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A registrar should be liable for content behind a domain
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A registrar should be liable for content behind a domain

http://torrentfreak.com/domain-registrars-face-piracy-liability-after-court-ruling-141106/

In a case brought by Universal Music over the album Blurred Lines, a Court of Appeal decision in Germany has determined that domain registrars can be held liable for the infringements of their customers. Universal's lawfirm informs TorrentFreak that the decision gives rightsholders new tools in their fight against online piracy.

For the record, it is at a German court and it appears to be the German branch of Universal Music against a German registrar, so it is rather something of "local" thing but the decision is still somewhat ridiculous and potentially dangerous, particularly for other similar rulings in the future in the EU.

Even if you ignore the usual fact that the site didnt host or serve any questionable content but was only an intermediary providing a sort of "pointers", and so didnt infringe any rights in the first place (I know this could be defined nitpicking, but thats what it often comes down in legal cases), they should have gone after the hoster and not the registrar.

The issue (we still and deliberately ignore aforementioned fact that no actual content was hosted) was the the data they stored and transmitted on/from/to their servers and so the plaintiff should have naturally needed to go after the hoster. The domain and its registrar however are completely unrelated.

Whats next? Sueing the companies where the owners of the site might have had an unrelated full-time job? Sueing their parents for supporting them? Sueing power companies for providing electricity? Sueing a restaurant for selling food to the alleged "criminals"?

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Comments

  • @alessio said:
    the decision is still somewhat ridiculous

    Agreed.

  • where does it end and what will it look like?

    Thanked by 1AnthonySmith
  • OK, IANAL, but I have to ask:

    If an apartment owner (host) has a tenant (site) who engages in illegal activities, is the apartment owner liable for the illegal activities?

    If the Post Office (registrar) assigns an address (domain) to a house (host), and the people living in the house (site) engage in illegal activities, is the Post Office liable for the illegal activities?

    Finding real-world comparisons to the online world can sometimes be difficult, but honestly, in this case, it doesn't seem to be rocket science.

  • This is stupid.

    Thanked by 2rmlhhd ATHK
  • @wych said:
    This is stupid.

    Stupid, but the encroachment on rights, and frivolous lawsuits will continue to get worse. Money can make a lot of things happen that shouldn't.

  • Sounds to me like they did go after the site operator, and the site operator ignored them. So they went to the registrar (why did they skip the host?), who then contacted the site operator, who ignored the registrar, and so then the registrar had to delete the dns records.

    So I still don't agree with the decision, but it's not as bad as I first thought.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    So, as expected a lot of small registrars will close and the whole business will be run by GoDaddy. Finally.
    Actually, the more restrictions there are, the more ways will be found around them, and, when the mesh internet will start, be it over android devices or on top of layer7, sort of speak, fully encrypted, with decentralized dns and made up tlds or any other handle, i am sure people in power will regret it.
    Only outlawing encryption could reasonably put an end to it, but still the amount of work to sniff all that traffic and see who is talking to who, is not conceivable today even with automated tools, especially if people make routing inconsistent, i.e. a few packets that way, a few the other way, and they will still be assembled correctly at the destination.
    Nope, this will help the underground grow. Facebook makes use of Tor. Soon, more people will use it or make own version, perhaps better.

  • Mark_RMark_R Member
    edited November 2014

    @Maounique said:
    So, as expected a lot of small registrars will close and the whole business will be run by GoDaddy. Finally.
    Actually, the more restrictions there are, the more ways will be found around them, and, when the mesh internet will start, be it over android devices or on top of layer7, sort of speak, fully encrypted, with decentralized dns and made up tlds or any other handle, i am sure people in power will regret it.
    Only outlawing encryption could reasonably put an end to it, but still the amount of work to sniff all that traffic and see who is talking to who, is not conceivable today even with automated tools, especially if people make routing inconsistent, i.e. a few packets that way, a few the other way, and they will still be assembled correctly at the destination.
    Nope, this will help the underground grow. Facebook makes use of Tor. Soon, more people will use it or make own version, perhaps better.

    yeah and what if Tor gets backdoored or f*cked? whats the alternative?

    if we all fight against this idiotic thing we wouldnt even need to use Tor.

  • jbarr said: OK, IANAL

    I'm pretty sure you mean IANA.

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • unworkable. domains costs would increase 10x if registrars had to police the web.

  • Mark_R said: if we all fight against this idiotic thing we wouldnt even need to use Tor.

    The problem we face here is not that we are not fighting this it is we are the minority. We understand what is happening but the majority does not and they believe what they are told. For arguments sake I call them sheeples. If you can herd enough of them in one direction you can get what you want. Just like a herd of sheep. They tend to believe what the government tells them, and think the government, or other agency, has their best interest in mind.

    They do not understand, nor do they want to either, that most of their lives are controlled and that they do not have much power at all anymore. This mentality of their has become an epidemic and it is sad to see.

  • Mark_R said: yeah and what if Tor gets backdoored or f*cked? whats the alternative?

    if we all fight against this idiotic thing we wouldnt even need to use Tor.

    Hasn't Tor already been backdoored? I recall certain sites being injected with extremely complicated Javascript a while ago.

  • This is NOT a tor exploit, this is stupid users having JS activated.

    Thanked by 1GIANT_CRAB
  • ricardoricardo Member
    edited November 2014

    stupid

    sounds about right... there's so many ways you can gather data about a person through javascript, which'd defeat the point of trying to be 100% anonymous.

  • @DalekOfSkaro said:
    I'm pretty sure you mean IANA.

    No (without speaking for @jbarr), I am pretty sure he meant what he wrote.

    IANAL = I Am Not A Lawyer

    Thanked by 1netomx
  • @geekalot: Do'oh! I should have thought of that!

  • @DalekOfSkaro said:
    geekalot: Do'oh! I should have thought of that!

    No problem, I know IANA is also valid in the context of the discussions here :)

  • @alexh said:
    Hasn't Tor already been backdoored? I recall certain sites being injected with extremely complicated Javascript a while ago.

    I wouldn't be surprised.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2014

    It is true anything can be backdoored.
    I am pretty sure a citizen's net of some kind of mesh will also be backdoored (if that is a word yet) one way or the other, but it is hard and you need a lot of blackknights to have a less foggish view and the more hops there are, the less likely the chance anything will be intercepted.

    I agree with people not knowing stuff and believing the official propaganda, not so long ago the sheep here were advocating against anonimity and how is that helping criminals. Well, anything can help criminals, you cant forbid water to kill them through thirst, instead police should do more policing and less politics the fight against child porn should not be left for ONGs (which can find the perverts without even basic police powers proving how easy it is if you really want to do it) while police is busy lobbying for more rights against the citizens and special derogation from constitutions and human rights:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24818769

    As long as "drugs", "child porn", "terrorism", "islam" and other terms are enough to make people drop their rights, democracy is lost. Who gives up freedom for security deserves neither and exactly that will get.

  • Maounique said: I agree with people not knowing stuff and believing the official propaganda, not so long ago the sheep here were advocating against anonimity and how is that helping criminals.

    I distinctly remember you in a thread talking about how nodes in a network are like little boxes of magic that you can't be held accountable for. Unfortunately for you, other people (or sheep as you might like to call them), believe in accountability for people's actions. It's probably your democratic right to have your head in the sand :))

    Unfortunately, lawmakers and courts have a hard time keeping up with technology and applying common sense. I'm sure those in the world who are geeky and aware enough would believe this registrars being accountable for content on a domain is unworkable.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    ricardo said: Unfortunately, lawmakers and courts have a hard time keeping up with technology and applying common sense.

    And, since they are handicapped by stupidity, instead of making them bright through elections and advocating more training, we just give them bigger nets to throw around in the idea that the larger the net is, the more criminals will be caught.
    As for accountability, providing a service, either free or paid, should not be a reason to be arrested, even if you know it can be used by criminals, the same way you cannot make public transportation liable for the fact people using it are more anonymous than those which use stolen cars and/or with fake registration plates.

  • I wouldn't call all judges and parliament 'stupid', maybe they just don't spend 18 hours a day in front of a PC and have a more 'balanced' view of life in general that doesn't involve knowing lots of details about somewhat arbitrary and intangible systems that live online.

    They might do well to seek professional advice, but then you have a problem of it being politically impartial.

  • Maounique said: Well, anything can help criminals, you cant forbid water to kill them through thirst

    I agree. It would be similar to stopping the sales of firearms to prevent murder with them. However, like buying a firearm, you must provide specific information when registering a domain. Hosting services vary in how much information they require; I have heard of some that require no information and only allow very specific payment methods. In a way, I think these hosts are irresponsible. Anonymity is great, but not when it enables a person to commit crimes or cause damage to others without fear of persecution.

  • @maounique

    why do you always have to write walls of texts? just be straightforward and come out with your point - people will realize what you stand for or against without having to waste time reading around the bushes.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2014

    Mark_R said: @maounique

    why do you always have to write walls of texts? just be straightforward and come out with your point - people will realize what you stand for or against without having to waste time reading around the bushes.

    I am not talking to the TL;DR people, they are a lost cause anyway, only people who read lots in their lives can really know lots and understand more complicated matters. The ASL and SMS-like writing generation still have lots to learn and I am afraid they wont, they will have to go through wars and social strife before becoming aware of things.

    alexh said: Anonymity is great, but not when it enables a person to commit crimes or cause damage to others without fear of persecution.

    Anonymity enables a lot of things, one of those things is democracy. You cannot be free if you are not anonymous.
    Democracy is not made by parties or celebrities, it is made by billions of John and Jane Doe. Democracy does not serve the elites and celebrities, it only serves the masses. Safety is in numbers, when you can be easily singled out, democracy ends.
    Because anyone who is advocating something the elites dont like will be eliminated, physically if "teaching a few lessons" does not work, dont expect anyone to rise against the state for arresting someone who "skips taxes" or is a "child abuser" or "terrorist" or even member of a banned party. Everyone will say "ha, and he was trying to fool us posing as a democracy activist" then go back to their grazing.

  • @Maounique said:
    I am not talking to the TL;DR people, they are a lost cause anyway, only people who read lots in their lives can really know lots and understand more complicated matters. The ASL and SMS-like writing generation still have lots to learn and I am afraid they wont, they will have to go through wars and social strife before becoming aware of things.

    That's a nice way of justifying writing alot of bullshit to make the main point lost in walls of texts.

    Thanked by 2alessio Nekki
  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran

    As I said, it does not concern you, you should skip my posts altogether.

    Thanked by 2netomx tehdartherer
  • ricardoricardo Member
    edited November 2014

    I'll interject then. Quite simply IMO, the registrar is not where the focus should be, though the registrars could go a little further in validating that registrants do indeed have valid details. From the technical standpoint IMO, registrars are not the answer to the problem, although they may have a small part to contribute towards a solution.

    These threads seem to devolve into a simplistic and deterministic philosophy where you go further up the chain and say "well, would these people be accountable since they were an accessory?". Blame the registrar, blame the host, blame the upstream provider... ultimately at the top of the chain it's the law, and we know that they're not too good at discerning the facts and making 'common sense' decisions.

    If you want to hammer home the deterministic argument, then you're arguing against free-will and the ability to make a choice. It seems one or two lack the understanding that there is a duality in that.

    The various layers of services and datapoints (registrar, hosts, networks, encryption, fraud) might blur the lines of who is knowingly accountable but that shouldn't stop criminals being pursued. The 'net isn't a playground for breaking the rules.

    There isn't a simple answer to the problem, but there is a problem.

    Here's a thread where you'll get 100 posts saying "arf arf, dumb law lolz" but not so much about a workable solution. From my POV, transparency in knowing who is behind a machine simplifies things, a lot.

  • MaouniqueMaounique Host Rep, Veteran
    edited November 2014

    The workable solution is clear. I pointed it out there, and here too:

    IF the police would do their job, online as well as offline, with undercover operations, informants, using the tipoffs from NGOs and other people which would really work towards stopping crime not advocate more power to the police, then the problem is solved.

    Read again a simple NGO without any special powers in 10 weeks found at least 1000 perverts breaching the law. How many policemen, prosecutors and judges paid by us and with exceptional powers and resources are needed to do the same thing in 100 weeks? You have the answer to the "problem" once you do the math. Police work will stop crime online or offline, police politics and police states never solved anything, only made matters worse.

    Thanked by 1netomx
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