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US Gov't wants invasive know-your-customer regulations for cloud providers - Page 2
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US Gov't wants invasive know-your-customer regulations for cloud providers

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Comments

  • @SirFoxy said:

    @10thHouse said:

    @SirFoxy said:
    As an American, the US needs more regulations when it comes to the hosting industry.

    Hosts need to start being held accountable for intentionally looking the other way. We have foreigners like @Francisco coming here to open anonymous LLCs in Wyoming and take advantage of our laws to fatten their own pockets and make the world worse in the process.

    Other guys like @MannDude who advertise "not knowing their customer" attract the exact type of shitters you would expect. Phishing, copyright infringement, hate speech.

    Real businesses don't give a single fuck about showing KYC because they don't do anything illegal.

    "Legal" doesn't equal moral, and even if the law and the government were perfect, laws and governments change. The rights to privacy and anonymity are our ONLY bulwarks against complete totalitarian control. Absolutely, there are bad apples who take advantage of anonymous services, and that isn't right. But the cost of stamping them by introducing ridiculous KYC requirements out would also effectively stamp out the rights to freedom of thought and freedom of speech, while doing little to actually stop the bad actors. (Scammers are generally a low-level threat, so even if their identity is known, they are rarely prosecuted.)

    And as for the ad hominems against @Francisco and @MannDude, I have to ask 1) how has Francisco "made the world worse"? BuyVM, Namecrane, Frantech...all offer quality service for incredibly affordable prices. My only critique is that his products are often out-of-stock, but that's from my consumer POV; it's actually a responsible business decision on his end, since it's better to maintain his good service and keep his stock in order, than to try and expand and compromise quality in the process. And 2) yeah, some of MannDude's customers are phishers, scammers, extremists, etc., but shitty racist forums like Stormfront are hosted on mainstream services like Cloudflare, and most scammers go for the lowest hanging fruits, AKA cheap hosting, which is basically never anonymous.

    Check Stormfront's hosting:

    https://hosting-checker.net/websites/www.stormfront.org

    Many scammers use Namecheap, Godaddy, Cloudflare, etc. and other mainstream hosting providers (also worth noting that even supposedly anonymous providers like Shinjiru only accept BTC for crypto, not a truly anonymous coin like XMR or bitcoin cash, meaning that the identities of particularly egregious scammers could still be traced in theory):

    https://www.cybercrimeinfocenter.org/top-20-hosting-providers-by-phishing-domains

    Like I said before: KYC doesn't stop bad actors from acting, and you can't expect hateful people to disappear just because you ask for a phone number, either. Your point about hate speech also begs me to ask: how do you define hate speech? My definition might look entirely different, and the gray area that exists between our two points of view is where the necessity for anonymous, non-KYC services and platforms emerges. Because if you think that hate speech specifically "incites violent actions against a certain demographic", and I think that hate speech is something that just "makes someone of a certain demographic feel bad", then if either of us got into power alongside a bloc of likeminded people, either of us could decide that the other's opinions about what constitutes "hate speech" must be made illegal, and its perpetrators, fined, imprisoned, or otherwise punished. A website contesting that legislative decision would thus jeopardize its creator's safety, and you wouldn't want that to be you, would you?

    On this thread, I see a bunch of foreigners and kids like @BruhGamer12 with anime girl profile pictures asking for internships. It's hardly worth a response, but I'll bite.

    I don't mind providing my ID for a VPS at all if it's going to stop the next school shooting etc. from happening. The United States government needs to do more immediately (less thoughts and prayers) in an increasingly divided and radicalized country.

    The idea of making criminals easier to identify won't help prevent crimes is simply not true, you're welcome to feel otherwise.

    And when guys like Francisco or Curtis choose to host another hate speech forum for money, they are contributing to this. Accepting money to look the other way to things like hate speech and copyright infringement is simply not something I would allow myself to do ethically.

    These people have choices every day. These businesses have an ethical responsibility for everything they platform, and saying it's not your place to judge is 100% a cop-opt.

    You need to know your customer. This is especially true in the hosting industry.

    You know if you are such a grown up adult you don't need to attack the character of people like me and could instead respond to the argument you quoted lol. But in that you think anonymous VPS are the reasons for shootings in the US? You know that 4chan, reddit, YouTube, Discord, vast majority of online forums, - places that do the overwhelming majority of any radicalization do not run on anonymous VPSes lol. Like as the person you replied to said those alt right forums are already hosted on big name providers that already kyc. This is because requiring KYC does not prevent a host from allowing a radical or hate speech filled site. Those are clearly protected by the first amendment in the overwhelming vast majority of cases. Sure im sure there are so no name forums that barely anyone uses that may not do KYC inside the US and also not switch out from a US host to a foreign host and just instead shut down. Although I bet that number is very few. Nothing what you said about mass shootings or whatever would be prevented from getting rid of US based providers not requiring KYC. It seems towards the end of your argument you acknowledge these are ethical choices instead of legal so what's the point of even bringing up mass shootings in the US as far as anonymous hosting goes?

    Thanked by 110thHouse
  • 10thHouse10thHouse Member
    edited April 24

    @SirFoxy said:

    @10thHouse said:

    @SirFoxy said:
    As an American, the US needs more regulations when it comes to the hosting industry.

    Hosts need to start being held accountable for intentionally looking the other way. We have foreigners like @Francisco coming here to open anonymous LLCs in Wyoming and take advantage of our laws to fatten their own pockets and make the world worse in the process.

    Other guys like @MannDude who advertise "not knowing their customer" attract the exact type of shitters you would expect. Phishing, copyright infringement, hate speech.

    Real businesses don't give a single fuck about showing KYC because they don't do anything illegal.

    "Legal" doesn't equal moral, and even if the law and the government were perfect, laws and governments change. The rights to privacy and anonymity are our ONLY bulwarks against complete totalitarian control. Absolutely, there are bad apples who take advantage of anonymous services, and that isn't right. But the cost of stamping them by introducing ridiculous KYC requirements out would also effectively stamp out the rights to freedom of thought and freedom of speech, while doing little to actually stop the bad actors. (Scammers are generally a low-level threat, so even if their identity is known, they are rarely prosecuted.)

    And as for the ad hominems against @Francisco and @MannDude, I have to ask 1) how has Francisco "made the world worse"? BuyVM, Namecrane, Frantech...all offer quality service for incredibly affordable prices. My only critique is that his products are often out-of-stock, but that's from my consumer POV; it's actually a responsible business decision on his end, since it's better to maintain his good service and keep his stock in order, than to try and expand and compromise quality in the process. And 2) yeah, some of MannDude's customers are phishers, scammers, extremists, etc., but shitty racist forums like Stormfront are hosted on mainstream services like Cloudflare, and most scammers go for the lowest hanging fruits, AKA cheap hosting, which is basically never anonymous.

    Check Stormfront's hosting:

    https://hosting-checker.net/websites/www.stormfront.org

    Many scammers use Namecheap, Godaddy, Cloudflare, etc. and other mainstream hosting providers (also worth noting that even supposedly anonymous providers like Shinjiru only accept BTC for crypto, not a truly anonymous coin like XMR or bitcoin cash, meaning that the identities of particularly egregious scammers could still be traced in theory):

    https://www.cybercrimeinfocenter.org/top-20-hosting-providers-by-phishing-domains

    Like I said before: KYC doesn't stop bad actors from acting, and you can't expect hateful people to disappear just because you ask for a phone number, either. Your point about hate speech also begs me to ask: how do you define hate speech? My definition might look entirely different, and the gray area that exists between our two points of view is where the necessity for anonymous, non-KYC services and platforms emerges. Because if you think that hate speech specifically "incites violent actions against a certain demographic", and I think that hate speech is something that just "makes someone of a certain demographic feel bad", then if either of us got into power alongside a bloc of likeminded people, either of us could decide that the other's opinions about what constitutes "hate speech" must be made illegal, and its perpetrators, fined, imprisoned, or otherwise punished. A website contesting that legislative decision would thus jeopardize its creator's safety, and you wouldn't want that to be you, would you?

    On this thread, I see a bunch of foreigners and kids like @BruhGamer12 with anime girl profile pictures asking for internships. It's hardly worth a response, but I'll bite.

    I don't mind providing my ID for a VPS at all if it's going to stop the next school shooting etc. from happening. The United States government needs to do more immediately (less thoughts and prayers) in an increasingly divided and radicalized country.

    The idea of making criminals easier to identify won't help prevent crimes is simply not true, you're welcome to feel otherwise.

    And when guys like Francisco or Curtis choose to host another hate speech forum for money, they are contributing to this. Accepting money to look the other way to things like hate speech and copyright infringement is simply not something I would allow myself to do ethically.

    These people have choices every day. These businesses have an ethical responsibility for everything they platform, and saying it's not your place to judge is 100% a cop-opt.

    You need to know your customer. This is especially true in the hosting industry.

    "If I do KYC, I can prevent the next school shooting" is some pretty catastrophic logic. I'm not sure you'd feel the same way about your willingness to hand over an ID if you were an Iranian trying to host an anti-IRGC website in Iran. Americans really are privileged in not understanding that their government and society are not immune to sliding into the same totalitarian decay as countries elsewhere.

    To your point on radicalism, more surveillance that leads to more censorship and control isn't the answer. Unless you believe that total crackdown on freedom of expression and subsequent manhandling of any dissenters is the way to deal with polarization, in which case, America would have totally given up on its founding principles, and I have more faith in America than that.

    To your point on identifying criminals, I don't disagree that making them easier to identify will make them more hesitant to commit crimes. But I said it simply wouldn't stop them. I also never said that criminals are the main benefactors of anonymous hosting. Free speech, and the simple right to privacy and anonymity are the selling points that we as a community should care most about.

    I'm also not buying your logic re: Francisco and Curtis/MannDude, because 1) hate speech is again an ambiguous term, in a more "polite" society, anything, even our civil disagreement here could be regarded as unacceptable speech, and 2) I am not convinced that BuyVM etc or IncogNET constitute even a splash in the pond of hateful and radical content online, most of which is, as I said before, concentrated on mainstream providers, DMs and discord servers, or other centralized platforms like Twitter and Facebook.

    Thanked by 1lothos
  • kevindskevinds Member, LIR

    @SirFoxy said:
    I don't mind providing my ID for a VPS at all if it's going to stop the next school shooting etc. from happening. The United States government needs to do more immediately (less thoughts and prayers) in an increasingly divided and radicalized country.

    Except it won't stop the next school shooting from happening.

  • FranciscoFrancisco Top Host, Host Rep, Veteran

    @10thHouse said: "If I do KYC, I can prevent the next school shooting" is some pretty catastrophic logic.

    KYC doesn't prevent anything. I've had just as many terrible people paying with a verified paypal/cc as I have in crypto/alipay. This law is just trying to name $COUNTRY as the current boogie man.

    On a per capita basis, Alipay's been the cleanest for us.

    Francisco

    Thanked by 310thHouse wdmg lothos
  • @BruhGamer12 said:

    @SirFoxy said:

    @10thHouse said:

    @SirFoxy said:
    As an American, the US needs more regulations when it comes to the hosting industry.

    Hosts need to start being held accountable for intentionally looking the other way. We have foreigners like @Francisco coming here to open anonymous LLCs in Wyoming and take advantage of our laws to fatten their own pockets and make the world worse in the process.

    Other guys like @MannDude who advertise "not knowing their customer" attract the exact type of shitters you would expect. Phishing, copyright infringement, hate speech.

    Real businesses don't give a single fuck about showing KYC because they don't do anything illegal.

    "Legal" doesn't equal moral, and even if the law and the government were perfect, laws and governments change. The rights to privacy and anonymity are our ONLY bulwarks against complete totalitarian control. Absolutely, there are bad apples who take advantage of anonymous services, and that isn't right. But the cost of stamping them by introducing ridiculous KYC requirements out would also effectively stamp out the rights to freedom of thought and freedom of speech, while doing little to actually stop the bad actors. (Scammers are generally a low-level threat, so even if their identity is known, they are rarely prosecuted.)

    And as for the ad hominems against @Francisco and @MannDude, I have to ask 1) how has Francisco "made the world worse"? BuyVM, Namecrane, Frantech...all offer quality service for incredibly affordable prices. My only critique is that his products are often out-of-stock, but that's from my consumer POV; it's actually a responsible business decision on his end, since it's better to maintain his good service and keep his stock in order, than to try and expand and compromise quality in the process. And 2) yeah, some of MannDude's customers are phishers, scammers, extremists, etc., but shitty racist forums like Stormfront are hosted on mainstream services like Cloudflare, and most scammers go for the lowest hanging fruits, AKA cheap hosting, which is basically never anonymous.

    Check Stormfront's hosting:

    https://hosting-checker.net/websites/www.stormfront.org

    Many scammers use Namecheap, Godaddy, Cloudflare, etc. and other mainstream hosting providers (also worth noting that even supposedly anonymous providers like Shinjiru only accept BTC for crypto, not a truly anonymous coin like XMR or bitcoin cash, meaning that the identities of particularly egregious scammers could still be traced in theory):

    https://www.cybercrimeinfocenter.org/top-20-hosting-providers-by-phishing-domains

    Like I said before: KYC doesn't stop bad actors from acting, and you can't expect hateful people to disappear just because you ask for a phone number, either. Your point about hate speech also begs me to ask: how do you define hate speech? My definition might look entirely different, and the gray area that exists between our two points of view is where the necessity for anonymous, non-KYC services and platforms emerges. Because if you think that hate speech specifically "incites violent actions against a certain demographic", and I think that hate speech is something that just "makes someone of a certain demographic feel bad", then if either of us got into power alongside a bloc of likeminded people, either of us could decide that the other's opinions about what constitutes "hate speech" must be made illegal, and its perpetrators, fined, imprisoned, or otherwise punished. A website contesting that legislative decision would thus jeopardize its creator's safety, and you wouldn't want that to be you, would you?

    On this thread, I see a bunch of foreigners and kids like @BruhGamer12 with anime girl profile pictures asking for internships. It's hardly worth a response, but I'll bite.

    I don't mind providing my ID for a VPS at all if it's going to stop the next school shooting etc. from happening. The United States government needs to do more immediately (less thoughts and prayers) in an increasingly divided and radicalized country.

    The idea of making criminals easier to identify won't help prevent crimes is simply not true, you're welcome to feel otherwise.

    And when guys like Francisco or Curtis choose to host another hate speech forum for money, they are contributing to this. Accepting money to look the other way to things like hate speech and copyright infringement is simply not something I would allow myself to do ethically.

    These people have choices every day. These businesses have an ethical responsibility for everything they platform, and saying it's not your place to judge is 100% a cop-opt.

    You need to know your customer. This is especially true in the hosting industry.

    You know if you are such a grown up adult you don't need to attack the character of people like me and could instead respond to the argument you quoted lol. But in that you think anonymous VPS are the reasons for shootings in the US? You know that 4chan, reddit, YouTube, Discord, vast majority of online forums, - places that do the overwhelming majority of any radicalization do not run on anonymous VPSes lol. Like as the person you replied to said those alt right forums are already hosted on big name providers that already kyc. This is because requiring KYC does not prevent a host from allowing a radical or hate speech filled site. Those are clearly protected by the first amendment in the overwhelming vast majority of cases. Sure im sure there are so no name forums that barely anyone uses that may not do KYC inside the US and also not switch out from a US host to a foreign host and just instead shut down. Although I bet that number is very few. Nothing what you said about mass shootings or whatever would be prevented from getting rid of US based providers not requiring KYC. It seems towards the end of your argument you acknowledge these are ethical choices instead of legal so what's the point of even bringing up mass shootings in the US as far as anonymous hosting goes?

    You'll notice that our foxy friend didn't bother to consider what I said in accordance with @servers_guru, either (that data leaks and the selling of personal info is another problem that avoiding KYC would snuff out).

    And to the point of what you said, yeah, pretty much. By calling upon school shootings, Foxy is just drawing upon one of the four horsemen of the infopocalypse--in this case, combatting (domestic) terrorism. (For anyone wondering, the four horsemen are child abuse, money laundering, terrorism, and drug dealing. They're boogeymen called upon by corrupt legislators and executives to justify taking away your fundamental rights to freedom of speech, privacy, and anonymity, especially online. That's why bills like the Kids Online Safety Act are named as such; there's little within them that would actually protect kids, but the name tugs at the heartstrings so people support it anyways.)

    Not everyone who invokes the four horsemen has nefarious intentions. I think Foxy is just among the millions of people duped by their invocation, to a point that they themselves resort to that defense.

    Thanked by 1lothos
  • @Neoon said:

    @rider said:

    @rustelekom said: Similar laws already exist in many countries.

    Like in Russia.

    What? They never did a KYC, not even for a .ru domain, neither did any Chinese provider if outside of China.
    They don't even ask for your address.

    >

    While I decry the US government's increasing overreach into their citizens' online activity, as well as the perpetuation of the idea that the USA is the only country with "freedom" or whatever, I also warn against upholding foreign actors as bastions of freedom from what the US is declining into. Sure, Russia and China do not demand KYC for you, because you are not a Russian or a Chinese citizen. But if you were from China, KYC would be built into the very means through which you pay for hosting--they don't need to ask for your phone number, address, or anything else when you pay because they already have that info when you sign up to pay online, which requires routing through centralized platforms like WeChat.

    And for what it's worth, I have considered Russian hosting before, and some of them have started demanding a phone number, maybe in preparation for the laws in process. To my earlier point about hosting an anti-IRGC website in Iran, I know for sure that I would not be allowed to host Kremlin-critical stuff on a Russian VPS, and even that aside, I ultimately didn't sign up.

  • MannDudeMannDude Host Rep, Veteran

    They say this every year.

    Thanked by 1kait
  • qpsqps Member, Host Rep

    I get why they want to do this - in theory, knowing who is paying for a service could assist law enforcement types with investigations. In practice, given how much straw buyer type stuff happens in every other industry that has some kind of buyer verification, I'm not sure why they think it will be any different in hosting.

  • JosephFJosephF Member

    Theoretically, if this became law, how would hosting companies be forced to verify identities?

  • wdmgwdmg Member, LIR

    The requirement to force ID validation will just cause providers to register in other countries and operate elsewhere, perhaps even take advantage of systems like the KY's SEZC structures. It won't do anything to stop crime in any event if that's the goal of it. The cost to maintain a SEZC structure is so inexpensive plus you get residency in KY for 5 year visas, which you can end up naturalizing if you elect to live in KY as well. KY also not being listed on the FATF and EU blacklists have even removed KY from their lists (https://www.ifcreview.com/news/2024/february/cayman-islands-cayman-islands-removed-from-fatf-and-eu-high-risk-lists/), so it's treated with equal respect of other countries and given that most large banks in US/CA/EU have correspondence banks in KY, you don't even have to travel down to the KY to open a corporate bank account or even a personal one. I'm frankly surprised more hosts don't run structures like that already, but oh well.

    Hosts need to start being held accountable for intentionally looking the other way. We have foreigners like @Francisco coming here to open anonymous LLCs in Wyoming and take advantage of our laws to fatten their own pockets and make the world worse in the process.

    I'm positive Francisco pays all the necessary tax, given the fact he's even married and has lived in the US for many years... so how is he taking advantage of the US laws to fatten his pocket? I'd say quite the opposite, he's respecting the US law and he's paying what he owes to the IRS.

    Other guys like @MannDude who advertise "not knowing their customer" attract the exact type of shitters you would expect. Phishing, copyright infringement, hate speech.

    There is a real market for people who just want to be private, and in most circumstances those who want to remain private don't have an agenda except not wanting their information to keep flowing to HIBP & others when their data is breached. You can't fault someone for taking that market and providing a quality service while not wanting to be invasive. That said, I know @MannDude runs a clean shop and does respect the laws of the land.

    Real businesses don't give a single fuck about showing KYC because they don't do anything illegal.

    Again, very very untrue. Do you realize how many "real businesses" like Amazon AWS, Google Cloud, Microsoft Azure, etc. host significant amounts of phishing, malware, even botnets? It's unavoidable due to the nature of the internet, and their abuse queues are far far higher than a host you'd find here to tackle, so wouldn't your logic be reversed that the "real businesses" are actually supporting cybercrime by taking longer to nip the malicious actors?

  • sunnygsunnyg Member
    edited April 26

    Please ELI5. Do we have to give ID to all US hosting companies like Buyvm, reliabliesite, etc? Does it apply to only VPS/servers hosted inside the US or even to US companies reselling services in foreign lands?

  • @sunnyg said:
    Please ELI5. Do we have to give ID to all US hosting companies like Buyvm, reliabliesite, etc? Does it apply to only VPS/servers hosted inside the US or even to US companies reselling services in foreign lands?

    It depends.

    Privacy focused providers would take some measures to avoid being affected. It could be things like moving offices, etc.

    Thanked by 1totally_not_banned
  • siemenssiemens Member

    @SirFoxy said:
    As an American, the US needs more regulations when it comes to the hosting industry.

    Hosts need to start being held accountable for intentionally looking the other way. We have foreigners like @Francisco coming here to open anonymous LLCs in Wyoming and take advantage of our laws to fatten their own pockets and make the world worse in the process.

    Other guys like @MannDude who advertise "not knowing their customer" attract the exact type of shitters you would expect. Phishing, copyright infringement, hate speech.

    Real businesses don't give a single fuck about showing KYC because they don't do anything illegal.

    lmao

    Thanked by 210thHouse shruub
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