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Prepaid hosting and deposits that can't be refunded
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Meanwhile, at LET headquarters’ hourly anti-scam meeting:
I wonder if their trusted law firm is at the same location.
Is that really the "company"?
teh real adress is: helvete 1, 666 oslo
I hope for everyone involved that @vitobotta receives his money (with a possible deduction) and that @24fire understands that the few euros that will be refunded as a gesture of goodwill is the best thing for everyone and that “grass will grow over the matter,” as we say in German, and no one will talk about it anymore in the future, and everyone will think about whether this commotion was necessary (customer satisfaction, image, etc.). At least, that's the solution I would like to see before this becomes a self-perpetuating cycle and no one can be happy anymore. There's a saying, “shits go south.”
A summary of the aforementioned ruling with AI:
The Federal Court of Justice ruling of October 25, 2019 (Ref. III ZR 132/19) deals with the legal situation regarding prepaid credit for online services.
... yes lets ride together into sunset and love each other....
for world peace 
This is extremely helpful, thanks! I hope @24fire keeps this into account.
Can you find any links to this ruling, other than what AI possibly hallucinated?
because i can not find it, and im hoping its just my bad searching and not you just pasting what ai says without verifying it
I did a research with Felo too and the summary of it is this:
In Germany, several consumer protection laws apply to prepaid credits, ensuring fairness and safeguarding consumer rights. Here are the key legal frameworks and principles:
1. German Civil Code (BGB)
Sections 307–309 BGB: These provisions regulate unfair terms in contracts, including clauses that unreasonably disadvantage consumers. For example, terms stating that prepaid credits are non-refundable under all circumstances can be invalidated if deemed unfair.
Section 812 BGB: This addresses unjust enrichment, meaning companies cannot retain money for services they have not provided. If a consumer cancels a contract and has unused prepaid credits, the company may be required to refund the balance unless a valid service was rendered.
As part of EU consumer protection laws, Germany enforces rules ensuring transparency and fairness in contracts. Prepaid credits must be handled in a way that does not exploit consumers, and refunds may be required if services are not delivered.
Companies cannot act as banks by indefinitely holding prepaid funds. Prepaid credits are often treated as "coupons" or "purpose-bound money," which must be refunded if no service is provided. This aligns with financial regulations that prevent misuse of consumer funds.
The BGH has ruled that clauses preventing refunds for prepaid credits (e.g., for SIM cards or other services) are unlawful if they unreasonably disadvantage consumers. Such practices can constitute unjust enrichment and violate consumer protection laws.
This law emphasizes consumer rights in subscription and prepaid models. It requires clear terms and prohibits practices that unfairly restrict refunds or impose unreasonable conditions on consumers.
Under German VAT law, VAT is due when services are rendered, not when prepaid credits are purchased. If services are not provided, companies may need to adjust their VAT declarations and refund unused credits.
Key Takeaways for Consumers
Refund Rights: Consumers are entitled to refunds for unused prepaid credits if no service was provided, even if the provider's terms state otherwise.
Unfair Terms: Clauses that unreasonably restrict refunds can be invalidated under §§ 307–309 BGB.
Legal Recourse: Consumers can challenge unfair practices through courts or consumer protection organizations.
These laws collectively ensure that prepaid credits are managed fairly and transparently, protecting consumers from exploitation.
From Felo:
Felo AI, for those who don't know it since it's pretty new, is a search engine that extracts information from live search results. I have never seen it hallucinate like ChatGPT or similar even with the most complicated questions where I was sure of the answers for my tests.
I want to state again that I no longer use @24fire's services so I don't have any active service at all. The balance is just unused credit.
Depends.
If it was you topping up your account or them crediting your account after cancelling a running service. => Then i think you should be able to receive a refund.
If you had taken part in a "double your payment/credit" type of promotional item. Then no.
If you had a service that you pre-paid for a year (ie: discount if you buy a dedi and pay yearly), but you (the user) cancelled/stopped AND the provider decided to be nice and put the remaining run time in your account balance to help you order other services from them, instead of just declaring no early cancellations) => then no.
Your biggest problem is that you can't just pay an invoice on your site, you have to load credits into your account. The minimum amount you can load is 5EUR, yet most of your services cost less than that!
To be your customer you basically have to plan out X number of months in the future you want service and calculate the cost if you want to top-up the account and not have a balance left over after X months.
If I'm not mistaken, the ruling was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I couldn't find it online.
Update: @24fire has offered to pay back at least 53.1e for the last two automatic PayPal payments made to add credits to my account. That means I’ll still lose 18.32e, which is more than what I’d call a “fair” fee, but it’s better than nothing-and definitely better than taking a more difficult path.
Thanks to everyone who pitched in during this discussion! I appreciate it.
I set up an automatic monthly withdrawal from PayPal to buy credits. These credits are used to pay ahead for prepaid services. It's just a simple way to automate the process so I don't have to remember to add credits manually each time. It wasn't part of any special offer or anything like that!
Personally thats why i have been trying to move away from papyal subscriptions. Currently only using them for a few long-term clients on myrootpw. The rest is all either "one-time" paypal payments (no subscription) or credit card for recurring payments at this point.
Once i have the last few people off paypal subscriptions i plan to change the setup and go for paypal payments (with intents) so that all my Brands can operate process payments for recurring services directly. Rather than paypals automatic sending of payments. That remove most issues i have had with paypal subscriptions.
I dont get it why they arent refunding you the whole amount. It seems as though this company urgently needs every euro it can get which is not a good picture at all. @24fire you got a donation link, i guess you really need it?!
Yeah I will definitely avoid prepaid services in general in the future. Like I said, I learned my lesson. It's just better to use providers with regular billing.
I agree-it really doesn’t reflect well on them. But between this result and going through a long process with PayPal or the courts in the EU or Germany, I’d rather take this route. To be honest, I was fully set on pushing through no matter what, but only after getting helpful input from others in this thread. Their comments confirmed what I believed: the provider shouldn’t be allowed to hold my money like that.
I really hope 24fire and other providers who do the same thing with credits take a closer look at their practices. To me, it feels like having a prepaid system is just a way to make more money through these kinds of tricks. And honestly, it makes those providers look bad.
I just realized after replying who I was replying to
You are one of the people I am most thankful to for helping with this matter 
@24fire you still should refund the 18€ left.
Sounds like they HAD to take more than a fair fee.
But it's better than nothing.
End of the day though this does them more damage than good
I for one was looking for DE BF deals and 24fire were on my watch list.
Wouldn't touch them with a barge pole now.
I just saw the notifications from PayPal, they have refunded the two last payments. Feels still unfair for the remaining 18 euros though.
I'm pretty sure a few potential customers will rethink buying their services now. Starting this conversation was helpful-not just for me, but for others too.
A few fewer purchases due to this thread already amount to more than this €18 loss, and it continues to increase.
I suggest a new name: 24charityfire
@Calin calling you to close this thread
Lots of hosts have issues with PayPal subscriptions because they can set them up, but not cancel them. Last time I forgot about one and a host didn't refund my 4.5eur... after months no response.
I had to chargeback that one based on the fact that if I cancel my contract that means it should also be cancelled as the permission for said payment is not there anymore.
"In the absence of consent, a payment transaction shall be considered to be unauthorised"
To clarify our view of the matter and hopefully conclude this issue on a positive note:
Vito and I reached an agreement yesterday via our support system. Both automatic PayPal payments from the past months have been fully refunded, and he has confirmed receipt. The remaining ~€18 in his account is from a previous server order that was refunded as a credit by our system when he returned the instance earlier. This credit cannot simply be “refunded again” because it is technically and accounting-wise linked to the previous invoice cancellation. To reverse this, additional tax adjustments and rebookings by our accountant would be required—which would cost significantly more than the remaining amount itself.
In practice, we have therefore taken the same approach that other hosts here (such as Layer7) have described earlier in this thread:
When a service is purchased and then canceled, and the system issues an internal credit, that credit is no longer a direct “deposit” but part of the internal booking logic. A manual cancellation would incur higher administrative and tax costs than the actual amount is worth.
However, the matter was resolved amicably.
We are pleased that we were finally able to get the matter resolved with Vito – and consider the case closed.
I'm impressed you guys have trusted law firms AND accountants. Very unusual in these parts.