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Telegram founder Pavel Durov Arrested
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Thanks for not picking sides and instead just telling people to stick to the topic @DP
As suspected by @angstrom, me & more, the issue is the refusal to cooperate.
I’m more interested in why exactly Telegram isn’t E2EE? Seems to me like they’re trying to get these kind of issues if they have the capability to help but don’t do so.
The press release is now up (in French and English): https://www.tribunal-de-paris.justice.fr/sites/default/files/2024-08/2024-08-26 - CP TELEGRAM .pdf
Telegram Info English has also posted a response to it:
He's correct though. Canada massively overreached it's authority, and our government's response to it was "sorry we broke the law, we're going to change the law so next time we didn't break it". Yes. O'Canada.
Theres a ton of opinionated articles on it, depending what side of the coin you want to read (left or right), CTV here for example. The government's version (here) exists and they're appealing/have appealed.
Nevertheless, our courts found it simple:
For the lazy ones, here's our charter. Tldr: freedom of movement, speech, etc. and unresonable search and seizure violated.
Talk about a "free" country, don't look on our side of the border.
Standard police bullshit. When someone in Russia is arrested, the police usually claim to be:
1) resisting a representative of authority (the most popular)
2) insulting a government representative
3) involved in an undesirable organization
4) something else
During the investigation, you will be asked to declare your guilt. In this case, the police will reduce the charges, or you can try to defend yourself.
Happily, I am, myself, do not have experience with French police, but I have watched many French movies about their police practices and found that it is very similar to Russian police methods.
Durov is not a poor man, and perhaps lawyers will help him. Although the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn (ex-candidate of France president) suggests that vaunted Western democratic justice may fail in special cases where someone really needs it.
It is first time case when visioner was arrested like a crime migrant from Somalia. That all show that arrest used in political fight not as ordinary crime investigation and this confirm that Macron is liar.
The West mass media silence about this bad case. You can find some article may be on 8-10 page of media but you not find anything on first page. With one milliard users over in this the world social network that look strange is not be?
I can't really comment on the rest of your post, I think most of it is opinion / speculation, but this one is not quite true:
There's mention of it on the first page of the print version of today's edition of Le Monde (only newspaper of which I have access to the front page). There's several articles on their website. Same for the websites of most French media I checked. Same for the Guardian (UK).
Le Monde has an editorial that can be read in English (and I believe for free too): https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2024/08/26/telegram-affair-poses-a-test-for-the-european-union_6721809_23.html
(Apologies, I mostly read Le Monde when it comes to French newspaper).
Now in France at least there are some more "important" news that interest more people, like Macron trying to find a Prime minister, the war in Gaza, the war in Ukraine/Russia. Edit: also, not so many people use Telegram in France, we are a Whatsapp country.
@rustelekom I just went to CNN, top is some US election stuff and then there’s a story on who Pavel is right under it
Have you actually looked yourself?
On BBC it’s the SECOND story from top
Maybe they read this topic and corrected their editorial plan:) In fact, I think they were just following the ban from the editorial offices to write about it. France promised to publish the claims only on August 26, so they had to wait.
That gives some hope that this case won't be left alone.
Also, I heard that the UAE has already contacted France for more details on this matter (Durov has a UAE citizenship). He also has Russian citizenship but because the EU and France is at war with Russia, it is almost pointless to contact them about legal issues.
PS. I heard that the Rumble owner left the EU as soon as he heard about Durov's arrest.
BTW. the number of downloads of the Telegram application has increased significantly in the last two days.
BTW. Do you know how Durov got france honorary citizenship? I heard that Durov received honorary citizenship from Macron himself for outstanding achievements in the glory of France (i don't review details in deep but his citizenship was especial).
No, because law enforcement agencies can bypass Apple to get the information they want using help from third parties (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple–FBI_encryption_dispute#FBI_withdrawal_of_request) or tools such as Cellebrite.
It's difficult to get the information they want from Telegram when Telegram is the only source of that information, versus when it's on hardware like an iPhone.
what exactly stops the glowies from unlocking a phone and opening the telegram app…?
When they don't know who the user is. Assuming the user didn't mess up their OPSEC in other areas, they would have to go through Telegram before they could even get access to the user's phone.
However, in most cases, knowing the user's identity is enough evidence. They would still have to get that info from Telegram though.
if the feds get you for terrorism related stuff you are fucked, otherwise they would avoid doing anything illegal to get proof as it would be bad for them in court
@TimboJones You are crossing a line. Last warning before action has to be taken, please be polite
No but I'm curious as well. As far as i know there isn’t a "golden passport" system in France. There's something fishy there and the articles i have read on the subject were saying it’s strange. I think a few journalists are looking into this as we speak.
I also wondered about this (how Durov obtained French citizenship) in a comment that I made in the corresponding thread on OGF
I tend to doubt that it was because of "outstanding achievements in the glory of France" unless Telegram counted as an outstanding achievement in the glory of France (which it surely didn't)
My best guess would be that Durov made a substantial financial investment in France, which he surely had the financial means to do
(But who knows)
Oh, so your source of information is movies. That explains a lot.
No one has the power to ban the news in free countries like France. Only countries like Russia do this.
You are putting way too much into this because this is a standard procedure. All countries do this when one of their citizens gets arrested to ensure they receive a fair trial and legal support.
More lies.
I can guarantee you that you wouldn’t be able to write this if Russia were at war with NATO.
Russia is at war with Ukraine, and just as Russia receives weapons and ammunition from Iran and North Korea, weapon parts from China, and financial support from India, Ukraine receives weapons, ammunition, financial support, and training from the West.
The main difference is that Russia is fighting with its "modern" weapons, including long-range missiles, while Ukraine is mostly being supplied with older weapons (except missile defense systems) and has been restricted from using them in Russia. We still have the option to remove all restrictions, provide Ukraine with modern weapons, and supply long-range missiles. And you will still only be at war with Ukraine, not NATO.
Stop this endless stream of disinformation. Other Russians are embarrassed by how stupid you make them look.
In the Western democracies we have things we like to call "due process", "the rule of law" and "fair trials'", where the accused will have the opportunity to see and challenge the evidence against them. People don't just get locked up for criticism of the authorities, no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise.
Obviously these can be confusing concepts for those living in Authoritarian states where you might be jailed, poisoned or thrown out of a window for saying things the authorities don't like, (such as calling a war of aggression a "war" rather than using euphemisms like "Special Military Operation" etc), but it can also be hard to get an objective view of the Western legal system when Western criminals claim to be victims of "political prosecutions" and squeal about "Free Speech", (some examples of this would be the notorious British/American rapist Andrew Tate in Romania or former President Trump in the US).
However, what I'm finding especially funny about this situation is how people who don't enjoy Freedom of Expression, (as defined under Article 10 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), are now trying to reframe the sharing of Child Sexual Abuse Material and other toxic material as "Free Speech", whilst simultaneously declaring the West as a fallen empire full of pedophilles and moral corruption.
The ECHR, of which the Russian Federation was a member until September 2022, clearly defines the rights to Freedom of Expression and the limits applied in order to protect societies from harmful material, such as CSAM and other things that were being, (and still are being), freely distributed on Telegram: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/human-rights/human-rights-act/article-10-freedom-expression
The crux of the matter is, Durov is a French citizen who is accused of breaking French law and was arrested in France after choosing to travel to France of his own free will. People drawn to conspiracies may want to think there's more to this case, but he's accused of breaking the law of the country of his citizenship, and there's no doubt he will receive a fair trial and punishment if convicted.
Probably one of those golden visa scenarios. I don't agree with dual citizenship's, but that's just me. Let's say you are a citizen of 2 countries and they go to war, on who's side are you, and will either side trust you?
That's also how his UAE citizenship works. It's how most people with too much money obtain eight citizenships just in case.
France has a special residence program for tech professionals, including investors. A tech job or an investment as small as €300,000 is enough to obtain a residency permit that includes a work permit, among other benefits.
It’s not citizenship, but it makes the process of obtaining one much easier.
My guess is that he acquired his citizenship either through this method or through an investment in overseas France.
Against the background of Durov's fascinating adventures in France, Zuckerberg and/or his representatives also decided to defend the owners of social networks and other internet services:
But to get the citizenship once you have the residency permit, you need to actually reside in the country for a number of years before you can start the process to become a citizen, and I am confident this guy did not reside in France.
There is a whole article on Le Monde website, which can also be read in English, but it's behind a paywall. In it, I read that this special way of getting the French citizenship is quite opaque and extremely rare (or at least that it should be rare). But Evan Spiegel (Snapchat) apparently benefited from it as well to get the French passport in 2019.
The article (english version): https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/06/26/the-telegram-founder-s-mysterious-french-passport_6037748_7.html
This all looks quite fishy to me, maybe it's a discreet way of bypassing the fact that France does not have a "golden passport" scheme for investors. I'm speculating but I suspect we are going to "discover" than many rich people got the citizenship that way, and that it's going to be another scandal.
@elite0128 Enjoy your severe warning, next remarks like that gets you a ban.
Yes, it definitely looks fishy, but at the same time, across the world, wealthy people have citizenship options that ordinary people don't have (unfortunately)
What is disappointing is that the question how Durov obtained French citizenship seems clouded in mystery when (in a state of law) it really shouldn't be
investment visas are perfectly normal smh
Well, the authorities are most likely not allowed to share this kind of personal data (due to GDPR), so unless Durov reveals it himself or it gets leaked, we may never know.
You're right, fair enough, perhaps this is even a point in favor of France
Nevertheless, for transparency, it would be good to know (in a general way) what the path to French citizenship was for Durov. My bet would still be on a significant financial investment of some kind
at least we know cooperating with the french feds wasnt part of the citizenship deal
We can't underestimate how stupid was the Digital Service Act when it was designed. It stands as proof of a behavior clearly antidemocratic and anti-liberal. Now we see it in action as the world burns (literally burns in wars).
The solution to everything is communication, but our positive woke leaders of our planet might have forgotten the lessons of humanity's past. Hopefully the moderation here understands the importance of free speech and ensures moderation in a very soft way, while not getting arrested for refusing to police this forum.
Indeed,
which is probably a good sign in some sense