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LET Non-Systemd Thread
A few guys seem to be enjoying our LET BSD Thread.
Over there in the BSD thread, @jsg mentioned using a Linux distribution which lacks systemd.
Of course, BSD is similar to the non-systemd Linux distributions in that . . . both lack the goodness of systemd and, instead of systemd, use shell scripts for boot time configuration.
It's amazed me how thoroughly systemd has taken over all the Linux distros which have the highest adoption.
I remember all the fuss when systemd "took over" Debian, even though, last I looked, it still seemed possible to set up and run Debian without systemd. But, has anyone here actually done that? Does anyone here know anyone who recently has set up Debian without systemd?
Have you ever wanted to install a non-systemd distribution and found yourself excluded from your favorite Providers because they didn't offer any installs without systemd? Do we have some good Low End Providers who do offer non-systemd installs?
Do we have some Slackware fans? How about Devuan fans? Void fans? Alpine fans? Has anybody here tried Sabotage? For Sabotage, please see also http://sabo.xyz/ . What about other non-systemd distros?
Thanks!
Comments
I just learned of Void Linux this week due to a customer installing it from ISO and needing some network help. I had never heard of it before, so looked into it. Seems to have a fairly active community behind it.
sudo dpkg --remove --force-all systemdAlpine, Arch and Debian fans here.
Check out Devuan - a fork of Debian without systemd.
Long term Debian user and I still run ALL of my non-Proxmox Debian systems without systemd. My Proxmox setups still use systemd (unfortunately, resulting in my having to go out of my way to customize things to work as nicely as possible with systemd).
A while back I tried unlinking Proxmox from Systemd and ran out of time (to hack/experiment) and so moved on to other pressing problems in life... (but it seemed possible and not too tightly bound to systemd FWIW).
It is definitely getting harder and harder though - because a lot of packages are now abandoning sysvinit (equivalent) (and don't even provide init scripts some times - very frustrating).
P.S: Disclaimer - I do have
libsystemd0installed to satisfy package dependencies.Why so much rage against systemd? Just learn it and that’s it. The same goes with netplan.
How do you do your non-systemd Debian installs?
Google found for me this discussion on HN:
Installing Debian bookworm without systemd
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36786494
which points to
Installing Debian bookworm without systemd
https://diziet.dreamwidth.org/15336.html
written by Ian Jackson, who, if I remember, used to be Debian Project Leader.
It does too many things everywhere all at once. It also seems to go against the *nix philosophy of doing one (or a few) things well and tries to do everything for you which I (and many others) seem to dislike (quite strongly). But each to one's own I guess.
I usually start with a minimal install and then install what I need (if I'm really starting from scratch). I have a "templatified" setup that I just copy (rsync) over and customize from there (minimal changes) and I'm up and running. Over time, this template has things that I need and have tweaked to suit my tastes/needs.
There is always
dpkg --get-selections > saved-package-list.txtanddpkg --set-selections < saved-package-list.txtto help you get back to a baseline of installed packages (though customizing them could be a task in itself).You make it sound like it was a good thing which a few distros sadly don't have. It does not 'lack' the poettering pestilence but rather is not infected by it.
And again and even harder; "lack the goodness of systemd" ... that just so happened to drive millions of loyal and longterm e.g. debian users away and also just so happens to have been driven largely by a certain large corporation ... wow, so much of goodness ...
Not at all. For mainly 2 reasons: (a) see my sig, and (b) most users just want an auto-install OS with maybe a few screws to fiddle with. As long as clicking "install" works and their distro superficially looks and feels like that distro they'll just continue to use it.
I certainly don't. debian was nice while it still was debian (also in spirit) but when they infested themselves it simply was easier and more sensible to switch to FreeBSD (obviously the cathedral is way more unlikely to care about nonsense trends than the bazaar). A while later I was very pleased to see that some debianistas had kept the original spirit alive (and their brains intact) and had created Devuan, a debian without the poettering cancer, and since then I'm a happy "real debian" (Devuan) user.
No, because (a) I rarely ever use linux on servers, (b) whatever OS I install, is installed from ISO (and not from template), and (c) all my favourite providers do offer ISO installs.
Yes, here. I once was a big slackware fan (and still like it a lot) and I also like Alpine a lot. If I had to install a server with linux chances are it would be Alpine. In my eyes anyone with some knowledge and desire for a reasonable level of security uses Free|Open BSD or, if it must be linux Alpine (on servers). But then, in my view a mature and reasonable admin also doesn't have X or any kind of GUI on a server (or a toy like Ubuntu). For normal private users though, no limits (but also in terms of harm).
MX Linux with its amazing tools and Debian base does not use systemd, but you can choose to use it If you want.
I’d probably be one of you guys if I had just entered the scene a little earlier
No Gentoo mentioned?
Sounds great! You have everything well organized! Up until recently I've been just starting from scratch each time -- the minimal install. Now I have a list of the packages I want to install and also some source code links together with compiling.
I've always been pretty good about backups. But, when I can, I want to be in a place where an accident can happen or I deliberately can wipe everything -- and then I can reinstall automagically -- or something like that.
A guy I know tells a story about being on the BSD side one night when a major upgrade happened for the Windows and BSD computers at a big bank in New York. The BSD guys scripted the upgrade and went out to dinner while their script executed. The Windows guys had to stay at their desks and were still upgrading when the BSD guys returned from dinner to check that their script had executed properly.
Being able to replace everything automagically at any time kinda seems like a good idea. I've never got that far, but it's a goal. . . .
Nifty! Very cool!
Thanks for sharing about how you do your installs!
Aaarrrrggghhh!!!! My bad!!!!! Sorry! Thank you for the correction!
I've used Debian for almost all my servers since long before systemd, and have continued to use a minimal Debian install and avoid using systemd for anything other than basic default services until this year.
Finally a few months ago, I gave in and learned some systemd basics and have started using it for a few new custom services.
I think I understand what you meant, that if you had entered before systemd, you probably still would be a non-systemd user.
While it's not responsive to what I think you meant, I can't resist saying that you are one of us. We all are here together!
And it's still not too late to try at least one or maybe even a few of the BSDs and non-systemd Linux distributions. Even Plan 9 is still around if you want to try it.
Thanks for your comment! Do you remember exactly what it was that pushed you over the line?
Thank you! I just might!
(Actually, seriously considered testing a BSD in my spare time, probably won't completely switch to it professionally anytime soon because of Docker, but I'd love to learn more about it anyway)
And yes, exactly right, that's just what I meant. I got started with Linux sometime 2014-2015 (CentOS, then Ubuntu, then Debian, and now mainly Ubuntu again), I wasn't aware of any of the debates, I just remember using systemd to handle Apache, had I started maybe just a few months earlier, I'd probably know a lot more about the differences by now
@Not_Oles I always learn something new and fascinating reading your threads. No one else makes me want to respond just as much. Even more, I don’t know what to say.
Why? My life is Ubuntu and I don’t think I can live without systemd? Why would I? Just the questions I ask myself.
Hi @huntercop!
Thanks for your kind comment! Like you, I often don't know what to say. Like it seems for you, questions are more interesting to me than answers. Answers always turn out to need adjustment in some way or another. But the questions are eternal. /s
I want to comment about your signature. I'm sitting here with intense desert sun flooding in through the windows. The air conditioner is running. But the season is changing. In a few days or a few weeks more, it will be okay to go outside and relax in the very warm and comfortable Winter sunshine. I look forward to walking around outside some more, for a few months, until it gets super hot again.
Have fun with Ubuntu and systemd! Or with whatever else you try!
Best wishes!
Tom
I accept systemd and it is what it is, it isn't too much different from init..
Netplan though.. No, absolutely not. It is very complex to do simple network configurations, proven by needing a syntax checker to 'check-your-work' to confirm it is a valid configuration.
I can switch to a busybox shell during an OS install and free-hand an interfaces file with nano or vi(m), can not do the same for Netplan.
For me its require more steps to supervise the systemd service(s) and also their added complexity on systemd daemon (its more like
setsid, but dunno what name on systemd was).Because that its pretty hard to me track daemonized process, and somehow service tracking still "tracking" old pidfile.
Also their tend to (ab)use any single non-portable approach on their hand and no, making additional quirk shell script under systemd was hard than looks like as my experience.
Nothing in particular really. I had to replace a third party systemd service with my own custom service and decided it was convenient to keep using systemd for it, so that I wouldn't have to change my ansible playbook or anything else related to it.
I've held out this long, but systemd is here to stay, so I might as well start getting used to it.
That was why I accepted it too.
It was becoming a bigger issue to fight it than it was to accept/learn it.
There is a variety of linux distros available without the poettering cancer.
But one is free of course to fulfill the plan of cancer man and the corporations behind him. And that (what you wrote) was the plan.