New on LowEndTalk? Please Register and read our Community Rules.
All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.
All new Registrations are manually reviewed and approved, so a short delay after registration may occur before your account becomes active.
Comments
If that's a serious argument, you don't actually have a sysadmin.
That makes no sense.
No one used it? Jesus Christ, why do people who don't know fuck all about a topic rhyme off like they know something?
IPv6 seems to be a thing for countries that are struggling with the lack of IPv4 addresses, but it's not a thing in my hometown, Korea.
Though cellular providers now provides limited IPv6 support, none of the ISPs are supporting IPv6 for local internet (Even some of their DCs don't have access to IPv6 resources).
So yeah, IPv6 is not a thing here (due to almost every families having a wireless router), but we'll be glad to see more websites supporting IPv6.
Umm, isn't a lease setting a specific price for specific time and a simple rental would be subject to crazy increases?
GTFO. Could you run your home without port forwarding? I know networks that operated like this a decade ago and it was pure shit and only worse with more of the world doing p2p. Handcuffed experience.
In Canada, with the two biggest ISP's, I get two IPv4 assigned to my account. I used to get 5 with Telus a few years ago.
Perhaps you haven't heard of the margins AWS has vs the rest of the world. The smaller ISP'S of the world do not have the capital to invest in that shit at this point in time.
Sure, but you have no recourse if they decide to yeet your ass. What are you going to do? There's no 'rentals board' in this. They pull your RPKI/IRR records. If that doesn't kill the range they contact upstreams.
Trust me, upstreams don't like getting emailed that their downstreams are hijacking blocks.
If Shaw or Cox forced me to be CGNAT'd without a reasonable option to have a public IP, i'd simply run a 24/7 VPN to a VPS on my own network. I could then port forward all I need, or straight up route a small range down the tunnel to my home router.
Nothing you've said so far invalidates what i've said. Those that have resources are insulated from major market shifts for the most part. Those that don't will be forced to justify their usage and buy on the open market.
Alibaba literally bought a /10 the other week and Amazon buys literally millions of IP's every year. Do you think they're doing that for shits/giggles/epeen? Or do you think they're doing it because they don't think the replacement will be ready in a reasonable time?
Francisco
FWIW and FYI: South-Korea is one of the more pampered countries wrt IP4. Their rate of IP4s per 1000 people is in the 2000s (in the top-5 IIRC), so the pressure on the SK providers is highly likely rather low.
You can advertise whatever you want. It might not propagate very far, but depending on where the route is originated, and to whom, the peering policies and filtering in place, you can find small prefixes passed around fairly regularly. There is no official BGP police to stop you from doing it. Only etiquette and operational practice limits it. Also see: https://www.cidr-report.org/as2.0/as-ms-prefixes.txt
Neither. Until the tipping point where the majority of systems are dual-stacked they need IPv4 to grow. Prudence demands buying them now before prices truly get ridiculous.
When prices will get ridiculous, the market will disappear.
The oil producers have the same dilemma. Stop production and push prices higher but lose market share and drive renewables to eat into the total market even more, or open up production at the risk of lowering the price but keep the world hooked?
When the IP prices will grow, there will be more released into the market, eventually there will be a tipping point, though, it is inevitable.
No, that would mean my 2nd point of "we are a long way to an alternative". Dual stack isn't an alternative, it's transitionary.
Again, i'm all for progress in this stuff, but its a long ways out. V4 is going to be here for my life time, probably yours too.
We'll see /26's in the global routing table before V6 can be single stacked without it being a meme.
Francisco
Your best case scenario is 10 years. I think you are not that old.
The problem with the market is that it beats laziness. Sure, at this time IPv4 prices are affordable, 2 Eur a month is nothing, a coffee in many places, but in others that is more than a person has to live a day on.
SH smart phones are already cheaper than an IPv4 for a year so, sooner or later, I think when prices will increase about 10 folds of now, only some people will afford one and there will be gateways provider side to redirect to some IPv4 only parts of the net rather than dual stack at the end user level.
Even Tor can be used for this purpose.
When that happens, the market for IPv4 will finally collapse. I hope you sold your stash by then.
I said going away all together. We're at least 10 years away from V6 being > 60% I bet. Google/Facebook's V6 stats are warped since they're both mobile heavy.
V4 is all front loaded cost. Any CEO that goes to their board and says "I think we should lose even 1% of our sales, to offset us having to spend a one-time cost, and a minimal renewal cost, on IP's". That's a CEO that's going to be fired before the end of the week.
The RIR's can't just start jacking up rates either. They have to justify any increase they propose. "We are increasing pricing to push v6 transition" isn't justification, that's politics.
The RIR's jobs are to handle allocating of numbers, that's it. They can promote V6 all they want, but they can't hinder V4 (be it cost or whatever reason) to get there. That's not their job.
The minute RIR's start trying to force market changes, is the day those leaders get voted out.
Francisco
Prices for what, they are out of IPs and not selling them anyway. Hoarders are controlling the supply, the RIRs can, in extremis, claw back unused ranges, but that is limited in many ways.
Yes, as long as the prices are reasonable, but if the 1% of sales profits are 20 times less than the cost with the IPs things will be different.
At this time the cost can be passed to the end user easily because are small, when an IP will be 10-20 Eur a month, that wont be that easy and the giants, even with unlimited supply of IPv4 will still have to rollout IPv6 because many of the visitors will have trouble accessing their services otherwise. They may not care about India, Myanmar, Japan, etc, right now, but, sooner or later, they will have to factor those users in.
If, on the other hand, each country will build a firewall and lock themselves out, the market will be irrelevant, they can make up any internal allocation system with NAT and whatever outside.
RIPE ran out last month. Up until then you could get a /24 at any time, just pay the LIR fee. You could even make many sub LIR's and each gets a /24 without justification. There's an open discussion on the RIPE mailing list about the excessive abuse that happened due to that policy.
Francisco
And, as I have said, they can, in some conditions, claw back some allocations, therefore never really "run out". They opted out of it because they want to speed out ipv6, not because they cant do anything about it.
It doesnt mean they sell anything.
Apologies. I read "because they don't think the replacement will be ready in a reasonable time" as saying there wasn't an alternative ( which there is obviously ).
That’s fair
who knows, maybe Bezos is a closet ipv4+ advocate.
Francisco
This is contractual issue, not technical.
That's a shitload of hassle and additional failure points. I run VPN on my phone nearly 24/7 and can tell you some services don't work, or don't work well.
I assume it's for annual growth. You'd have to know current utilization and sales forcast to make any judgement other than "they'll use them".
The same can be said about bit coin. Big players buying it up but in some time in the future it'll be replaced with better,faster,cheaper and be worthless.
You literally said "lease", which is a contactual thing. There's minimal hurdles in revoking an IP lease these days. There's also no way for a leaser to force a payment from a leasee.
If someone doesn't pay, you issue a revoke, deals done. You revoke their IRR & RPKI's. If that doesn't handle it, you contact upstreams. Throw a fraud record on the user that people shouldn't lease to them and they're likely fucked with future hosts.
Those corps are buying legacy space in those cases. Alibaba & Amazon both bought large chunks of the 44/8 IP block that was owned by the WIDE project. You can check:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13Kzg8pIJKiIV33WsRwEjvVD9myhDiAFZvOlZ1eGyW4s/edit?usp=sharing to get an idea.
I was off on Alibaba, they took even more.
Francisco
Again, raising prices is part of the lease agreement. One doesn't sign a 10 year lease and price doubles in second year unexpected. The price is known for the duration of the lease. Now, if they terminate it early, then replacing those in a pinch will cost.
Right. But it's expected for anyone with annual growth to keep buying more. It matters more how many customers they have and expect to have than X amount purchased on its own. Opening new data centers, etc
Sure, in a completely fair market that'd be the case. Thing is, IP lease prices have basically doubled inside a year, so suddenly more than a few leasers have renegged and forced a price hike or revoked blocks outright.
You're left with no recourse if the leaser wants that money. It's basically this:
Some back story: we were 'high' priced at $80/month per IP block, up until the start of last year. You could find ranges in the $75/month range still. These days though the "IP Lease" thread on here has everyone now in the $125 - $150/month range. We've brought our end up to $125/month as well, and even hecified is a good bit higher than that ($200/month??).
That only matters on blocks that an RIR controls for the most part. If you can find legacy space you can buy as much/little as you want and the RIR's have no say in the matter.
That's likely why Amazon/etc haven't started running a train on the normie market. Thing is, all those big legacy blocks are getting chewed out. Dupont sold almost all of their's (or already has), GE sold all of their's to AWS, the WIDE block is mostly gone (I also expect AWS to buy even more if allowed to).
Francisco
That describes like 99% of all users, regardless of mobile, computers or servers.
Even github doesn't use ipv6.
I used to support IPv6 on my dns hosting (shared hosting) and automatically added the equivalent AAAA record if the hostname had one. People forgot to change the AAAA record, and only changed the A record then told me I was such a shit host and how much money they lost...
Same with firewalls. They always change iptables but forgets about ip6tables then complain to me why I issued their VPS with IPv6.
And then there's your average tickets about people complaining about DNS lookups not working because they only have 8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4 in their resolver and not the IPv6 version and for some reason linux prefers to do everything over ipv6
It's a mess.
Oh and don't forget about those who like to crash your router by literally using 0.0001% of a /64 that's now a standard. Last time I checked I don't think my router supported 1000000... unique hosts
I guess that is why KS supports only one per MAC
that would be about 2 quadrillions. 1.8 thousands of trillions. 1.8 million of billions.
Isn't setting the correct IP your responsibility for shared hosting? Your complaint makes no sense.
That's how things work, duh. It sounds like if you put the IPV6 DNS like you were supposed to then maybe people would have working service and not complain of bad templates and bad sysadmin.
So, you have a shitty router? It's a router, not a switch.
You don't need ipv6 resolvers to lookup ipv6 addresses.
That is starting to change. From https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-30-enabling-ipv6-support-for-github-pages/
Just a few days ago i tried for freenet and didn't work, had to take it from elsewhere.