase to do that even a small one just to keep it even covering costs the threads are made here, trolls come out the woodwork and either you have them "chargeback yesterday" or "AVOID PROVIDER PRICE HIKES" as the title then that shows in google search when someone looks for feedback on your business before ordering even if they are not members hear, they will read threads of the trolls who are not even customers posting random BS about the provider that half the time is untrue and they find amusing because they have very little else to occupy themselves
Is LET really about being profitable?
I genuinely thought providers are loosing money on customers from here for the sake of SEO, visibility and recommendations. Actually profitable clients probably come from outside of LET.
also tagging @xHosts
Yeh, sometimes there needs to be a middle point with providers.
I provide some older hardware VPS, these are still highly functional, use SSD but not brand new latest hardware, people on forums will not look at this as they want the latest of everything at last years price. Once people become realists of pricing and expectations that is what will shape people more. The amount of tickets I have had telling me their provider is closing and they want a price match and when you check the price it is clear why the provider is closing, possibly their provider has gotten the first 3 months half price or something then when full price becomes active they cannot pay it and close.
As the prices of RAM, and storage is now increasing even large providers will be forced to either eat up that and have smaller profits or they will sack a few staff that are on £25k a year and keep the pricing the same for a while and pray the prices return to something more normal within the next 12 months and then they have learnt to cope without them staff giving them bigger profits again.
Yeah nobody likes higher pricing on what really likes . Completely normal . It is happening everywhere in any business. There are opinions and opinions ........everyone must read between the lines. Like I have used to say . Before criticism . Do you can get it work better/cheaper etc. ? Then do it and be critic after that.....
The issue on here is its minimal profit at times, while also can be a headache too.
Provider offers a deal, handful of stock, people will buy them up, resell them or sell a year package, few months time a charge back opens provider fights it but as a provider we have no clue who is who on here unless they post an order number.
It would be great if LET had something like a feedback system maybe like fraud record and if there is a chargeback and no deal such as double bandwidth and order number shared we can find out who this person is from the forum and feedback could be left or in cases of repeat abuse they can be banned from here, when new accounts sign up do as some billing software does and detect things such as IP, cookies ect and link accounts up
I feel some providers give up offering decent things too because if they lose a charge back on a $10 server and charged $15-25 in charge back fees its worse than none profit it turns into a loss of maybe x3 in total.
If a provider can be banned for doing something wrong, serial charge back customers should also be banned to protect providers which if providers felt they had some protection too they would be more willing to share an offer at $10 ect if they could see who is a good customer to have and who will be a nightmare
I am often happy to work a little on prices, the issue with threads sometimes, people will not take the time to read the thread, just a google search result with that title and that is customers lost because some people will just see the "avoid" and cannot be bothered to read maybe 10 pages when the trolls join in to get the full story.
The main thing that will almost certainly happen that's unfair is price increases on a server you've had for years. I don't care if your new hardware for other customers costs more, mine was bought years ago and apart from maybe electricity increases won't cost any more to run in the future.
If providers keep old prices the same and increase them for new offers, that seems fair, after all, those new offers are also getting better hardware too.
The nice side effect would be when older customers drop older servers they don't want a y more, they can resell space on those nodes for promo deals, as they're already paid for and cheaper than the current new nodes.
Od course, I suspect it won't happen that way with most providers who know that sales will be a lot slower on massively more expensive plans. Maybe that should be their sign that they don't need to grow as much this year.
Hi,
just some examples buying hardware:
Used parts:
64 GB RAM 2666 REG ECC = ~ 70 EUR before. Now ~ 300 EUR.
10 TB HDD 7200 RPM SAS = ~ 60 EUR before. Now ~ 150-200 EUR.
New parts:
4 TB NVMe M.2 Module = 300 EUR before. Now 950 EUR.
64 GB DDR5 UDIMM = 170 EUR before. Now 900 EUR.
64 GB DDR5 REG ECC = 400-500 EUR before. Now 2.5k EUR.
And if you know that CPU/RAM/Disk are the price making factors if you buy a server, and if 2 of 3 resources just 3-4x your buying price, so what exactly will happen to your selling price?
Yep... even if you go through bank finance or what ever, you will have to 2-3x your prices or its simply better NOT to buy and just cash in the 3% interest the banks will give you currently for your money.
So if you ask for the future prediction, i see it the way that everyone is selling now his existing stock for normal pricings, without being too much eager to make special discounts.
And as soon as this stock is gone, they will simply stop selling ( as many customers -- especially not the "usual" LET customers ( no offense
)) would anyway not pay the price you will have to ask for.
OR you will see price raise of factor 2. Providers who have anyway a high price wont need to change their pricing too much but even for them its just a matter of time.
So right now we are in the middle of a race. Will the stock hardware be enough until the AI bubble finally burst and cheap hardware will flood the market.
If you want to do something good for the normal people, use all your idlers, all your private phones, laptops, desktops -- including the ones of your family, collegues, schoolmates, who ever and make sure to run scripts that will ask AI nonstop what ever.
If we are lucky, we can generate 300-500 billion USD loss for the AI companies per month. That would greatly accelerate a normalization. Currently we are only at around 100 billion USD ( as far as i know ).
Or we will wait until stock hardware is out ( i actually need to buy a new VGA for my private usage and will have to pay now 2-3x of what it cost just 1/3 year ago ) and then WE pay with our money for the profit of the vendor's producing mainly for AI who currently does not care about money as they have tons of risk capital.
But maybe not tons like 500 billion loss per month
So gogogo, save the planet! ( And our wallets )....
tbh, totally get what you're saying here. There's a ton of drama to have over provider increasing prices from unsustainable to a bit less unsustainable. Something like this recently happened with @DeluxHost when they increased yearly price by like 2-3 usd/y. This negatively affects SEO of course. Even on NS people now associate deluxhost with price hikes.
Not blaming people who are discussing in the LET thread. However I think some of us just have very big expectations and forget what they actually paid for their plan.
Just wait for my ticket hehe
ps. also remember many of us actually idle servers, so we don't even run anything important on them. Some providers have the idea all clients buy servers with a clear purpose. LET builds something like "idling culture", whether you like it or not (i personally do).
However if my plan is priced like $15/y, I obviously won't run prod on it because I understand the provider can change their mind (or deadpool). Actually happens pretty often.
with the amount of time i spend on LET recently i take this personally hahah
I get people here like drama but also the same ones demand this or that from a provider or will name and shame them, which is a problem. If a provider has some something that is beyond fair I get it, expose and share your experience but when its more of a blackmail culture of "do this or i will bring drama your way" or as a provider sometimes certain things are just not included with an offer and you get put on a name and shame list which can easily be taken out of context by someone who is not a member, just sees a list
name and shame and a list of providers, everything needs context but also at the same time things need to be fair for someone to expose a serious issue with a provider such as snooping on your files but when its used to apply pressure to a provider to give whatever someone wants it is a real issue, even if you cancel that customer and issue a full refund, the thread is still made and that is your seo and reputation damaged here, even if a provider could have sometimes handled a situation a little better but to save drama and wasting each others times will just refund and move on that still cannot happen because of trolls who really will push providers who give them free stuff or they affiliate with while will troll small providers who cannot afford to give free stuff because they are smaller, have smaller profit margins.
gonna have to start sucking cock for money for real this time, doing it for free wont help me pay my vepees bills
Definitely that's understandable. Not sure how big your loses are on chargebacks. I've heard there are some ways of dealing with them - encouraging customers to pay with crypto, probably the easiest. Other ways would probably include proactive and manual monitoring and issuing refunds manually based on the suspicion this client is not legitimate (before they get the chance to chargeback).
In any case - not something easy to implement. I really wish you luck with that. Personally I don't want providers to associate LET with bunch of scammers whose only dream is to buy cheap stuff and charge back providers.
Regarding reselling, i don't think scalping or changing email addresses (or their ownership) is something commonly seen on LET. However I know a couple providers deal with that a lot on their cheap deal plans and it's really painful to watch.
On LET the only accepted way of transfer is to notify the provider and ask for transfer (and pay the fee if it's required).
Well this is certainly an idea, however I see an issue. I suspect not all buyers of your LET promo offers come from LET. Sometimes there are reposts to telegram channels, nodeseek, other forums.
Never thought about the "post your order id to double resources" being used as a way to link client to their profile, but that's pretty smart I think.
Thanks for your time explaining your perspective @xHosts
Honestly great and refreshing to see xhosts and layer7 both respond responsibly in this thread.
Layer7 is correct and I hope that AI bubble bursts as soon as possible too (Burn the free tier web building open source software!)
I do feel like hosting space might have changed recently & I just hope that providers are able to eat the costs till the bubble bursts because afterwards the prices will drop quite a large amount (I feel 12 -24 months is a reasonable expectable amount)
Oloke's response is also really great. I feel like having people buy with crypto feels like something which will happen more if chargebacks are something hosts worry about.
I have always wondered if github sponsorships could work as a way for providers haha because github sponsorships gives you 100% of what you get (- the bank fees only) & then will actually eat any chargeback fees if that happens
And github (aka mIcrosoft aka AI) will actually lose money when people chargeback!
On top of my mind, I feel like more subscription discount models or anything can be built on github sponsorships if a direct vps subscription can't be built
I am thinking say reliablesite's metal+ like thing being hosted on github for chargeback protection. Crypto's great too
Honestly I just want my vendors to be reasonable & just discuss things with me
My prediction is simple: the end is nigh.
Don’t forget balls for that extra tip.
This is actually a great idea. Is there a script on GitHub or something, to just send to an AI of choice a random question like every 10 seconds?
You aren't running a business if you don't accept new customers.
I don't know whether vanilla is capable of, but something like personal coupon code would be nice. So, you could track who's who without thousands of post just for asking double bandwidth/storage/ram.
When chargeback is made , publish the account handle and let LET moderator & public asses whether it's justified or not.
If it's not justified, put it into temporary blacklist for like 3 months. Repeat offender could be banned.
As for transfer, i think it should be posted in forum and made like an auction (except when user request transfer from another user e.g by sheer coincidence ).
I am mostly open to discuss anything with the customer, in my own view I would rather build a more friendly based business relationship than a hardline money pot type, all I ask is if I am prepared to be clear and fair with someone they are the same in return with me.
I can see why people demand cheap servers it can be for a number of reasons, running something that has no income but there to support others, they are themselves from a humble background but want maybe learn something to progress themselves and I will often listen and see what I can do to help them.
I know many providers here come from shall we say fair monetary backgrounds and do not really grasp the difference between wanting something cheaper and possibly requiring such as someone from a humble background aiming to start their own business on a limited budget with little room for error or higher costs, this is a point I can strongly relate on since I started out on a £10 a month cPanel hosting reseller and a £5 linux VPS for haproxy game server proxies and built everything up over the years but there is a huge difference between helping someone starting out to having someone who simply does not want to pay the fair price since all providers at the end of the day seek a profit, that is what a business is for.
I will give a example here, It was during covid a customer who had a number of VPs for their business advised they could not pay for 2 reasons
1 - They are waiting for the Gov support payments our gov in the UK issued to businesses during this time
2 - they had a serious illness start with C
I took all that on board for since it went from that to awaiting tests and treatment, I kept all their stuff running to support them, in the end I was made aware by another customer in the discord server that had been messaged by this person offering VPS from a company they had setup, it was all lies but I took legal action to recover what I was owed plus costs
While a provider that maybe operates all their own hardware would not really care about a figure a ball park figure of £650 to a small provider that can have a big impact on the business
I think when buying perspective of the company and expectation is important, since on LET we have a mix of providers who operate a number of global networks and providers like myself who resell hardware and work from a home office and all have different profit margins depending on if the main providers are willing to do partnerships to take on small customers and aid their growth which can be better for them maybe having one customer that is long term having 20 servers rather than having 20 customers with 1 server and some leave after a month and then that server might need removing from the rack if its a custom build or at least a fresh os which is all time and money to providers
Sounds expensive!
Check outside of LET and other lower end forums, £20 for 4GB is cheap, some providers will charge that or more per month.
The real question is when the AI bubble busts and tons of hardware floods the market.
Oracle is getting sued by their own shareholders because they borrowed billions to build AI datacenters at a much higher cost than originally predicted and reported to cost. That's going to happen to others as costs skyrocket over previous estimates.
There's only so much investment before there needs to be a return before investors pull their money and shit starts pulling down the market.
I imagine that profitably requires the small fish to die and only a few big guys can afford to wait things out. OpenAI is rumored to be cash broke all the time...
nvidia just had like the most profitable quarter, because expectation, stock still went down. Some financial pricks will probably do some sort of short shenanigans and make a killing but kill the economy.
That being said, AI to cure diseases needs to be a thing. AI to make us lazier is not so much needed.
It always and has been conflicting interest of hedge fund/investment banking vs ordinary people.
Everything they invest in has to generate return, and who will they charge? The people
Who will suffer if they made a huge mistake? The people