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[Latest DRAMA] WP Engine is banned from using WordPress.org as from September 25th - Page 10
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[Latest DRAMA] WP Engine is banned from using WordPress.org as from September 25th

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Comments

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker
    edited October 28

    Well, he's trolling bloody obviously! And he doesn't give a flying fuck about transparency and honesty; that's why he continues to ignore my question regarding himself and his funny games!

    Re. the topic itself: hell, even people from the wordpress clown's inner circle are distancing themselves from him, publicly criticize him as he went very obviously amok.

    btw, IMO one winner in that private war is people who (like me) dislike the gpl, especially versions > 2, because obviously it weighs little to nothing if you put it in large letters on your chest but not only does not really protect developers but in fact can lead to their work being stolen, abused, turned into a weapon - incl against themselves.
    "winning" because one, albeit side, effect of the clown's amok run is that developers are likely to think again about the gpl virality and the - very, very smelly - truth they get to see now.

  • lonealonea Member, Host Rep

    @egoror said: Or are you saying you think 'Xeon' or 'Ryzen' on your hosting website is a trademark violation too?

    I don't know why you keep trying to bring up Xeon or Ryzen when it's a completely different thing.

    But I'm just going to assume you are trolling at this point.

  • @lonea said: I don't know why you keep trying to bring up Xeon or Ryzen

    You will figure it out eventually, I believe in you my man.

    @lonea said: But I'm just going to assume you are trolling at this point.

    Keep me posted. Meanwhile at least read up on the topic so you don't write stuff like this anymore.

    @lonea said: and who is this "Matt" person?
    @lonea said: WPE's case is on such shaky grounds that they need to rebrand themselves as WP Engine instead of "WordPress Engine"

  • lonealonea Member, Host Rep
    edited October 28

    @egoror said:

    @lonea said: I don't know why you keep trying to bring up Xeon or Ryzen

    You will figure it out eventually, I believe in you my man.

    @lonea said: But I'm just going to assume you are trolling at this point.

    Keep me posted. Meanwhile at least read up on the topic so you don't write stuff like this anymore.

    @lonea said: and who is this "Matt" person?
    @lonea said: WPE's case is on such shaky grounds that they need to rebrand themselves as WP Engine instead of "WordPress Engine"

    Welp. let me break it down for you so it's easier for you to understand.

    If Intel or AMD ever decides to sell hosting, you can bet with your wallet that they will sue whichever company is trying to sell "Xeon Hosting" or "Ryzen Hosting"

    Is that clear enough for you, or are you still coping with losing an argument?

    But what else are you going to pivot to next? I'm waiting...

  • Ok I will add the third one to the list of your shenanigans

    [@lonea said]and who is this "Matt" person?
    [@lonea said]WPE's case is on such shaky grounds that they need to rebrand themselves as WP Engine instead of "WordPress Engine"
    @lonea said: If Intel or AMD ever decides to sell hosting, you can bet with your wallet that they will sue whichever company is trying to sell "Xeon Hosting" or "Ryzen Hosting"

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • lonealonea Member, Host Rep

    @egoror said: Ok I will add the third one to the list of your shenanigans

    >

    Coping, I see

    ;)

  • lonealonea Member, Host Rep

    @ACARROT said:
    Great 'matter-of-fact' style writeup with citations I found online if anyone isn't caught up with the drama

    https://gist.github.com/adrienne/aea9dd7ca19c8985157d9c42f7fc225d

    This timeline is the only one worth reading if you are going to read a timeline that isn't biased.

  • @lonea said: This timeline is the only one worth reading

    Hahah, which you obviously didn't read, because

    25 October 2024
    WP Engine releases a timeline of events focused on how they have been ensuring safety & continuity for their customers

    Please can you just stop embarrassing yourself, really.

  • lonealonea Member, Host Rep
    edited October 29

    @egoror said: Please can you just stop embarrassing yourself, really.

    Please can you just stop embarrassing yourself, really.

    The fact that you can't make a comment without any personal insult is hilarious. It's like you are trying to save face like what WPE is doing with their little timeline release. Laughable. ;)

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker
    edited October 29

    @egoror

    Friendly advice: stop it! That guy repeatedly simply turned what you said against you and obviously is perceiving this as a fight, he must! not lose. It's not necessary to win but to not lose, to somehow, no matter how transparent "save his face" absolutely is and he'll do everything and anything to that end.

    Plus, he obviously is not interested in a discussion, not at all. He's here simply to obtrusively tell his propaganda (he'd call "his view") and he won't accept arguments. Basically see him as a kind of bot who stubbornly spools off what's on the tape.

    You seem to be a smart guy and meaning well, so don't engage any more, just let that bot do his thing. It's like a "discussion" with an angry wife. No matter how right you are, how good your arguments are, NOTHING will reach her brain and she'll simply turn everything against you, because she's not driven by something that can be understood rationally, but by some emotional - almost certainly wrong - perception and a "mission" to not give in a single millimeter.

    This bot isn't worth your time or attention.

  • WTF. Matt is now threatening Wordpress plugin developers with stealing their plugins like he did with ACF Advanced Custom Fields if they pull their plugins from wordpress.org https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/s/vBzrry8pZD

    Two days after we closed the Paid Memberships Pro listing in the .org repository, Matt sent a direct message to me (Jason) on the WordPress.org Slack Workspace threatening to “take over your listing and make it a community plugin like we did to ACF”.

    Thanked by 2egoror jsg
  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    @eva2000 said:
    WTF. Matt is now threatening Wordpress plugin developers with stealing their plugins like he did with ACF Advanced Custom Fields if they pull their plugins from wordpress.org https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/s/vBzrry8pZD

    Two days after we closed the Paid Memberships Pro listing in the .org repository, Matt sent a direct message to me (Jason) on the WordPress.org Slack Workspace threatening to “take over your listing and make it a community plugin like we did to ACF”.

    Anyone surprised? Really?

    The amok run of the clown will be stopped - and possibly himself as well - in one way or another, rather sooner than later.

    Thanked by 1eva2000
  • I think it's time for legal review if plugins are really a 'derivative work' and have to be GPL, because so far WordPress reasoning for it is "trust us bro". If at least some part of plugins can be moved out of GPL (e.g. assets, css, js) developer can always make forceful forks illegal or difficult.

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • @eva2000 said:
    WTF. Matt is now threatening Wordpress plugin developers with stealing their plugins like he did with ACF Advanced Custom Fields if they pull their plugins from wordpress.org https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/s/vBzrry8pZD

    Two days after we closed the Paid Memberships Pro listing in the .org repository, Matt sent a direct message to me (Jason) on the WordPress.org Slack Workspace threatening to “take over your listing and make it a community plugin like we did to ACF”.

    Is this not perfectly legal or is the plugin not gpl?

  • MadMad Member
    edited October 31

    Matt is going crazy, someone needs to stop him. Did he seriously write this?

    We have lots of useful things to do with our funds; sending it to your masturbatory governance and repository work that won't benefit users at all is a waste.

    https://x.com/WordPress/status/1851891421881782329

    and still:

    WP Engine is free to offer their hacked up, bastardized simulacra of WordPress’s GPL code to their customers, and they can experience WordPress as WP Engine envisions it, with them getting all of the profits and providing all of the services.

    https://wordpress.org/news/2024/09/wp-engine-banned/

  • @egoror said:
    I think it's time for legal review if plugins are really a 'derivative work' and have to be GPL, because so far WordPress reasoning for it is "trust us bro". If at least some part of plugins can be moved out of GPL (e.g. assets, css, js) developer can always make forceful forks illegal or difficult.

    Nothing magically makes plugins GPL; it's just that they have to be GPL if you want them listed in the .org directory. There are plenty of commercially licensed plugins out there.

  • @ahnlak said: if you want them listed in the .org directory

    Most of them are GPL and some are jumping hoops with parts being GPL. GPL != can't be sold for money.

  • @TimboJones said:

    @eva2000 said:
    WTF. Matt is now threatening Wordpress plugin developers with stealing their plugins like he did with ACF Advanced Custom Fields if they pull their plugins from wordpress.org https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/s/vBzrry8pZD

    Two days after we closed the Paid Memberships Pro listing in the .org repository, Matt sent a direct message to me (Jason) on the WordPress.org Slack Workspace threatening to “take over your listing and make it a community plugin like we did to ACF”.

    Is this not perfectly legal or is the plugin not gpl?

    Yes, it's legal. It's GPL code, and it's his directory so he can do anything he likes with it.

    However, it's toxic and makes it increasingly unappealing to contribute anything, unless you're cool with Matt just deciding to forcibly take control and apply his own supply chain attacks.

    Thanked by 1TimboJones
  • @egoror said:

    @ahnlak said: if you want them listed in the .org directory

    Most of them are GPL and some are jumping hoops with parts being GPL. GPL != can't be sold for money.

    I never said that; I said there are plenty of plugins outside of GPL, but because of .org's ToS you can't (without hoop jumping) host them there.

    (I realise that "commercially licensed" may not have made it clear that I meant "licensed in non-GPL ways)

  • @ahnlak said: but because of .org's ToS

    They have to be GPL not because of .org tos, but because plugins and themes are considered a derivative work of WordPress.

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • @egoror said:

    @ahnlak said: but because of .org's ToS

    They have to be GPL not because of .org tos, but because plugins and themes are considered a derivative work of WordPress.

    That is not how GPL works; plugins and themes don't include any WordPress code and don't come close to passing any sort of 'derivative' test. And literally the first requirement listed on .org for them listing your plugin / theme is "Your plugin must be compatible with GPL".

    GPL has plenty of issues, but the idea that it's so virulent that it infects plugins that interact with GPL code is simply wrong.

  • @ahnlak said: That is not how GPL works; plugins and themes don't include any WordPress code

    Please read up on the topic.

  • ahnlakahnlak Member
    edited October 31

    @egoror said:

    @ahnlak said: That is not how GPL works; plugins and themes don't include any WordPress code

    Please read up on the topic.

    I've been familiar with the topic for literally decades, and I know what WP / Matt assert.

    I'm a developer, not a lawyer, but it requires a very interesting interpretation of the GPL, and not one I'd expect to do well in a court.

    Given that this started with you questioning .org's traditional claim that they're derivative works, I'm curious why you're arguing against yourself :wink:

  • egororegoror Member
    edited October 31

    @ahnlak said: I've been familiar with the topic for literally decades, and I know what WP / Matt assert.

    It's a position supported by the FSF, not just Matt.

    @ahnlak said: this started with you questioning .org's traditional claim

    I said it was never legally tested and it's about time for review, because GPL is obviously used for forceful takeovers now.

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • @egoror said:

    @ahnlak said: I've been familiar with the topic for literally decades, and I know what WP / Matt assert.

    It's a position supported by the FSF, not just Matt.

    The FSF has some ... strange ideas. Matt has been careful to ask the "right" lawyers to back up his rather over-reaching reading of the GPL.

    @egoror said:

    @ahnlak said: this started with you questioning .org's traditional claim

    I said it was never legally tested and it's about time for review, because GPL is obviously used for forceful takeovers now.

    Again, you're missing the point. .org is taking over plugins that are in their directory, and it's a condition of being in that directory that you have to be GPL. Even if a review (correctly, in my view) concluded that the GPL wasn't that infectious, .org can still demand anything listed with them is GPL.

    It doesn't solve the problem.

  • @ahnlak said: and it's a condition of being in that directory that you have to be GPL

    No, it's a condition of GPL license. Guy who was threatened actually pulled his plugin out of .org directory days prior the threat.
    Overall if you do not release your plugin code under GPL there are way more possible complications than just inability to use .org directory. I will cite:

    Your plugin will never be allowed on wordpress.org
    Other marketplaces will probably not host you
    Other plugin businesses in the WP ecosystem will not want to do business with you, limiting your ability to promote and cross-sell
    Applications to speak or volunteer at official WordPress conferences will be blocked
    Sponsoring official WordPress events will be impossible
    Many prominent community members will see it as a hostile and unnecessary step
    Many large agencies will avoid your product
    Larger enterprise businesses will have compliance issues around this
    Some hosts may refuse to allow your code
    Many will consider it a sign of shady practices
    Some businesses that have made a point of not using GPL compatible licenses have had... not so pleasant interactions with the BDFL

    @ahnlak said: .org can still demand anything listed with them is GPL

    On this I agree.

  • jsgjsg Member, Resident Benchmarker

    Maybe it's about time to call wordpress a mental asylum also officially, de facto it obviously already is.

    Thanked by 1ahnlak
  • @egoror said:

    @ahnlak said: and it's a condition of being in that directory that you have to be GPL

    No, it's a condition of GPL license. Guy who was threatened actually pulled his plugin out of .org directory days prior the threat.
    Overall if you do not release your plugin code under GPL there are way more possible complications than just inability to use .org directory. I will cite:

    Your plugin will never be allowed on wordpress.org
    Other marketplaces will probably not host you
    Other plugin businesses in the WP ecosystem will not want to do business with you, limiting your ability to promote and cross-sell
    Applications to speak or volunteer at official WordPress conferences will be blocked
    Sponsoring official WordPress events will be impossible
    Many prominent community members will see it as a hostile and unnecessary step
    Many large agencies will avoid your product
    Larger enterprise businesses will have compliance issues around this
    Some hosts may refuse to allow your code
    Many will consider it a sign of shady practices
    Some businesses that have made a point of not using GPL compatible licenses have had... not so pleasant interactions with the BDFL

    That is just a bunch of FUD you pulled off a 15 year old post on StackOverflow (or someone else did and you just cited them).

    All of that is "ooh bad things might happen", mostly about Matt enterprises exacting revenge on you. None of it has anything to do with the actual license.

    But at stage it's probably better to agree to differ :smile:

  • egororegoror Member
    edited October 31

    @ahnlak said: That is just a bunch of FUD you pulled off a 15 year old post

    It's not FUD, the story is all around the internet, I've simply picked the top google result. You can try making WP plugin that's not GPL and tell us what happens and how are the sales going.

    @ahnlak said: All of that is "ooh bad things might happen", mostly about Matt enterprises exacting revenge on you.

    Not only Matt, FSF too. "WP themes and plugins are derivative work" is fully backed by FSF and Software Freedom Law Center. But there are exclusions. Assets and styles shouldn't be. So what we need is a legal solution for adhering to WP GPL while keeping enough of the app under other license to not let forceful takeovers. Also would be nice to get a real court test of "derivative work" claim.

    Thanked by 1jsg
  • @ahnlak said: None of it has anything to do with the actual license.

    It actually is because GPL license is what's allowing Matt to execute a perfectly legal revenge on you and make other people/orgs ignore you

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