Prepaid hosting and deposits that can't be refunded

itachikonoha · November 2025

Give discount and sell the server.

layer7 · November 2025

@vitobotta said:
They said they cannot allow transferring balance to someone else either.

Hi,

then the only way would be that you buy for someone, all remains in your account and you order for this person what ever.

Good: You get at least some portion of your money back.
Bad: You are responsible for that ever this person does and it might be annoying if he ask you to install 20 times a week and solve technical issues accessing the console and stuff like this.

Sorry... seems you are stuck in this situation. Maybe at some point they will offer something that is interesting for you.

But keep in mind... this kind of credit does not live for ever. ( Max. 3 years according to law ) -- maybe/most probably less based on the TOS of the provider.

Good luck!

ascicode · November 2025

only prepay a sum if its worth to renew or its before due date. That makes the balance always zero after renewal and nothing to worry about.

hennaboy · November 2025

@Shamli said:
Get a service, then transfer(sell) it to someone else....

This?

There has to be someway for you to not lose out here.

Levi · November 2025

@layer7 said:

@Levi said:
Nope, you can’t as this action requires license.

Hi,

i am not sure if this is correct in this case.

As customer A will actually sell a right ( coupon/funds/right to buy services for up to X EUR ) to customer B.
This does not even need to be the same amount of money. ( Selling 70 EUR right for 50 EUR ).

You can also sell your virtual servers... there you also sell a (usage) right. That should be actually possible. Another question is, if the provider will have some handling fee's for this.

But at least this topic is not covered by bank license or similar stuff. ( Afaik )

It is wrong. Vitto loaded money into account, not bought credits. This means that each time Vitto buys service - he receive valid vat invoice. This means account holds monetary value.

layer7 · November 2025

@Levi said:
It is wrong. Vitto loaded money into account, not bought credits. This means that each time Vitto buys service - he receive valid vat invoice. This means account holds monetary value.

Hi,

a coupon == purpose bound money

While i am not sure if the translation is not a problem here...

I think in english a coupon means (also) a % reduction of a price. While in german its actually an absolute value of money that can be used to buy something. A % reduction would have another name.

Just like it was already said here, normally a prepayment would have to be returned. You as a company or who ever can not just keep money -- even you say so in your TOS. It would violate law as you did nothing for it so its some kind of overpayment for unfulfilled contract.

Thats why on this money there is no VAT. At that point no business happend actually. Also this money is actually no income of the company.

To solve this all contradiction, its simply considered paying for a coupon that do not need to be returned if not fulfilled.

Especially this here:

@Levi said:
Vitto loaded money into account, not bought credits.

Is actually the same. Because the specific context here is NOT a bank. Its a company. You just cant load money into an account ( like money account like you have it with a bank ) with a company.
So if you give money to a company you ARE "buying" credit with them.

hennaboy · November 2025

@Levi said:

@layer7 said:

@Levi said:
Nope, you can’t as this action requires license.

Hi,

i am not sure if this is correct in this case.

As customer A will actually sell a right ( coupon/funds/right to buy services for up to X EUR ) to customer B.
This does not even need to be the same amount of money. ( Selling 70 EUR right for 50 EUR ).

You can also sell your virtual servers... there you also sell a (usage) right. That should be actually possible. Another question is, if the provider will have some handling fee's for this.

But at least this topic is not covered by bank license or similar stuff. ( Afaik )

It is wrong. Vitto loaded money into account, not bought credits. This means that each time Vitto buys service - he receive valid vat invoice. This means account holds monetary value.

Good point.

So you need to determine

Service Contract (Dienstvertrag): Web hosting is a continuing service contract under the BGB. If you're terminating the service, unused prepayments should be refundable.

No mutual consent for "voucher" conversion: You paid for web hosting services. The provider cannot unilaterally convert your prepayment into a non-refundable credit/voucher without your agreement.

VAT issue: If they've declared VAT on services not yet provided (and now won't be provided), this creates a tax problem. Under German VAT law, VAT is generally due when services are performed. If services weren't performed, the VAT basis may need to be corrected, and you should receive a refund.

xvps · November 2025

@vitobotta said:

@Levi said:

@vitobotta said:

@Levi said:
According to cgpt lawyer in Germany:

Consumer Rights

Providers must state terms of use for prepaid credit (refunds, expiry, etc.).

They must issue invoices when credit is used for services (for tax reasons).

Credit usually isn’t refundable, unless required by law (e.g. if the provider closes or breaches contract).

VAT (MwSt) applies when the service is rendered, not necessarily when you add credit — though accounting practices vary.

In the terms there is only this that I could find, translated in English:

11.7 The credit topped up by the customer cannot be paid out under any circumstances. It can only be used to extend existing services and purchase new services in the shop used by the provider. When reversing payments or opening PayPal cases We reserve the right to use the customer account and all related services until further notice to block or permanently delete.

What law gives them the right to hold my balance hostage? Is it enough for them to just say in the terms that they won't refund the credits? Shouldn't there be a law that regulates these things and says if what they are doing is legal?

The money is gone. You are free to test your anger in German court. Buy server for that sum, sell it on bargain here and swallow the loss.

Do not pre-pay. Even if it is known provider. Never give money in advance.

Lesson learned I guess.

Your first lesson should be not to seek legal advice on LET or listen to low-end "lawyers".

If you are a consumer:
German courts (and the BGH, Federal Court of Justice) have ruled that similar clauses, such as those for prepaid SIM cards, are unlawful under §§ 307–309 BGB because they unreasonably disadvantage the customer.

The reasoning: the company provides no service for that money, so keeping it constitutes unjust enrichment under § 812 BGB.

Therefore, even if their AGB states “no refunds under any circumstances,” this can be struck down as invalid when you’re a consumer.

B2B transactions have weaker protections.
If you created your account as a “business” (checked “I am a company” or entered a company name/VAT ID), the clause is likely enforceable unless you can show it’s grossly unfair.

If you are a consumer, you can read more at https://www.eccnet.eu/

hennaboy · November 2025

@xvps said:

@vitobotta said:

@Levi said:

@vitobotta said:

@Levi said:
According to cgpt lawyer in Germany:

Consumer Rights

Providers must state terms of use for prepaid credit (refunds, expiry, etc.).

They must issue invoices when credit is used for services (for tax reasons).

Credit usually isn’t refundable, unless required by law (e.g. if the provider closes or breaches contract).

VAT (MwSt) applies when the service is rendered, not necessarily when you add credit — though accounting practices vary.

In the terms there is only this that I could find, translated in English:

11.7 The credit topped up by the customer cannot be paid out under any circumstances. It can only be used to extend existing services and purchase new services in the shop used by the provider. When reversing payments or opening PayPal cases We reserve the right to use the customer account and all related services until further notice to block or permanently delete.

What law gives them the right to hold my balance hostage? Is it enough for them to just say in the terms that they won't refund the credits? Shouldn't there be a law that regulates these things and says if what they are doing is legal?

The money is gone. You are free to test your anger in German court. Buy server for that sum, sell it on bargain here and swallow the loss.

Do not pre-pay. Even if it is known provider. Never give money in advance.

Lesson learned I guess.

Your first lesson should be not to seek legal advice on LET or listen to low-end "lawyers".

If you are a consumer:
German courts (and the BGH, Federal Court of Justice) have ruled that similar clauses, such as those for prepaid SIM cards, are unlawful under §§ 307–309 BGB because they unreasonably disadvantage the customer.

The reasoning: the company provides no service for that money, so keeping it constitutes unjust enrichment under § 812 BGB.

Therefore, even if their AGB states “no refunds under any circumstances,” this can be struck down as invalid when you’re a consumer.

B2B transactions have weaker protections.
If you created your account as a “business” (checked “I am a company” or entered a company name/VAT ID), the clause is likely enforceable unless you can show it’s grossly unfair.

If you are a consumer, you can read more at https://www.eccnet.eu/

I don't see anyone here pretending to be a lawyer. We are purely discussing options.

layer7 · November 2025

@hennaboy said:
No mutual consent for "voucher" conversion: You paid for web hosting services. The provider cannot unilaterally convert your prepayment into a non-refundable credit/voucher without your agreement.

Hi,

yes thats the point here. They somehow communicated it in the TOS ( no refund ).

I dont know what a judge will make out of all of it.

Company claim: Moneylaundry / TOS / ... rules

vs.

Customer claim: No service provided

I just red through their general terms of service a bit ( AGB ) and found this:

"
15) Spenden

15.1 Auf einer vom Anbieter zur Verfügung gestellten Spendenseite (spenden.24fire.de) können andere Benutzer Guthaben spenden und von internen oder externen Benutzern erhalten. Eine externe Zahlung ist eine normale Guthabenaufladung in Euro (€). Aufgrund des Geldwäschegesetzes (GwG) und der AGB einiger Zahlungsdienstleister kann das Kundenguthaben nicht ausgezahlt werden. Das Guthaben bleibt auf dem Kundenkonto, bis es nach den Datenschutzbestimmungen (DSGVO) gelöscht werden muss oder die Person verstorben oder nicht mehr handlungsfähig ist.
"

Spenden are donations....

And it seems they provide an URL where you can actually transfer money internally between users.... IF this works, maybe that could be a solution?!

Aside of that they claim that they cant refund because of money laundry ( GwG ) and because some TOS of payment gateways ?!?! Never heard of that but well...

I checked out this spenden.24fire.de URL and it leads to the mainside. Seems they deactivated it and didnt update their TOS?!

But since its still part of it, and not your problem @vitobotta maybe you can push them a bit lovely to make an exception for you.

Also ( and thats actually very important ):

IF your payment was recently and IF you just want to have it returned to your original payment source THEN hiding behind money laundry laws does actually not really work.

I think there cant be money laundry if Out and In is identical....

But all in all, after reading their TOS and their general appearance of their website talking about transparency and good partnership and all there might be some space of improvement to handle such cases.

EDIT:

And this:

@xvps said:

If you are a consumer:
German courts (and the BGH, Federal Court of Justice) have ruled that similar clauses, such as those for prepaid SIM cards, are unlawful under §§ 307–309 BGB because they unreasonably disadvantage the customer.

The reasoning: the company provides no service for that money, so keeping it constitutes unjust enrichment under § 812 BGB.

Therefore, even if their AGB states “no refunds under any circumstances,” this can be struck down as invalid when you’re a consumer.

is actually a good hint!

In the details the law says that the disadvantage should not be unrightful or overwhelming. But of course the company has also to honor the money laundry. So that this "disadvantage" "might" be justified.

If you can find a recent court order saying that its unlawful ( while the stronger money laundry rules are already in power ) then of course you would have automatically "won".

But in any way, its something you can pressure them So gogogogo

And good luck!

EDIT 2: And of course as disclaimer: this is all no law advice here obviously from me and just opinion and interpretation. If unsure, ask a lawyer. But i hope you can make it through otherwise.

theraw · November 2025

ask them if they accept custom orders, then order some pizza 🤔

24fire · November 2025

@vitobotta said:
What should I do then? The provider is 24fire.de. I think their handle here is @24fire

Hi,

I received a message about this today. If you like, I'll be happy to take a look at it. However, my colleagues are quite right in saying that we do not issue refunds. This is stated in our terms and conditions, and must be accepted via a checkbox for every transaction.

We also don't just debit money from anywhere. On the contrary, we have exactly two options for customers to regularly and automatically top up their credit. Either through a standing order to our bank account or through a PayPal subscription. Both can be revoked by the customer at any time.

@layer7 said: But since its still part of it, and not your problem @vitobotta maybe you can push them a bit lovely to make an exception for you.

Well, we have made one or two exceptions in the past and waived our claims. Unfortunately, in 95% of cases, this resulted in us incurring exorbitantly higher costs than the transaction itself, or similar.

After that, we agreed within the team that we would no longer make any exceptions. I'm sorry.

Credits cannot be transferred. But I can also tell you that we have never “deleted” credits in all the years we have been operating. So (as things stand at present) they do not expire with us.

hyperblast · November 2025

@vitobotta said:
They said that it's because of "money laundering regulations". Does it make any sense to you?

nein!

in english: no!

hyperblast · November 2025

@layer7 said:
Hi,

this is actually not handled like money that you have on an account ( even it might look like this ).

This is actually handled like a coupon.

By transferring money to them you essentially bought a coupon ( valid for up to 3 years -- please read their TOS that might state otherwise ). And coupons again are of course not refundable, most people will naturally assume that its not refundable.

Aside of the question if this is good behavior of the company or nice or what ever, a big problem nowadays are money laundry laws that getting, thanks to the crypto stuff, more and more heavy an a bureaucratic nightmare.

Imagine someone pays through what ever to you ( creditcard, bank, crypto, what ever ) and then 1 year later ask you to pay it out, or even a portion of it.

You would be automatically like a bank. But you are no bank, you dont have a bank license and you dont want to be a bank actually. Thats one problem.

Another problem will come up because the customer creditcard/bank/crypto/what ever might have changed already. So you wont pay back to the original funding source but paying somewhere else. Doing like this you are fully in classic money laundry.

I can fully understand that most providers will like to avoid this whole evil topic and simply define: What ever comes to us, stay with us. The only question is to proper communicate it.

can i order a vps like a coupon too?

hyperblast · November 2025

@vitobotta said:
Thanks for the explanation @layer7 .

They said they cannot allow transferring balance to someone else either.

where there's a will, there's a way.

this company seems to be very much oriented towards the german civil service.
complicate everything to the point of exhaustion!

hennaboy · November 2025

@24fire said:

@vitobotta said:
What should I do then? The provider is 24fire.de. I think their handle here is @24fire

Hi,

I received a message about this today. If you like, I'll be happy to take a look at it. However, my colleagues are quite right in saying that we do not issue refunds. This is stated in our terms and conditions, and must be accepted via a checkbox for every transaction.

We also don't just debit money from anywhere. On the contrary, we have exactly two options for customers to regularly and automatically top up their credit. Either through a standing order to our bank account or through a PayPal subscription. Both can be revoked by the customer at any time.

@layer7 said: But since its still part of it, and not your problem @vitobotta maybe you can push them a bit lovely to make an exception for you.

Well, we have made one or two exceptions in the past and waived our claims. Unfortunately, in 95% of cases, this resulted in us incurring exorbitantly higher costs than the transaction itself, or similar.

After that, we agreed within the team that we would no longer make any exceptions. I'm sorry.

Credits cannot be transferred. But I can also tell you that we have never “deleted” credits in all the years we have been operating. So (as things stand at present) they do not expire with us.

Surely, it would depend on how the customer requires a refund?

Granted, some payment providers don't refund fees but that still leaves it open to discussion. You have €70 in your account. After fees you will get €62

It's still an acceptable resolution.

vitobotta · November 2025

Thanks all for the interesting discussion. I have created the account as an individual.

@24fire said:

@vitobotta said:
What should I do then? The provider is 24fire.de. I think their handle here is @24fire

Hi,

I received a message about this today. If you like, I'll be happy to take a look at it. However, my colleagues are quite right in saying that we do not issue refunds. This is stated in our terms and conditions, and must be accepted via a checkbox for every transaction.

We also don't just debit money from anywhere. On the contrary, we have exactly two options for customers to regularly and automatically top up their credit. Either through a standing order to our bank account or through a PayPal subscription. Both can be revoked by the customer at any time.

@layer7 said: But since its still part of it, and not your problem @vitobotta maybe you can push them a bit lovely to make an exception for you.

Well, we have made one or two exceptions in the past and waived our claims. Unfortunately, in 95% of cases, this resulted in us incurring exorbitantly higher costs than the transaction itself, or similar.

After that, we agreed within the team that we would no longer make any exceptions. I'm sorry.

Credits cannot be transferred. But I can also tell you that we have never “deleted” credits in all the years we have been operating. So (as things stand at present) they do not expire with us.

It’s not about the PayPal payments-I did go ahead and authorize those. What matters is that I still have some balance left in my account that I haven’t used. Since I’m not using the service now and don’t plan to in the future, I’d like to get that money back. It doesn’t feel fair that you keep it when I’m no longer getting anything from you. Right now, it feels like my own money is stuck hostage with you and I don't accept it.

I know your terms say you don’t give refunds for unused balances. I get that. But I’d really appreciate my money back because this just isn't fair to me as an individual consumer. And I’m not the only one who feels this way-others have said the same thing.

It's perfectly fine if you hold any fees for the refund, provided they are reasonable and understandable.

vitobotta · November 2025

BTW the ticket in which I requested a refund has been closed and now there is this red banner on my dashboard:

Dein Account ist eingeschränkt Du kannst keine weiteren Transaktionen mehr im Shop tätigen oder Guthaben aufladen. Deine aktiven Dienste werden auslaufen.

Which translated says:

Your account is restricted You can no longer make transactions in the shop or top up your balance. Your active services will expire.

Levi · November 2025

Vitto, just use service and quit at the end. Make the beat from current situation, do not leave money hanging. Even crapiest hardware and network can be used for dev.

hyperblast · November 2025

i'm going to sit back and relax... the popcorn is ready.

hennaboy · November 2025

@hyperblast said:
i'm going to sit back and relax... the popcorn is ready.

Did you bring enough for everyone?

24fire · November 2025

@vitobotta said:
BTW the ticket in which I requested a refund has been closed and now there is this red banner on my dashboard:

Dein Account ist eingeschränkt Du kannst keine weiteren Transaktionen mehr im Shop tätigen oder Guthaben aufladen. Deine aktiven Dienste werden auslaufen.

Which translated says:

Your account is restricted You can no longer make transactions in the shop or top up your balance. Your active services will expire.

I asked my colleague who processed this ticket. I now know which ticket you are referring to. In this case, we only complied with your request that no further transactions be made.

gbzret4d · November 2025

In the EU, if you cancel your contract/s, they have to refund you prepaid to them.

"you think thats fair?" - no and as i said, in the EU its forbidden. Its not a matter of choice if they refund you.

vitobotta · November 2025

@24fire said:

@vitobotta said:
BTW the ticket in which I requested a refund has been closed and now there is this red banner on my dashboard:

Dein Account ist eingeschränkt Du kannst keine weiteren Transaktionen mehr im Shop tätigen oder Guthaben aufladen. Deine aktiven Dienste werden auslaufen.

Which translated says:

Your account is restricted You can no longer make transactions in the shop or top up your balance. Your active services will expire.

I asked my colleague who processed this ticket. I now know which ticket you are referring to. In this case, we only complied with your request that no further transactions be made.

I also requested a refund, besides cancelling the automatic top up. Can I please get a refund for unused balance?

hyperblast · November 2025

@hennaboy said:

@hyperblast said:
i'm going to sit back and relax... the popcorn is ready.

Did you bring enough for everyone?

yes sir!

24fire · November 2025

@vitobotta said: I know your terms say you don’t give refunds for unused balances. I get that. But I’d really appreciate my money back because this just isn't fair to me as an individual consumer. And I’m not the only one who feels this way-others have said the same thing.

It's perfectly fine if you hold any fees for the refund, provided they are reasonable and understandable.

I cannot publicly discuss transactions from your presumed customer account here. If you wish, please contact us via ticket and I will explain the issues to you.

vitobotta · November 2025

@24fire said:

@vitobotta said: I know your terms say you don’t give refunds for unused balances. I get that. But I’d really appreciate my money back because this just isn't fair to me as an individual consumer. And I’m not the only one who feels this way-others have said the same thing.

It's perfectly fine if you hold any fees for the refund, provided they are reasonable and understandable.

I cannot publicly discuss transactions from your presumed customer account here. If you wish, please contact us via ticket and I will explain the issues to you.

My ticket has been closed. Should I open a new one?

hyperblast · November 2025

@gbzret4d said:
In the EU, if you cancel your contract/s, they have to refund you prepaid to them.

"you think thats fair?" - no and as i said, in the EU its forbidden. Its not a matter of choice if they refund you.

@24fire

gbzret4d · November 2025

@layer7 said:
Hi,

this is actually not handled like money that you have on an account ( even it might look like this ).

This is actually handled like a coupon.

By transferring money to them you essentially bought a coupon ( valid for up to 3 years -- please read their TOS that might state otherwise ). And coupons again are of course not refundable, most people will naturally assume that its not refundable.

Aside of the question if this is good behavior of the company or nice or what ever, a big problem nowadays are money laundry laws that getting, thanks to the crypto stuff, more and more heavy an a bureaucratic nightmare.

Imagine someone pays through what ever to you ( creditcard, bank, crypto, what ever ) and then 1 year later ask you to pay it out, or even a portion of it.

You would be automatically like a bank. But you are no bank, you dont have a bank license and you dont want to be a bank actually. Thats one problem.

Another problem will come up because the customer creditcard/bank/crypto/what ever might have changed already. So you wont pay back to the original funding source but paying somewhere else. Doing like this you are fully in classic money laundry.

I can fully understand that most providers will like to avoid this whole evil topic and simply define: What ever comes to us, stay with us. The only question is to proper communicate it.

The validity of the credit balance must not be limited to a certain period of time. The same applies to vouchers for which money has been paid. If the company is registered in the EU or if it serves customers within the EU, this company must also comply with applicable law. Refunds must be made in the same manner as payment was made. If payment was made by credit card, the refund must be made to the credit card. Other options may be available for a fee.

mans_xd · November 2025

welcome to German company with strict Policies to anything relate to money / cancel /auto charge

however not everyone is like this even when it get to exception

Since I see @layer7 comment, i have already in some situation when i don't forget to cancel my server with layer7 and it's get auto renew since i don't remove my debit card and that's not his fault and he explain that and refund money to my debit card not even to my credit (credit website) i don't even expect that

and another situation with layer7 with refund he refund me wrong amount money (More than server cost) and he say it's a gift

just some situation with provider make the flexibility in deal chat is easy to communicate

i have seen new or old company that require top up not to pay you bill and min is above 10€ = avoid them directly

Let this experience be a lesson for you so that you don't make the same mistake again in the future.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Prepaid hosting and deposits that can't be refunded

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Categories

In this Discussion

Prepaid hosting and deposits that can't be refunded

Comments