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RIPE Consultation
Hello,
I am in case where I need some help from experienced RIPE users (LIRs). I am willing to pay if you think you can help me out.
I have questions regarding:
- Sponsoring LIR
- Multiple LIR
- Transfer
- Transfer by Merger
I spent around 4 hours on RIPE's website but since I am not a native English speaker I don't think I understand all details since I am very confused right now.
Thank you.
Comments
@William
@Andreix from Hetnix
Thank you for recommending us, but I personally do not have the extra time needed for this.
Let's start with what you wish to do.
I'm a RIPE LIR, but as @leapswitch wrote, let's start with what you wish to do (although I'm thinking you want to have multiple accounts to get your hands on IPv4 and then merge/transfer into one LIR).
Needed for PI and Legacy ressources if you are not LIR, you pay a fixed fee to him (ranges from 50-500EUR/yr) to him, he pays 50EUR per object (yes, that includes a /16 in cases) to RIPE/yr. Can be sold and transferred pretty easy.
ASNs are also PI ressources but do not incur yearly or registration fees.
Multiple companies or multi LIR, it is atm pretty straightforward.
Depends on exact case but for PI/older IP space simple with some forms to RIPE, new space company mergers in ways but it is limited.
Generally recommendation is to open N companies and then N LIRs and just merge them in some years when the window comes up by vote or similar.
Nice try, not easy for new space. PI and old space simple.
What's the point of this? Less fees? (I know next to nothing about all this, sorry if it's a trivial question).
Even though I'm not an expert either, if I had to guess I would say the point is to get IPv4.
Yes, but I was wondering about the "merge" part.
Not even LIR, they rent their Ips from ip.ro
We recently became a RIPE LIR to faciliate expansion into Europe.
Like the others above, I'll assume that you're looking to acquire as much IPv4 space as possible by registering multiple LIRs and then consolidating them to a single LIR at a later date.
Not a great idea.
I'm not aware of any restrictions that explicitly prohibit what you're trying to do, but the whole process would be prohibitively expensive and laborious.
RIPE charges a 2000EUR one-time fee for all new LIRs. On top of that, all LIRs must pay a 1400EUR membership fee annually. You get charged for the first quarter of the membership fee upfront -- your first bill is for 2350EUR.
RIPE will go through all the rigors of verifying that you are a legitimate and properly registered company. So that means for each LIR you will also need a properly register a new company.
If your company is brand new with no AS number and no registration on the other registries (e.g., ARIN, APNIC, etc), then they could easily ask for additional documentation (e.g., copies IP transit contracts) that proves you are an ISP (ARIN does this).
The whole process can easily take a month or longer for a single LIR.
Even after all that, assuming everything goes smoothly, RIPE will only assign new LIRs a /22.
That's not correct. Process takes around 7 days and RIPE barely verifies any documents nor ASN and other registries.
It's fairly easy to sign up to RIPE and obtain /22 as long as you send the funds. No much hassle.
@BrianHarrison -
Let's say you lease the subnets at 0.2per IP ~ a little over 50 euros. 4x / 24 each 50 per month = 200 per month = 2400 euros per year. So in 2 years (After paying second year fee), you will most likely return your initial investment, or sooner - if you charge higher pricing. Considering IPv4 pricing goes up, it's a nice investment. Considering that RIPE handles the IPs rather easy. Company registration is not a problem as well.
Stuff are different and much better looking once you merge your accounts. Not sure if it's still possible and what is the wait time (from new assignment to permition for merge). @William can possibly shed more light.
It's physically impossible to do that, but I'm sure he can shed light.
Sorry about that. Bad English and it's nearly 2AM over here. Did not even notice.
Thanks for all related and unrelated responses.
@William
1- Sponsoring LIR
My question is more about collecting different PAs under one LIR account. As I mentioned I am a LIR already but I am wondering if I can be "the sponsoring LIR" for the existing LIRs who have already assigned PAs. Would this save the other LIR from paying 1400€/year?
2- Multiple LIRs
Seems that way but is it allowed to get like 10 accounts under same company name as long as you agree to pay sign-up fee and any recurring fees for 24 months?
3- Transfer
I was more interested in to know how long does it takes (transfer period for PAs completed 24 months already), anything extra required, etc.
4- Transfer by Merger
It's not a try. We are in a case where we actually takeover a company's whole IT infrastructure and clients but there has been no change in other company's business structure as this was a partial portfolio acquisition only. RIPE refuses to accept this as there is no governmental legal paper to confirm this and local governmental agency refuses to deliver us any legal paper related to this transaction as it was a private contract between 2 LTD companies.
I hope that explains.
Nothing to be sorry about
So technically there's no merger and they're right. To merge means that you'll have a single new legal entity at the end, which - if I read correctly - isn't the situation you're in. You did an acquisition - which is different.
Well there might be a "word" confusion over here. RIPE handles mergers and acquisition unders same policy.
The reason why I called this merger basically by taking over their whole portfolio includes everything. Their existing clients are being billed under our company right now so this legal entity change for the portfolio but not for the company's itself.
This is really complicated.
Have you registered a LIR? 7 days is very optimistic.
7 days would assume that 1. you don't need to ask the RIPE staff any questions (their email turnaround time is typically a full 24 hours), 2. you have all the necessary documentation prepared and registrations in order, 3. RIPE staff deem your documentation sufficient and have no follow-up questions 4. RIPE staff make no mistakes (in our case, they recorded our address incorrectly a couple times) and 5. you live somewhere relatively close to RIPE (there are physical documents to be signed and counter-signed). That's just to register a LIR. The IPv4 allocation is another request which takes a day or two for them to process.
My "month or longer" estimate also assumed that the OP was planning to register a new company for each LIR. From OPs follow up posts, it looks like that's not the case.
No, you could send them nearly anything. RIPE cannot verify a company exists.
No, RIPE does not do this for IP space.
No, barely 2 weeks at most, even now around christmas.
No, all old LIRs can get one last /8 /22 as well - where the hell do you get your info from?
24 months.
PA is not PI. It has no sponsoring LIR, it belongs to a LIR. Thus no. What you try is a backdoor merge of 185 space and RIPE is not stupid. Non 185 space can be moved very easily to another LIR, but is also PA there then.
PI, in most cases, can be converted to PA as can legacy if moved into or originally out of RIPE region.
Sure.
Few days. Documentation requirements vary.
Yes. Bad luck. No way to change this as this was majorly abused for fake mergers, you have no way to get this anymore without waiting. Basically: What RIPE says is the way it is, no legal recourse.
It is not, you merge into a single company and wait 24 months, then get it into one LIR - what's the issue? You can't force any other way and this is member voted.
I never get asked any, i just add my justification to the "order" and pay by CC. Takes less than 7d always, especially if you have the LIR contract already prepared (same always anyway). Having an existing LIR also speeds up.
And? This does not matter, change the ORG yourself or change data in the LIR portal...? RIPE is fully self service.
Wtf? They use DHL/Fedex, i've had documents shipped RIPE<->HK<->RIPE in less than 4d, my Fedex crap from CA takes 2 to EU... shipping time for especially mail sized things is near ZERO.
Further you can circumvent this in EU partly - electronic signing.
...? I register a UK Ltd without VAT ID in about 3 hours, one with VAT ID in about a day... and i use a random only broker for that as non UK resident....
Not in our experience. RIPE took steps to verify our company registration and sought clarification on the documentation. We went through the process just weeks ago.
Do you have experience sending RIPE bogus documentation or something that would qualify, as you say, "nearly anything"?
Two weeks is far more doable. One week is not reasonable. My original estimate assumed that the OP intended to register an entirely new company as well as completing the LIR registration and IPv4 allocation request.
You need to read more carefully. I stated that new LIRs may only get a /22. I made no comment about old LIRs.
"Having an existing LIR also speeds up." Exactly. You're an established member with many prior transactions. You're not going to face the same level of scrutiny as a brand new member.
As a new member you do not have access to the self-service portal until your login becomes associated with a registered LIR. We ran into this scenario ourselves. We attempted to correct a RIPE mistake through the portal and were unable to. Would you like me to quote a RIPE representative explaining this?
My point was simple. Mistakes on RIPE's end can easily create delays that make a 7 day turnaround time for LIR registration very optimistic.
Whether it takes 2 days, 3 days or 4 days -- that's exactly my point. Apollo15 claimed that LIR registration was a 7 day process. I countered that was very optimistic. A 4 day turnaround on signing documents leaves 3 days for the remainder of the process.
During our new LIR registration, we were not presented with an electronic registration option.
You seem to enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. I think I'm done here.
no I'm not... I'm just saying crap
lol just kidding, of course I am. If you pay with CC / Paypal and don't ask them silly questions you can read on their site it will be done in 7 days.
I had cases where it took around 4 days to get everything done (starting from Monday) and other cases where it took around 2 weeks. I think it's more about the staff who takes care of your application and the amount of the application they got in specific timeframe.
Well I'm jealous then
It took us a little over two weeks to get it done -- mainly because RIPE recorded our address incorrectly and the error was replicated on to the physical documents they sent out.
is arguing fun?