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I haven't tested it as I'm not using 12.10, however it's as simple as...
Please provide me with 3 Amazon advertisements that were not engineered to persuade people to buy.
Oh yes, of course, the usual "you are impossible to discuss with" excuse to not to have to defend your point. Despite only having read one post, and noone pressuring you to write a response in a certain timeframe. Seems to be employed by people quite a lot when they are confronted with something they don't like. Refer again to 'cognitive dissonance' (specific to this discussion) and fallacies in general, plus the reasons people employ them. All this is pretty well documented.
On that topic, you may want to look into research regarding advertising and its psychological effects - you'll find that it essentially says the same as above. In other words - I'm not quite sure how you think my 'warped view of markets excludes many realities in exchange for fantasies'.
Nice how you completely ignored half the point there, and didn't even quote it. Really makes your counterargument shine.
And yes, I tend to get sarcastic when people try to blame others or use fallacies or otherwise unfit 'discussion techniques'.
Easy there Britney. You are impossible to converse with on matters which you are passionate about. It's "agree with me or read 15 paragraphs about why I think you're an idiot" with you (it's not like I'm new here, I know how you are). It's all good, I'm just not doing it. I'm here for light conversation, I do have 3 jobs you know. Just have to pass the time while running Windows Update on a T1.
Appreciate your input, disagree with you greatly, and I'm sorry if it offends you but I'm not debating you here.
@joepie91 you seem to be against all forms of advertisements. But do you think the internet could exist (in it's current form) without ads?
Of course I am, yet you have still not address the actual points I made.
Oh, really? Did I say anywhere in my post that you are an idiot for disagreeing with me, or anything even resembling that? No, I didn't - I complained about you avoiding and ignoring half my post, and asked you to provide me with 3 advertisements.
If you are here for light conversation, then don't start an argument. I never initially responded to you in the first place.
I am against all forms of persuasion for personal gain - and that appears to include 99% of advertisements.
Yes, I don't see why not. Additionally, this is a very good read on the subject of internet advertising.Yes, I don't see why not, assuming you are refering to the current kind of services and not literally its current state (since that would include advertising). Additionally, this is a very good read on the subject of internet advertising.
Without advertising there would be no Google. Or Facebook. Or Github. Or online news. Or [insert any random site].
I'm just responding now for the fun of it. Why do I need to address the points you made? I barely even read them. Does that make you mad?
Yeah, because I disagreed with the premise. Your premise was nullified by the introduction of an alternate reason, followed by my challenge to present figures (which you cannot) as to which intent represents the majority. You can't, therefore you are just mad that I disagree with you on a matter that is purely based in opinion. Amazon is too small of a sample size to make any sweeping statements on either side of this matter, or do you not subscribe to basic logic?
I support ads in Ubuntu. You're the one who wants to talk life and philosophy about it. Calm down and get some ritalin. You might consider prescription drugs a crime, I consider your clear lack of them to be a crime.
Windows update is still running, give me another 10 paragraphs to not read...
Joe, we usually agree but this time I dont.
The reason for ads is not always to make ppl buy what they wouldnt otherwise.
For example, if I advertise food like bread, or clothes, fine, ppl might choose another brand, but this does not mean they will not buy in general.
For example let grew ads for VPSes. Most ppl are here because they buy and use VPSes one way or another, there are even ads fro free VPSes.
I cant say these ads make me buy anything, I am just ad blind, had to read here there are ads on let, but I can say any relevant ad (about VPSes) here will not make us buy what we dont buy in general, but make us read more offers and we are here at least in part for this purpose, who knows, maybe some will even get a good deal or at least get to know the market better by reading some pages linked by those ads...
M
And you can say that with any kind of certainty... how?
Who is going to pay for the servers? All the sites we use on a daily basis for free employ millions of people and pay billions for software and hardware. Where should the money to pay for all of that come from?
You make bread, trade bread to upstream provider. Ignore that bread becomes money and soon you'll have to yell (advertise) to explain why your bread is better than someone else's. You don't understand, you haven't been to college.
(I'm bored, clearly)
Well, I think this says enough about your intentions.
First off, you did not challenge me to present figures - you straight out stated I would not be able to provide them. Second off, why would majority figures even be relevant if the topic of discussion is Amazon ads, and not an ad in the local newspaper placed by the local farmer?
And you support them why?
I propose you stop being a massive asshole, there is absolutely zero reason to make statements like that.
The reason for ads is not always to make ppl buy what they wouldnt otherwise.
For example, if I advertise food like bread, or clothes, fine, ppl might choose another brand, but this does not mean they will not buy in general.
The context here is Amazon advertising. I am refering to persuasive advertising, which happens to not only be what Amazon is doing, but also exactly the kind of advertising that is described on the Wikipedia page that I linked.
That does not exclude the ads being persuasive - they are intended to convince you to buy from them instead of someone else. If they weren't, then a simple text-based listing of providers and specs would be sufficient. As for the free VPS ads - these are typically supported by an (endorsement) link on the site hosted on said VPS, which in itself is an attempt to convince you to buy a VPS from that provider because someone else 'endorses' it (or, in some cases, because the provider seems to look nice for offering a free VPS). All of this is persuasive advertising.
I think that everyone on IRC that frequently goes "must.. not.. buy... another... VPS...", as well as the VPS hoarders, would disagree with you. Hell, there was even a whole thread of people talking about how they had to cut down on VPSes because they got too many VPSes they don't need, and about how they had bought VPSes because of some form of advertising.
M
I'm not here to get advertising or offers thrown at me. I'm here for the community and the knowledge.
EDIT:
You are presenting the situation as if the only possible options are paid services and ad-supported services. That is incorrect. Consider donations, or have a look at Kickstarter. Those are only two possible methods to keep servers running, I have no doubt there are probably many more.
Additionally, I may respond slowly or accidentally doublepost, my internet is being very slow because of severe packetloss issues.
See here is where you make the mistake. Normally I wouldn't go this far, but you're keeping me awake here, so sit down and listen.
You cannot provide them because there is no reliable method of judging the intent behind every advertisement in the world. This is both a challenge and a road block which breaks your sweeping statement declared as fact to be, in fact, an opinion which has no basis beyond your personal experience.
We aren't discussing Amazon ads. You changed the topic to all advertisements everywhere, and then you wanted to limit the discussion back to Amazon ads in order to provide evidence that your statements were factual and not grounded purely in opinion based on personal experience. I choose not to allow that limitation because no matter the outcome of isolating this sample, that outcome cannot be applied to your generic and all encompassing statement that was previously nullified by the injection of an alternate intention to what you claimed can only hold one intention. This is your attempt to play on words and gradually shift discussions so that you can be "right" on a matter in which there is no "right" or "wrong." A rookie might fall for this, not me.
You did not exclude the local farmer in your original statement, nor did I in my response. If you are the intellectual that you believe you are and only make factual statements that are above disagreement, you made several logical errors and should be well aware of it.
Your constant need to passionately and angrily defend your opinions as facts while constantly escalating until the other side says "Look, I have to sleep, I'm human" followed by your typical response of "See! If you were right you'd have all the time in the world to go in circles with me until I agreed with you which I won't because I'm right about everything" (aka baiting people into arguments) absolutely justifies my statements. You need to calm down. Us grown ups have opinions too, and not all the time in the world to discuss them with you. We won't shut up just because you're opinionated and don't know when to close your mouth.
Thanks for the fun @joepie91
i think we should derail this
Yeah i don't think multi-billion dollar companies are going to rely on 'donations' to pay their employees, servers and shareholders.
Ppl who dont like it will switch to debian or make CUbuntu, Community Ubuntu or "ad uninstaller" to make it "normal" again.
I really think this is disasterous decision by canonical, will only make bad publicity without much revenue.
This still doesnt mean I agree with Joe, but he is in part right.
M
Exactly, this is why Canonical will not make money, just bad publicity.
By debating the issue here we make enough noise to maybe make them change their mind or make others that plan a similar move aware of the consequences.
M
Or it creates a loop where the income has to be used to hire forum moderators, and then the ads are needed to pay for the forum moderators.
Oh, feel free to quote where I said 'all advertisements'. I even explicitly linked a Wikipedia article (which talks about persuasive advertising) to define context. So much for that point.
If you are the intellectual you think you are, as opposed to a 'rookie' (lol what?), you would know that what you just attempted to point out is not a logic error, but a data or context error (I can't see how my alleged claim to encompass all advertisements, has anything to do with logic). As such, I am waiting for you to point out the alleged 'several logical errors' that I made.
Please do quote where I said that - and I'd like to add that I have no reason to criticize someones evasive behaviour if that evasive behaviour doesn't exist in the first place. I do actually frequently have discussions with people that do make an effort to respond to things, and you won't see me accusing them of evading points or questions. The issue is entirely on your side here.
Oh, and now you're trying to belittle me. Really? If you claim to be a 'grown up', then how about you start acting like one?
Unity sucks, GNOME Classic for the win!
I guess it's time I finally ask someone...what don't you like about it? In my opinion, most attractive desktop around.
I guess I am too old...
M
Partly old habbits I guess. I love the classic GNOME look across Linux, looks great and it's nice and simple.
Unity most attractive desktop? Come on.. The new menu to be too big and full of crap, don't like the animations, and side bar is annoying to use. It's looks a lot better on a netbook where you have a much smaller screen.
I find it's the most attractive Linux desktop environment I have used, to the point I actually like using Unity-2D for RDC/NX. Gnome for the better part of 10 years was the same as it was in RedHat 5.2 back in '99/2000.
I thing we should thank the desktop environment developer not only Ubuntu dev team
canonical is another Google, they'll put ads anywhere
I think it depends on the application of the advertisements. I really like adverts that are, open, related, and non-destructive. I hate adverts that are secretive and very destructive.
I really like:
1. The LET ones as I have come to know of hosts I didn't through them. I also like that you can tell in the URL where they are going to take you.
2. The Mibbit ones a great example of where they are positioned, always in view, clearly noticeable, but they don't feel in the way. Plus, I tend to see games etc of interest.
3. The main YouTube banner spread. Massive, prime position that they can charge loads for but doesn't feel destructive. It also reminds me of facts like "Batman is coming!" etc. The ones next to videos are fine and all the "featured" advertising is great. Featuring actually makes the site more exciting and accessible.
4. Sky subscription for the TV is fine as recording is so easy and needed due to timetables. Then you can fast-forward the adverts but you still see them enough to catch a trailer of interest for example and hit play. That's great.
I really hate:
1. The YouTube adverts inside videos. I'm still only able to use the site at the moment because not every video has adverts. Even with the idea of skipping 5secs later is too much as I'm speed viewing videos sometimes and even keep seeing the same advert (being forced to watch). It's painful even for secs. A 5sec ad, 10sec viewing and decide the video is rubbish, next video, 5sec ad...
2. Google Adsense. I liked the initial idea of less obstruction, but it seems to be the exact opposite. How websites incorporate them deep into the content etc is annoying. I really dislike how Google is playing that game themselves. I have family & friends that still click on Google search result advertising believing they are clicking on a legit result. These also tend to have encrypted URLs.
3. Overkill... I was excited about being able to VPN to Hulu and watch shows as they are aired as TV is behind here. But I just couldn't handle all the adverts your forced to watch. Especially because of the ratio to the show. But they have a PRO option at cost which I thought would remove the Adverts, but unfortunately not. I don't really want to go further and pay to view adverts.
I do think it's a shame with Ubuntu advertising because I see the OS as home and the Browser as going out
Adverts in the browser are fine. Seeing advertising boards etc outside is fine. But putting leaflets through the door is horrible.
That turned into a large post. lol. I don't use Ubuntu much.
P.s I think it's a shame when you buy tech that have stickers on that ruin them. I bought an Acer monitor, for instance, by its self and it had a Microsoft sticker on that also just won't come off without leaving a really bad mark.
You sound like a KICC fake pastor!
I just replaced my Ubuntu with Linux Mint Debian Xfce version, gonna see how it works out
I went for arch with lxde recently. Can't say i miss any of the bloat of ubuntu or unity/kde. I never used any of that crap anyway. It sucks on VPSs though, no current templates if any, and huge PITA to upgrade, so debian stays my favorite on servers.
I sometimes wonder how it would be without Debian...
I admit their "non-free" crap is annoying as hell sometimes, it is definitely worse than the one-line removal of ads from ubuntu, but at least has a reason I can understand as a maniac myself, while the ads thing on Ubuntu will end up hurting both users and company.
Bad, bad move...
M